General Election 2017 | Cabinet reshuffle: Hunt re-appointed Health Secretary for record third time

[Mozza]

Also, they've written "no one should pay tax if they earn less than the minimum wage". Does this include Council Tax, VAT, etc?

What they should have written is

"no one should pay tax on the part of their earnings, less than the minimum wage". (Maybe someone can write that more clearly).

Now that's a policy I think people can get behind!

Still, the Lib Dems remain the only sensible party

Spoiler

They are cheating it the same way the Tories did, we've lifted x number of people out of tax all together. Every time they said it I wanted the questioner to scream out about VAT rises

 

[Zlatattack]

My main problem with universities isnt the fee's it's whats been taught and the quality of the education received by students.

I have a student loan, my girl friend has a student loan, pretty much everyone i know has a student loan, does it make a difference to my life at all ? not really, the extra few quid ever month would be quite nice but it its hardly noticeable. whats more noticeable is the fact i spent 3 years on a degree ( i got a 2:1 in history) that that basically counts for nothing these days.
i honestly can say the amount of people i know who went to university who have 1sts yet arnt earning enough money to even start paying back their degree who's bosses didn't go to university is in double figures.
the problem is simple, in the past the fact you had a degree counted for something, now unless its a specialised subject where you need a lot of training(eg: Dr, Nurses, Engineer) then the degree is basically worthless and its experience what counts. Yet we arn't telling our kids this in school, and their all going of to uni, studying things like Media, Drama, History, Music...... and coming out of university with a degree that serves no real purpose, with few transferable skills, and basically 3 years behind in experience to their mates who didn't go to uni.
plus the actual courses themselves are laughable, you basically get around 8 hours of lectures, seminars a week, a library card and some assignments. Im heavily dyslexic and am very slow at writing and reading, but i had more then enough time to study, work near full time and drink far more then is healthy, and the amount of work i was set on my course was actually quite heavy compared to my house mates studying media.
yes it would be lovely if education was free, but id rather the mess that is our higher education system be sorted out before we start worrying about fees that don't really effect peoples lives.

With all due respect, you studied history - what did you expect? What practical use has anything you learnt have? What skills have you picked up that someone studying accounting wouldn't have picked up? I've worked in higher education and a lot of the temps I worked with were really bright qualified young people like you, but they had degrees in useuless subjects. History, Art, Philosophy etc. We need an understanding of these things in our society and if you studied these subjects to enrich yourself, then great - but there is no way you'll be getting jobs ahead of someone who studied a specialist subject, or even a non specialist practical subject. Someone who studies Finance or business studies is going to be of more use to a company than someone who studied Music.

This next bit might come across as a little racist, but I think young white people are going wrong by not focusing on STEM subjects, or other practical degrees. 30 years ago, most people didn't go to university, so if you studied history you could still get a job because your degree showed you had a level of knowledge and academic skills the layman didn't. In the last 10-15 years more people than ever have access to a university education. Asians we don't study the arts, we study STEM subjects or practical subjects where there is work at the end. Upper class or upper middle class white kids can afford to study the arts and humanities because firstly they have wealthy parents who'll look after them and secondly because eventually their parents social network will help them get opportunities the rest of us can't get. When low income or middle class white kids go to uni, struggle to pay bills and then study arts or humanities, it's a recipe for disaster. You don't have the connections to get you a job afterwards, you don't learn the specialist knowledge to be seen favourably by employers and you're still stuck with mega bills. You guys need to be a bit stricter with your kids, guide them into practical degrees, I'd have got a class round the head if i told my dad i wanted to study Geography, he'd have bought me an A-Z and a form for a taxi badge!

 

[Dobba]

Yeah I'd have no problem with tuition-free medicine and nursing courses. Probably a few other areas as well.

The philosophy that everyone with a pulse is entitled to a free university education is totally ridiculous, and even more so now given the spread and uptake of worthless degrees. Pissing money up the wall.

But I suppose a manifesto befitting a fringe party is to be expected.

How much did you pay for your education and are you currently in work?

 

[rcoobc]

They are cheating it the same way the Tories did, we've lifted x number of people out of tax all together. Every time they said it I wanted the questioner to scream out about VAT rises

Me and @Nogbadthebad had a good discussion about VAT here.

The long and the short of it is - I do not think it is correct to say increasing VAT hurts the poorest, hardest.

Don't forget a huge chunk of items are zero rated, or rated at 5%.

Take a look at these two BBC images

Spoiler

If you look at who looses the most, purely on how much they earn. Then yes, the poorest are hid hardest. But - if you look at it at who spends the most, it's clear the rich are hit the hardest (even as a percentage of income!)

But that statement is a bit redundant, of course those that spend more, will pay more.

The reality is, it's complicated. But I personally, would rather they raise VAT to 25% and increase the personal allowance to £16k.

 

[Smores]

My main problem with universities isnt the fee's it's whats been taught and the quality of the education received by students.

I have a student loan, my girl friend has a student loan, pretty much everyone i know has a student loan, does it make a difference to my life at all ? not really, the extra few quid ever month would be quite nice but it its hardly noticeable. whats more noticeable is the fact i spent 3 years on a degree ( i got a 2:1 in history) that that basically counts for nothing these days.
i honestly can say the amount of people i know who went to university who have 1sts yet arnt earning enough money to even start paying back their degree who's bosses didn't go to university is in double figures.
the problem is simple, in the past the fact you had a degree counted for something, now unless its a specialised subject where you need a lot of training(eg: Dr, Nurses, Engineer) then the degree is basically worthless and its experience what counts. Yet we arn't telling our kids this in school, and their all going of to uni, studying things like Media, Drama, History, Music...... and coming out of university with a degree that serves no real purpose, with few transferable skills, and basically 3 years behind in experience to their mates who didn't go to uni.
plus the actual courses themselves are laughable, you basically get around 8 hours of lectures, seminars a week, a library card and some assignments. Im heavily dyslexic and am very slow at writing and reading, but i had more then enough time to study, work near full time and drink far more then is healthy, and the amount of work i was set on my course was actually quite heavy compared to my house mates studying media.
yes it would be lovely if education was free, but id rather the mess that is our higher education system be sorted out before we start worrying about fees that don't really effect peoples lives.

I disagree with nearly all of that. History is a always the course with the least hours it isnt a measure of quality its the nature of the subject. Secondly history isn't a waste i know graduates who went into accounting, insurance etc with the big employers. Employers pick up a host of non-related studies like history because it proves the ability to learn, research, convey.

The issue is there's too many graduates and not enough jobs that they want to do. That competition will always exist and not everyone is going to get the job they want.

I don't think it should be free though, thats basically just a tax reduction for those who earn a decent amount. More bursaries for specific subect areas the country needs. How to fix all the robots for one.

 

[Cheesy]

With all due respect, you studied history - what did you expect? What practical use has anything you learnt have? What skills have you picked up that someone studying accounting wouldn't have picked up? I've worked in higher education and a lot of the temps I worked with were really bright qualified young people like you, but they had degrees in useuless subjects. History, Art, Philosophy etc. We need an understanding of these things in our society and if you studied these subjects to enrich yourself, then great - but there is no way you'll be getting jobs ahead of someone who studied a specialist subject, or even a non specialist practical subject. Someone who studies Finance or business studies is going to be of more use to a company than someone who studied Music.

This next bit might come across as a little racist, but I think young white people are going wrong by not focusing on STEM subjects, or other practical degrees. 30 years ago, most people didn't go to university, so if you studied history you could still get a job because your degree showed you had a level of knowledge and academic skills the layman didn't. In the last 10-15 years more people than ever have access to a university education. Asians we don't study the arts, we study STEM subjects or practical subjects where there is work at the end. Upper class or upper middle class white kids can afford to study the arts and humanities because firstly they have wealthy parents who'll look after them and secondly because eventually their parents social network will help them get opportunities the rest of us can't get. When low income or middle class white kids go to uni, struggle to pay bills and then study arts or humanities, it's a recipe for disaster. You don't have the connections to get you a job afterwards, you don't learn the specialist knowledge to be seen favourably by employers and you're still stuck with mega bills. You guys need to be a bit stricter with your kids, guide them into practical degrees, I'd have got a class round the head if i told my dad i wanted to study Geography, he'd have bought me an A-Z and a form for a taxi badge!

I think part of the problem though is that some of the subjects we're talking about, such as, say, History, are generally seen as quite important in school. If you're someone who does History in school and you're incredibly good at it, whereas you struggle in sciences, then you're naturally going to want to go to university to study History. If you want to go to university, of course.

And while STEM subjects may tend to be better in regards to guaranteeing a job, it's not as if more arts-type subjects don't have their merits - I've seen people go into stuff that'd typically be seen as lesser than their STEM equivalents, and ending up doing well because they've applied themselves fantastically, or they've managed to make the right connections.

What is defined as practical varies from person to person: it's all well and good going into a STEM subject, but if you're not any good at that compared to humanities subjects, or it's something you hate with a passion, then you're probably wasting your time. And in a lot of cases it's probably better for people to just not bother with uni at all, but then there's still a bit of a societal expectation, to some extent, for people to go to uni if they're capable of doing so.

 

[Ubik]

The thing about the personal allowance was that they simultaneously cut tax credits and other benefits, so it was a net loss for the lowest whilst having the extra expense of taking less tax from those higher up the income scale.

 

[Mozza]

Me and @Nogbadthebad had a good discussion about VAT here.

The long and the short of it is - I do not think it is correct to say increasing VAT hurts the poorest, hardest.

Don't forget a huge chunk of items are zero rated, or rated at 5%.

Take a look at these two BBC images

Spoiler

If you look at who looses the most, purely on how much they earn. Then yes, the poorest are hid hardest. But - if you look at it at who spends the most, it's clear the rich are hit the hardest (even as a percentage of income!)

But that statement is a bit redundant, of course those that spend more, will pay more.

The reality is, it's complicated. But I personally, would rather they raise VAT to 25% and increase the personal allowance to £16k.

I suspect you are not poor

Many of the poor don't work a full week so these rises in the personal allowance won't help them

 

[Nytram Shakes]

With all due respect, you studied history - what did you expect? What practical use has anything you learnt have? What skills have you picked up that someone studying accounting wouldn't have picked up? I've worked in higher education and a lot of the temps I worked with were really bright qualified young people like you, but they had degrees in useuless subjects. History, Art, Philosophy etc. We need an understanding of these things in our society and if you studied these subjects to enrich yourself, then great - but there is no way you'll be getting jobs ahead of someone who studied a specialist subject, or even a non specialist practical subject. Someone who studies Finance or business studies is going to be of more use to a company than someone who studied Music.

honest answer i was a kid, i had teachers, parents lectures all telling me the same thing, that employers look at the fact you have a degree and the level of education not nessicarily the subject, and while that might have been truw 30 years ago, it wasn't true when i went to university, and it is even less true now, yet kids are still been fed that lie!
Im not in anyway purposing we should stop teaching subjects like history, philosophy, as i agree with you the are important, but the numbers of people studying degrees should be more inline with the numbers of jobs in the field the are studying. Their should also be more transferable skills taught across the bored at university, like basic basic economic, business management, maybe even basic computer programming, so that even students fail to get a job in their chosen field after university, they come out with wide ranging skills and the word graduate actually starts to mean something again.

This next bit might come across as a little racist, but I think young white people are going wrong by not focusing on STEM subjects, or other practical degrees. 30 years ago, most people didn't go to university, so if you studied history you could still get a job because your degree showed you had a level of knowledge and academic skills the layman didn't. In the last 10-15 years more people than ever have access to a university education. Asians we don't study the arts, we study STEM subjects or practical subjects where there is work at the end. Upper class or upper middle class white kids can afford to study the arts and humanities because firstly they have wealthy parents who'll look after them and secondly because eventually their parents social network will help them get opportunities the rest of us can't get. When low income or middle class white kids go to uni, struggle to pay bills and then study arts or humanities, it's a recipe for disaster. You don't have the connections to get you a job afterwards, you don't learn the specialist knowledge to be seen favourably by employers and you're still stuck with mega bills. You guys need to be a bit stricter with your kids, guide them into practical degrees, I'd have got a class round the head if i told my dad i wanted to study Geography, he'd have bought me an A-Z and a form for a taxi badge!

i agree with you on this point to a, though i would say i came from a very working class family and at no point did anyone say you need to study a real subject that you can get a job in.
but i agree that their is a culture problem in this country, not enough people are going to university to study subjects you that basically lead into a career

 

[PedroMendez]

My main problem with universities isnt the fee's it's whats been taught and the quality of the education received by students.

I have a student loan, my girl friend has a student loan, pretty much everyone i know has a student loan, does it make a difference to my life at all ? not really, the extra few quid ever month would be quite nice but it its hardly noticeable. whats more noticeable is the fact i spent 3 years on a degree ( i got a 2:1 in history) that that basically counts for nothing these days.
i honestly can say the amount of people i know who went to university who have 1sts yet arnt earning enough money to even start paying back their degree who's bosses didn't go to university is in double figures.
the problem is simple, in the past the fact you had a degree counted for something, now unless its a specialised subject where you need a lot of training(eg: Dr, Nurses, Engineer) then the degree is basically worthless and its experience what counts. Yet we arn't telling our kids this in school, and their all going of to uni, studying things like Media, Drama, History, Music...... and coming out of university with a degree that serves no real purpose, with few transferable skills, and basically 3 years behind in experience to their mates who didn't go to uni.
plus the actual courses themselves are laughable, you basically get around 8 hours of lectures, seminars a week, a library card and some assignments. Im heavily dyslexic and am very slow at writing and reading, but i had more then enough time to study, work near full time and drink far more then is healthy, and the amount of work i was set on my course was actually quite heavy compared to my house mates studying media.
yes it would be lovely if education was free, but id rather the mess that is our higher education system be sorted out before we start worrying about fees that don't really effect peoples lives.

#2 #3 #4 #5 #6 #7 #8 #9 #10

education system needs to get fixed.

 

[Zlatattack]

I defintely don't mean anything I said as a personal dig at you. You make a very good point, as did Cheesy - young people don't get good advice. Nobody from my family had ever been to uni when I went. I was encouraged to be a Doctor by my parents (as all asian parents do) but i was never smart enough to do that. I ended up picking computer science because GCSE IT was easy and I had a couple of mates who chose the same degree. i landed on my feet out of sheer dumb luck.

Universities could do a better job of making more rounded degrees too. You're right with the idea of a foundation year where you learn some finance and some computing, a bit of business studies. That'd be really useful to someone studying an arts degree when they want to hit the job market. Or maybe they could limit the seats on art subjects and divert resources into STEM subjects? Unfortunately uni's are all about self preservation. Why would you get rid of your unionised arts lecturers to them go out hunting for expensive physics lecturers causing all this upheaval and unrest when students will pay 9K a year either way?

 

[rcoobc]

An interesting way of reducing low-earners tax-on-income, and increase what the high earners pay would be too...

1) Raise the lower earnings limit for employer National Insurance rate from £8160 to £11.5k
2) Reduce the employee National Insurance rate (£8160-£45k) from 12% to 11%.
3) Increase the employer National Insurance rate (£8160+) from 13.8% to 15%.

This would immediately save someone earning £11.5k pa (aka the very poor) £400 a year! Although taking into account Employer's National Insurance contributions, the saving is only £360 a year.

This would immediately save someone earning £45k pa (aka the upper middle class) £730 a year! Although taking into account Employers NI contributions, the saving is only £294 pa.

This would immediately save someone earning £100k pa (aka the rich) £736 a year! Although taking into account Employers NI contributions, they'd be losing £366

What's going on here? We're shifting the cost of the employment from workers to employers... (who then pass the cost back onto employers by not giving them a pay rise, no doubt.) Importantly though, employers National Insurance is the hardest for a employee to claim back in a pension. Someone earning £80k, who puts £10k a year into a SIPP, get's the 40% tax relief, but the 2% National Insurance remains paid, and so does the 13.8%... unless done through salary sacrifice, but this reduces the benefit of employees for using that (and will be banned soon anyway)

 

[Nytram Shakes]

I disagree with nearly all of that. History is a always the course with the least hours it isnt a measure of quality its the nature of the subject. Secondly history isn't a waste i know graduates who went into accounting, insurance etc with the big employers. Employers pick up a host of non-related studies like history because it proves the ability to learn, research, convey.

you see i disagree, yes of course some people with history degrees find their way into those kind of careers, i myself have have ended up been a theatre technician. even though i have no formal training in it i just grabbed any job i could get and worked my ass of to learn and move up, and i find myself on a regular bases turning Technical Threatre graduates away for even volunteer work becuase their just isn't enough work for the amount of graduates in that field, and to be honest most of them are less well educated than the apprentice we have had becuase the way they are been taught is so poor. The point being the degree counts for very little these days. Back 30 years go when thier where less graduates of course a degree stood out, now with everyone and their mums having degrees, its all about experience, and a degree in something like history is becoming less and less worthwhile.

The issue is there's too many graduates and not enough jobs that they want to do. That competition will always exist and not everyone is going to get the job they want.

your right, that is a problem, but right now the educational system is set out as a business its about getting students through the doors, if 10 million people want to study media, you can bet your ass in a few years their will be around 10 million university places to accomodate them, becuase universities want their business, it wouldn't matter that their is only a tiny amount of media jobs compared to the amount of people studying it. thats not the way universities should be run.
The numbers of degrees places should be more inline with the numbers of jobs in that field. Their should also be more transferable skills taught across the bored at university, like basic economic, business management, maybe even basic computer programming, so that even students fail to get a job in their chosen field after university, they come out with wide ranging skills and the word graduate actually starts to mean something again.

I don't think it should be free though, thats basically just a tax reduction for those who earn a decent amount. More bursaries for specific subect areas the country needs. How to fix all the robots for one.

yeah i agree with this, i wouldnt have an issue with universities been free, but if the country can't afford it and the people who come out of universities and get better paid jobs becuase of it, i don't have an issue with them making a contribution to pay for that education

 

[Tarrou]

People are ignoring the main advantage of going to Uni here. You get a wonderful 3 years to bum around playing champ manager, drinking and having sex, all while feeling "your whole life is ahead of you" without properly having to acknowledge that your whole life is just a mundane 9 to 5, 40-year slogfest followed by a few years more bumming around before you get too old to appreciate anything and die. You cannae put a price on that.

 

[Cheesy]

I defintely don't mean anything I said as a personal dig at you. You make a very good point, as did Cheesy - young people don't get good advice. Nobody from my family had ever been to uni when I went. I was encouraged to be a Doctor by my parents (as all asian parents do) but i was never smart enough to do that. I ended up picking computer science because GCSE IT was easy and I had a couple of mates who chose the same degree. i landed on my feet out of sheer dumb luck.

Universities could do a better job of making more rounded degrees too. You're right with the idea of a foundation year where you learn some finance and some computing, a bit of business studies. That'd be really useful to someone studying an arts degree when they want to hit the job market. Or maybe they could limit the seats on art subjects and divert resources into STEM subjects? Unfortunately uni's are all about self preservation. Why would you get rid of your unionised arts lecturers to them go out hunting for expensive physics lecturers causing all this upheaval and unrest when students will pay 9K a year either way?

I also think there's the fact that a lot of the subjects now typically being banded about as useless - say, History and Philosophy, are fields which have contributed so much to human thinking and learning, and where we are now as a society.

And while they might not be particularly great for employability right now, what's typically good for employment constantly changes depending on how the economy is doing, what sectors are on the rise, which ones are declining etc. STEM is obviously typically seen as the prime area for getting a job after uni right now, but naturally the type of jobs available/money that can be earned from certain jobs will continue to change, whether it be for better or worse.

 

[rcoobc]

I suspect you are not poor

Many of the poor don't work a full week so these rises in the personal allowance won't help them

First, where the feck did I say I was poor

And, that's obviously not true for previous raises.

When the Tories took over, the Personal Allowance was around £5.2k and the minimum wage around £5.80. £5.80 x 8 hours x 150 days a year is £6960.

Now the personal allowance is £11.5k and the minimum wage is £7.50. £7.50 x 8 hours x 150 days is £9k. Obviously the lowest earners would benefit more from raising the Lower Earnings Limit of National Insurance now.

 

[DenisIrwin]

Automation is just a fact of life, it's going to happen, just as the industrial revolution changed the World. It's progress, impossible to stop by any political party and will be the big conundrum of our times.

But fox hunting is a barbaric "sport" for the rich, much easier to tackle & May's stance is as expected, digusting.

As a "white van man" I often slow right down for horse riders on my rounds. Unfortunately, today I missed a gear whilst passing riders, twice. None of them fell off though

 

[DenisIrwin]

Indeed, but no one earns "less" than minimum wage.

It's just annoying!

A while back, I did a 6am start delivering for IKEA. My driver's mate made the usual call when we had completed our run, saying we expected to be back around 19:30. The chap in the office said one of the lorry drivers near us was having troubles on his first day and for us to rendevous with him, transfer 4 deliveries and make them on our way back to Bristol from rural Oxfordshire. We did so. They were huge deliveries. We got back at 23:45. I really shouldn't have been driving. Was absolutely shattered. Got the flat daily rate of £90. Threatened to take the agency to ACAS due to being paid under min. wage. They only caved in when I went in to their office and raised a stink. They gave me an extra £50.

 

[DenisIrwin]

Apparently Labour are going to scrap tuition fees.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...on-manifesto-2017-jeremy-corbyn-a7727951.html

That's been a common thing in his speeches for a while. "Free education from cradle to grave."

 

[DenisIrwin]

At that point she'll peel off her mask and it'll be Margaret Thatcher who managed to fake her own death. Genius. A proper Scooby Doo ending!

Is it Mrs T. May or Mother Theresa?

 

[DenisIrwin]

With all due respect, you studied history - what did you expect? What practical use has anything you learnt have? What skills have you picked up that someone studying accounting wouldn't have picked up? I've worked in higher education and a lot of the temps I worked with were really bright qualified young people like you, but they had degrees in useuless subjects. History, Art, Philosophy etc. We need an understanding of these things in our society and if you studied these subjects to enrich yourself, then great - but there is no way you'll be getting jobs ahead of someone who studied a specialist subject, or even a non specialist practical subject. Someone who studies Finance or business studies is going to be of more use to a company than someone who studied Music.

This next bit might come across as a little racist, but I think young white people are going wrong by not focusing on STEM subjects, or other practical degrees. 30 years ago, most people didn't go to university, so if you studied history you could still get a job because your degree showed you had a level of knowledge and academic skills the layman didn't. In the last 10-15 years more people than ever have access to a university education. Asians we don't study the arts, we study STEM subjects or practical subjects where there is work at the end. Upper class or upper middle class white kids can afford to study the arts and humanities because firstly they have wealthy parents who'll look after them and secondly because eventually their parents social network will help them get opportunities the rest of us can't get. When low income or middle class white kids go to uni, struggle to pay bills and then study arts or humanities, it's a recipe for disaster. You don't have the connections to get you a job afterwards, you don't learn the specialist knowledge to be seen favourably by employers and you're still stuck with mega bills. You guys need to be a bit stricter with your kids, guide them into practical degrees, I'd have got a class round the head if i told my dad i wanted to study Geography, he'd have bought me an A-Z and a form for a taxi badge!

I was very lucky. An English teacher I had (also my Form Master) told us to always remember than education was primarily to make us better people.

 

[DenisIrwin]

The thing about the personal allowance was that they simultaneously cut tax credits and other benefits, so it was a net loss for the lowest whilst having the extra expense of taking less tax from those higher up the income scale.

I earn way below the tax threshold now but would have no problem paying my fair share of tax. I don't think it's right that I should be tax exempt just because I earn a low wage.

 

[sun_tzu]

your right, that is a problem, but right now the educational system is set out as a business its about getting students through the doors, if 10 million people want to study media, you can bet your ass in a few years their will be around 10 million univesity places to accomodate them, becuase universities want their buissness, it wouldn't matter that their is only a tiny amount of media jobs compared to the amount of people studying it. thats not the way universities should be run.
The numbers of degrees places should be more inline with the numbers of jobs in that field. Their should also be more transferable skills taught across the bored at university, like basic basic economic, business management, maybe even basic computer programming, so that even students fail to get a job in their chosen field after university, they come out with wide ranging skills and the word graduate actually starts to mean something again.

valid... id also factor in that when there are arbitrary targets like 50% of people to go to uni there needs to be some real practical thought as to if 50% of jobs require a degree - otherwise either a lot of people are going to rack up a lot of debt (or the state s going to fund a lot of education for educations sake)

 

[Mozza]

When the Tories took over, the Personal Allowance was around £5.2k and the minimum wage around £5.80. £5.80 x 8 hours x 150 days a year is £6960.

You're off by a grand

When you are already struggling the chancelor wacking VAT up doesn't help. Georgie of course decided to do that on top of austerity

 

[rcoobc]

A while back, I did a 6am start delivering for IKEA. My driver's mate made the usual call when we had completed our run, saying we expected to be back around 19:30. The chap in the office said one of the lorry drivers near us was having troubles on his first day and for us to rendevous with him, transfer 4 deliveries and make them on our way back to Bristol from rural Oxfordshire. We did so. They were huge deliveries. We got back at 23:45. I really shouldn't have been driving. Was absolutely shattered. Got the flat daily rate of £90. Threatened to take the agency to ACAS due to being paid under min. wage. They only caved in when I went in to their office and raised a stink. They gave me an extra £50.

Getting the daily rate doesn't necessarily mean you were getting paid less than minimum wage funnily enough. It all depends on the pay reference period.

Spoiler

Basically the amount you get paid divided by the hours you worked over the pay reference period

And what is the pay reference period?

Spoiler

http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukdsi/2015/9780111127964/pdfs/ukdsi_9780111127964_en.pdf

If you were getting paid daily, then what they did was illegal. If you get paid monthly (even if you pay is calculated daily), then whether you got paid less than NMW depends on how much you worked through the rest of the month.

Were you driving a HGV? Did you have a cab to sleep in? Were you double manning?

Edit - I am totally being a dick with these questions though

 

[rcoobc]

You're off by a grand

When you are already struggling the chancelor wacking VAT up doesn't help. Georgie of course decided to do that on top of austerity

You are right... For some reason I used the 2008 figures.

I think it's wrong to only look those earning less than £6k though. Are we really saying that a family of four with only a dad working, who earns, £12k aren't poor?

I'm not defending Tory welfare cuts, just saying, it's not an out right attack on "the poor", but more Tories = tax and welfare cuts.

 

[DenisIrwin]

I hate it that I live in a bubble. The vast, vast majority of people I interact with on social media are Labour voters. All my friends are Labour voters. All of the pubs I like to frequent have "Vote Labour" signs in their windows. My constituency is one of the few to have bucked the trend in the last GE and swung from LibDem to Labour. The people I work with that I have spoken to are almost all Labour voters. On my daily delivery rounds though, I have noticed that drivers are more courteous in areas with a majority of "Vote Labour" (or Plaid Cymru) placards in front yards. I do try to go to Tory pubs - but I hate them and never enjoy it. I don't start spouting politics - I just hate them.

 

[DenisIrwin]

Getting the daily rate doesn't necessarily mean you were getting paid less than minimum wage funnily enough. It all depends on the pay reference period.

Spoiler

Basically the amount you get paid divided by the hours you worked over the pay reference period

And what is the pay reference period?

Spoiler

http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukdsi/2015/9780111127964/pdfs/ukdsi_9780111127964_en.pdf

If you were getting paid daily, then what they did was illegal. If you get paid monthly (even if you pay is calculated daily), then whether you got paid less than NMW depends on how much you worked through the rest of the month.

Were you driving a HGV? Did you have a cab to sleep in? Were you double manning?

Edit - I am totally being a dick with these questions though

No. I was driving (as I always do) a long-wheelbase Merc Sprinter (3.5 tonne). I usually work alone (cursing at BBC radio 2 or 4), but sometimes have a driver's mate, depending on the job. Just by the way... I love my job. Especially on days like today. Driving in spectacularly beautiful countryside on my own listening to the radio or playing my own tracks (when BBC bias bites too much). Doing a fair amount of hard physical graft. I love it. For years I was an I.T. consultant, spending a lot of time in the air and hotels. This is waaaaayyy better.

 

[Ubik]

You are right... For some reason I used the 2008 figures.

I think it's wrong to only look those earning less than £6k though. Are we really saying that a family of four with only a dad working, who earns, £12k aren't poor?

I'm not defending Tory welfare cuts, just saying, it's not an out right attack on "the poor", but more Tories = tax and welfare cuts.

If you look at the distributional analysis though, it was low income families with children generally that got the worst of it.

 

[Classical Mechanic]

Angela Raynor making the Labour party look like they are making it up as they go along this time.

 

[DenisIrwin]

 

[rcoobc]

No. I was driving (as I always do) a long-wheelbase Merc Sprinter (3.5 tonne). I usually work alone (cursing at BBC radio 2 or 4), but sometimes have a driver's mate, depending on the job. Just by the way... I love my job. Especially on days like today. Driving in spectacularly beautiful countryside on my own listening to the radio or playing my own tracks (when BBC bias bites too much). Doing a fair amount of hard physical graft. I love it. For years I was an I.T. consultant, spending a lot of time in the air and hotels. This is waaaaayyy better.

Tis good. How are you finding work and wages at the moment? Is everything on the move upwards?

If you look at the distributional analysis though, it was low income families with children generally that got the worst of it.

That's.. interesting. Reverse image search says it comes from this http://election2015.ifs.org.uk/distributional-analysis

Looks like, for those not on benefits, it's a little gain from the tax cuts and increases... makes sense

Spoiler

 

[DenisIrwin]

Tis good. How are you finding work and wages at the moment? Is everything on the move upwards?


That's.. interesting. Reverse image search says it comes from this http://election2015.ifs.org.uk/distributional-analysis

Looks like, for those not on benefits, it's a little gain from the tax cuts and increases... makes sense

Spoiler

The unfairness of things seriously, seriously depresses me. I NEED the joy I get at work - and the sertraline. Was close to clocking off for good at times when I was street homeless and realised I couldn't get my possessions back from my landlord after he illegally evicted me and took all my stuff, leaving me with the clothes I arrived home from work, with the main police station being closed due to underfunding and the fact that it was considered a civil matter and that legal aid had been removed. I had some quality stuff by the way, along with a lot of sentimentally valuable things from both deceased parents and from my kids when they were little. I struggle to type now, tbh, when I think about it. Yeah... today was good. *sips his stella in the beer garden*

 

[Shamwow]

Angela Raynor making the Labour party look like they are making it up as they go along this time.

The policies are costed so I don't think they are making it up on the fly so much as suffering from the occasional brain fart.

The Tories don't seem to be getting questioned to the same standard either.

 

[Nytram Shakes]

I defintely don't mean anything I said as a personal dig at you. You make a very good point, as did Cheesy - young people don't get good advice. Nobody from my family had ever been to uni when I went. I was encouraged to be a Doctor by my parents (as all asian parents do) but i was never smart enough to do that. I ended up picking computer science because GCSE IT was easy and I had a couple of mates who chose the same degree. i landed on my feet out of sheer dumb luck.

Universities could do a better job of making more rounded degrees too. You're right with the idea of a foundation year where you learn some finance and some computing, a bit of business studies. That'd be really useful to someone studying an arts degree when they want to hit the job market. Or maybe they could limit the seats on art subjects and divert resources into STEM subjects? Unfortunately uni's are all about self preservation. Why would you get rid of your unionised arts lecturers to them go out hunting for expensive physics lecturers causing all this upheaval and unrest when students will pay 9K a year either way?

no offence taken at all.

Thats the problem isn't it, its a business, its about getting people through the doors, it isn't about providing an education that sets graduates up for for their life post education, it isn't about providing the country with the skilled workers it needs, its about getting 9k a week of as many students as possible.

Whats worse is that these problems arn't even on the agenda, people are so obsessed with fee's, (that don't really effect peoples lives) that they are ignoring the fact our higher education system is a mess.

 

[Ubik]

Tis good. How are you finding work and wages at the moment? Is everything on the move upwards?


That's.. interesting. Reverse image search says it comes from this http://election2015.ifs.org.uk/distributional-analysis

Looks like, for those not on benefits, it's a little gain from the tax cuts and increases... makes sense

Spoiler

That's what I said initially though - the "taking out of tax" was more than offset by cuts in tax credits and other things like child benefit. I like the idea of the raising of the threshold but in terms of outcomes, at least over the coalition parliament, it wasn't good for those lower down. Though that chart does also show that the richest did pay a lot which is to be lauded.

On this new thing of removing tuition fees - just saw on the Guardian that it could cost £10bn, and surely there are better ways of spending that. The analysis of the Labour policy at the last election (reduce to 6k) showed it disproportionately benefited kids from higher up the income scale.

 

[Unmutual]

123456

 

[Sweet Square]

 

[Classical Mechanic]

I am totally disbelieving that Labour can deliver this land of milk and honey in the face of Brexit.

 

[Unmutual]

123456