General Election 2017 | Cabinet reshuffle: Hunt re-appointed Health Secretary for record third time

[Smores]

Bros in the UK, I have a question for you: since the Fall 0f 2014, the UK had four votes: the Scottish Referendum, the 2015 elections, Brexit and the 2017 elections. Isn't that too much? What's your take on this?

I don't see why it is personally, would have been better not to have some of them but using it as a basis not to have another one as the tories are doing is daft.

Too much of this country wastes their life on watching soaps but will moan at having to spend minimal time having to vote.

 

[rcoobc]

In the UK most people don't get the MP they want, most people don't get the government they want.

And most people dont care.

 

[ThierryHenry]

A Labour Brexit wouldn't actually be the same as Mays. And they have been attacking the prospect of a hard Brexit, Corbyn when talking about Brexit(boringly in my view)mentions ''Tax Heaven, low productivity of the shores of Europe ect'' that's doesn't mean Labour plan is any good(It's at best muddled)

As for support there are no Tory MPs or media outlets that would be sympathetic to anything it if results in a positive for a Corbyn lead Labour Party, the people you mentioned - two of them aren't even MP's, Osbourne(A formerly hated politician) is a now a newspaper editor for the 4th biggest newspaper in the country, he's pretty irrelevant in the grand scheme of things, Clegg is fecking nobody who lost seat last week(God I was so happy when that happened)and Davidson is now in a government that is in crisis,losing to Labour in the polls and Umanna is a MP hated by Labour members. The further Corbyn and Labour stay away even the idea of working with these people the better.

Also I'm not sure the remain vote and leave vote is really a thing, yes there are people on both sides who are very loud and odd but the way this election went shows the most people care more about their local hospital than the sharpness of Mr Macrons game theory.


Yeah that's not true.

Really think we're just not going to agree here.

To summarise my piece - I find it incredibly frustrating that the opposition aren't attacking the government on the most important issue of the day, at exactly the point at which they're weakest, and a number of other players are trying to turn the tide. History will look dreadfully on the Corbyn leadership here. I feel like a small window has opened to move the government away from a hard Brexit, and (just like in the referendum) Corbyn's Labour Party are nowhere to be seen.

I can't at all understand the myopia of his supporters here. Just as Saint Jeremy attacked his party on many positions, you're allowed to criticise his positions on any topics you like.

 

[711]

I suspect that what sort of deal the EU wants will have be far more relevant to the end deal than the ambition of either the Tories or Labour.

 

[Reiver]

A campaign built on change and hope not the status quo. He's a good campaigner but Corbyn by himself would not have shifted thar vote. Im really not trying to apologise for him or anything i just dont see it.

Them being working class makes no difference, from what ive seen so far leave working class areas voted just tory no??

I think more of an issue was that, as the leader of Labour, he didn't appear to take up much of a leading role during the brexit campaign, for either side. I think if he had, even if it was for Leave, people would have seen him leading and that could have made a difference in the election just past. I could be wrong, but I think most people wouldn't even think of Corbyn when thinking of the Brexit campaign's leading figures. I think he missed an opportunity.

 

[Cheesy]

I think more of an issue was that, as the leader of Labour, he didn't appear to take up much of a leading role during the brexit campaign, for either side. I think if he had, even if it was for Leave, people would have seen him leading and that could have made a difference in the election just past. I could be wrong, but I think most people wouldn't even think of Corbyn when thinking of the Brexit campaign's leading figures. I think he missed an opportunity.

He'd have been out the Labour party as leader in an instant if he'd done that.

 

[Reiver]

He'd have been out the Labour party as leader in an instant if he'd done that.

My bad, meant to say remain.

 

[Ubik]

Think there's a bunch of truth in this thread

 

[Sweet Square]

Really think we're just not going to agree here.

To summarise my piece - I find it incredibly frustrating that the opposition aren't attacking the government on the most important issue of the day, at exactly the point at which they're weakest, and a number of other players are trying to turn the tide. History will look dreadfully on the Corbyn leadership here. I feel like a small window has opened to move the government away from a hard Brexit, and (just like in the referendum) Corbyn's Labour Party are nowhere to be seen.

I can't at all understand the myopia of his supporters here. Just as Saint Jeremy attacked his party on many positions, you're allowed to criticise his positions on any topics you like.

I've pointed out that Corbyn and Labour have been critical of the Tories Hard Brexit and that a Labour Brexit will not be same as the Tories(The Labour plan is completely muddled as it has to try and balance a wide range of views). Also I've pointed that the players you've mentioned will not work with a Corbyn Labour Party but also they are completely useless.

Who knows how history will treat this moment but the hope(Or myopia as you call it)comes from the fact Corbyn and the wider British Left organised and energised nearly 12 million people. I've already posted this before but Gary Young puts it's very well here - https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2017/jun/10/victory-hope-youth-turnout-election-politics

Just as Saint Jeremy attacked his party on many positions, you're allowed to criticise his positions on any topics you like.

Er no one has said you can't criticise him. Although once we gain power, anyone showing dissent will have to serve a minimum of 4 weeks hard tweeting Corbyn GIFs at Guardian journalists and will also be subjected to daily routines of Tony Benn speeches streamed through VR headsets.

 

[MoskvaRed]

Thats just a mental statement all round. Do you honestly think Corbyn has that much influence?

If you were arguing the Labour campaign that would be slightly less ridiculous but even then 'contributed greatly' is too much.

"Mental"? He's the leader of one of the big two parties, and a party that has traditionally been the dominant voice of areas like the North of England, the West Midlands and Wales which voted leave in large numbers. So, yes, in the circles of hell reserved for those who contributed to this disaster, there is certainly one reserved for Corbyn who was at best non-committal about Remain and at worst secretly wanting Leave. With any other Labour leader not drawn from the old Bennite anti-EEC ranks, Labour would have helped get this over the line, as they did in Scotland in 2014.

 

[Smores]

"Mental"? He's the leader of one of the big two parties, and a party that has traditionally been the dominant voice of areas like the North of England, the West Midlands and Wales which voted leave in large numbers. So, yes, in the circles of hell reserved for those who contributed to this disaster, there is certainly one reserved for Corbyn who was at best non-committal about Remain and at worst secretly wanting Leave. With any other Labour leader not drawn from the old Bennite anti-EEC ranks, Labour would have helped get this over the line, as they did in Scotland in 2014.

Labour had representation, Johnson was the lead and if i recall correctly the likes of Eagle/Cooper did the TV debates. Neither from the old Bennite ranks.

63% of Labour voters went remain, i dont think it could have been much higher as it was the less skilled areas in the north that went Leave. The tories took us out of the EU make no mistake, only 42% went remain.

The idea that Corbyns words over Eagles/Johnsons words would have suddenly made those unskilled workers suddenly not hate the EU and not believe in the lies is fanciful.

I don't think he particularly tried but neither do i think he'd have made a difference. Certainly not a positive one.

 

[dumbo]

You know when you do a murder in your house and the rotting corpse is hidden under the bed for a while before you can sneak it out of the house and bury it in the woods?
and you know when, just as that rotten corpse smell is beginning to fade, you decide to dig up the decaying body and drag it back so you can display in the front living room window?

Anyway welcome back Michael.

 

[Nick 0208 Ldn]

Given that Brexit was also an anti-establishment vote, i rather doubt whether a more vociferous Labour swings the EU Ref in favour of Remain. Also worth mentioning, is that the party was seen as the least trustworthy on Europe out of the big three.

As for the present, i think any significant attempts at manipulation will carry consequences down the road. Eventually, the voters will realise that they have been used (again). In short, the Europhiles should pick one thing that they really want: something close to FoM, primacy of the ECJ/contributions, customs union. For my part, it is the latter two my part, it is the latter two which are the most vivid of red lines.

 

[Dan]

 

[altodevil]

For those who are interested, the winner of the prediction competition was @Kentonio who guessed a conservative majority of -6 (actual answer was -9).

Congratulations, and well done to all those who predicted a hung parliament.

 

[Kentonio]

For those who are interested, the winner of the prediction competition was @Kentonio who guessed a conservative majority of -6 (actual answer was -9).

Congratulations, and well done to all those who predicted a hung parliament.

Thank you. I'd just like to thank my family, friends and of course baby god Jesus, without whom none of this would have been possible.

 

[rcoobc]

Don't worry, he'll single handedly solve it.

 

[MoskvaRed]

Labour had representation, Johnson was the lead and if i recall correctly the likes of Eagle/Cooper did the TV debates. Neither from the old Bennite ranks.

63% of Labour voters went remain, i dont think it could have been much higher as it was the less skilled areas in the north that went Leave. The tories took us out of the EU make no mistake, only 42% went remain.

The idea that Corbyns words over Eagles/Johnsons words would have suddenly made those unskilled workers suddenly not hate the EU and not believe in the lies is fanciful.

I don't think he particularly tried but neither do i think he'd have made a difference. Certainly not a positive one.

I agree that those Leave areas would not have been swayed wholesale by Corbyn but, in a referendum where every vote counts (unlike the constituency-based voting of last week's election), having the Labour leader fully on board could certainly have swung some votes. After all, while I am not his biggest fan, Corbyn can certainly energise a campaign.

Anyway, all water under the bridge now. Let's hope Labour can work with the sensible wing of the Conservatives and the smaller parties to pressure the government into engaging constructively with the EU, jettisoning the Farage-type posturing and prioritising access to the single market.

 

[rcoobc]

Labour had representation, Johnson was the lead and if i recall correctly the likes of Eagle/Cooper did the TV debates. Neither from the old Bennite ranks.

63% of Labour voters went remain, i dont think it could have been much higher as it was the less skilled areas in the north that went Leave. The tories took us out of the EU make no mistake, only 42% went remain.

The idea that Corbyns words over Eagles/Johnsons words would have suddenly made those unskilled workers suddenly not hate the EU and not believe in the lies is fanciful.

I don't think he particularly tried but neither do i think he'd have made a difference. Certainly not a positive one.

Maybe Corbyn couldn't have made a difference, but do you seriously not think *someone* could have, a Macron or Blair (in his prime) figure would have won it with ease.

 

[DenisIrwin]

I firmly believe that no deal is better than a bad deal - between the Tories and DUP.

 

[DenisIrwin]

So... when it comes to negotiating Brexit, May was supposedly all for walking away if she couldn't get what she wanted for the UK. Now she needs to strike a deal with the DUP. Can she walk away and survive? Is her negotiating position a secret? It's like a poker call with your own cards exposed.

Edit: I'd love to see a commons-wide high-stakes Texas Hold-em tournament. The final table would be interesting. Corbyn wouldn't be there. Nor would May. Kier Starmer? Maybe.

 

[Reiver]

The DUP want to scrap tv license fees. Could just give the Tories the excuse they need. What's the Beeb done to upset them the DUP?

 

[Cheesy]

The DUP want to scrap tv license fees. Could just give the Tories the excuse they need. What's the Beeb done to upset them the DUP?

Attenborough did that dinosaur documentary a while back.

 

[Eire Red United]

The DUP want to scrap tv license fees. Could just give the Tories the excuse they need. What's the Beeb done to upset them the DUP?

Hmm some good might come from these cnuts after all.

 

[Sweet Square]

Maybe Corbyn couldn't have made a difference, but do you seriously not think *someone* could have, a Macron or Blair (in his prime) figure would have won it with ease.

The number one reason people gave to why they voted for Macron was that he was up against a fascist and in the more recent election just gone Macrons party stormed to victory in one of the lowest turn outs in French history.

 

[Manny]

 

[rcoobc]

The number one reason people gave to why they voted for Macron was that he was up against a fascist and in the more recent election just gone Macrons party stormed to victory in one of the lowest turn outs in French history.

Hmm, maybe. But then, I think the situation is different. Maybe in legislative elections people normally vote for the party that represents them best. The lack of votes is more to do with the lack of the traditional left/right battle.

Or, I dunno, I don't know much about French politics. All I know is, Macron got 66% of the vote vs Marine Le Pen's 33% on a Europe-centric manifesto (or whatever the French call theirs). He may well achieve an unprecedented majority in the legislative election too. Turnout might not be great, but they aren't voting against him

 

[jackofalltrades]

Double whammy - he'll bring back the old London fog which was so thick you could spread it on bread, then he'll get rid of food banks.

 

[Ubik]

The number one reason people gave to why they voted for Macron was that he was up against a fascist and in the more recent election just gone Macrons party stormed to victory in one of the lowest turn outs in French history.

The main voters that didn't turn up were Melenchon's and Le Pen's (compared to the Presidentials).

And come on, his party that didn't exist a year ago could be heading for the biggest landslide since de Gaulle. It's impressive.

 

[Fergies Gum]

We're already 12% into the 2 year deadline without any discussions whatsoever having taken place. When you consider the fact that many experts have said the 2 year deadline is not at all realistic, you realise how far behind we are.

12% of the time has passed and we've not even had basic discussions

 

[sullydnl]

Wonder why that is?

 

[Sweet Square]

Hmm, maybe. But then, I think the situation is different. Maybe in legislative elections people normally vote for the party that represents them best. The lack of votes is more to do with the lack of the traditional left/right battle.

Or, I dunno, I don't know much about French politics. All I know is, Macron got 66% of the vote vs Marine Le Pen's 33% on a Europe-centric manifesto (or whatever the French call theirs). He may well achieve an unprecedented majority in the legislative election too. Turnout might not be great, but they aren't voting against him

They aren't showing up for him. Which was a problem during the referendum, the young vote(More likely to be left wing) which was around 64%, how would someone with Macron politics have gotten the turn out higher. And the same with convincing Leave voters to vote Remain, I'm pretty sure for all of Macrons ''personality'' and firm handshakes the people of Sunderland would not have been turned around. Just look how convincing Cameron was during the campaign.

The main voters that didn't turn up were Melenchon's and Le Pen's (compared to the Presidentials).

And come on, his party that didn't exist a year ago could be heading for the biggest landslide since de Gaulle. It's impressive.

He's done pretty well but the idea that had he been a UK politician the UK would still be in the EU is a bit of a stretch.

 

[GloryHunter07]

Abbott has type 7 Diabetes.

 

[rcoobc]

He's done pretty well but the idea that had he been a UK politician the UK would still be in the EU is a bit of a stretch.

I think what he's shown, and Blair before him, is you can win elections on a pro-Europe basis. And win them with some huge landslides at that.

I mean you go back to 2005, Labour got only 9.5 million votes, which was only 35% of the popular vote, compared to 1997 when they took 13.5 million votes and 43%... you can clearly see that Labour were declining in the eyes of the public but they still had a pretty hefty majority to be going on with.

The EU referendum was a joke.

We'd had the conservative government saying they were going to reduce net immigration to less than 100,000 per year, something they failed to do for 5 years running. Prime Minister David Cameron then said he was going to pop over to Brussles to negotiate a better deal, presumably channelling Margret Thatcher's ghost like something out of Harry Potter, and yet all he seemed to return with was a blank piece of paper with some of the lesser known EU laws hastily scribbled on it.

Clearly the Tory vote wasn't going to save us.

But never fear, we also had the newly elected Leader of the Labour Party, Mr Jeremy Corbyn, who was well known for his Eurosceptic views even if he was not, at this point, very well known himself, ready to throw himself into the European cause like a mouse trying to break up a fight between two large cats. Well it could have been worse, he hadn't suffered a vote of no confidence then. But as said, Mr Corbyn could be seen travelling up and down the breadth of the country challenging the Eurosceptic views of the people, I'm sure.

It's a wonder we only lost it by 4 points.

 

[Rolandofgilead]

Turns out Labour has 15,000 new members, rather than 150,000. Seems more believable.

35000 according to The Mirror.

Not that it's the most credible source but they say 35000 in 5 days.

 

[Sweet Square]

I think what he's shown, and Blair before him, is you can win elections on a pro-Europe basis. And win them with some huge landslides at that.

I mean you go back to 2005, Labour got only 9.5 million votes, which was only 35% of the popular vote, compared to 1997 when they took 13.5 million votes and 43%... you can clearly see that Labour were declining in the eyes of the public but they still had a pretty hefty majority to be going on with.

The EU referendum was a joke.

We'd had the conservative government saying they were going to reduce net immigration to less than 100,000 per year, something they failed to do for 5 years running. Prime Minister David Cameron then said he was going to pop over to Brussles to negotiate a better deal, presumably channelling Margret Thatcher's ghost like something out of Harry Potter, and yet all seemed to return with was a blank piece of paper with some of the lesser known EU laws hastily scribbled on it.

Clearly the Tory vote wasn't going to save us.

But never fear, we also had the newly elected Leader of the Labour Party, Mr Jeremy Corbyn, who was well known for his Eurosceptic views even if he was not, at his point, very well known himself, ready to throw himself into the European cause like a mouse trying to break up a fight between two large cats. Well it could have been worse, he hadn't suffered a vote of no confidence then. But as said, Mr Corbyn could be seen travelling up and down the breadth of the country challenging the Eurosceptic views of the people, I'm sure.

It's a wonder we only lost it by 4 points.

I'm not sure of your point.

You know that the Labour Party ran by people with a similar politics as Marcon was in decline, yet somehow these people would of been able to convince the people who were abandoning them(Because of their awful politics) for years to suddenly get on side and vote remain, seems very doubtful. Also the Labour Campagin was run by Alan Johnston, a rather centrist politician.

And you can have a go at Corbyn campaign all you want but it doesn't prove that some like Macron would have change the result. Leaving the EU was a 20 odd year political project(Helped in part by the politics of people like Blair and Marcon)no one person could have change this.

 

[rcoobc]

I'm not sure of your point.

You know that the Labour Party ran by people with a similar politics as Marcon was in decline, yet somehow these people would of been able to convince the people who were abandoning them(Because of their awful politics) for years to suddenly get on side and vote remain, seems very doubtful. Also the Labour Campagin was run by Alan Johnston, a rather centrist politician.

And you can have a go at Corbyn campaign all you want but it doesn't prove that some like Macron would have change the result. Leaving the EU was a 20 odd year political project(Helped in part by the politics of people like Blair and Marcon)no one person could have change this.

I disagree. With the vote, as close as it was, I quite think that any one person could have won it. All we needed was one of the two main party leaders to make the positive case for it, and we'd only be worrying about Conservative austerity for the next three years.

 

[Sweet Square]

I disagree. With the vote, as close as it was, I quite think that any one person could have won it. All we needed was one of the two main party leaders to make the positive case for it, and we'd only be worrying about Conservative austerity for the next three years.

Agree to disagree I guess.

and we'd only be worrying about Conservative austerity for the next three years.

Although yes this would've of been far better worry than the shit storm we are going to face now.

 

[Ubik]

35000 according to The Mirror.

Not that it's the most credible source but they say 35000 in 5 days.

Yeah, an impressive increase, it's back up to 550k overall. Burgon for some reason thought it had increased by 150k to 800k, but numbers were never his strong point.

 

[Sweet Square]

Yeah, an impressive increase, it's back up to 550k overall. Burgon for some reason thought it had increased by 150k to 800k, but numbers were never his strong point.

To be fair it originally was Dave Ward, a trade union General Secretary who posted that the membership had come close to 800k.