Gary Neville - Pundit

I like Gary as a pundit. I do think his punditry and analysis are biased at times because he was a super successful player for a lot of years in a super successful team under the greatest manager football has seen. With that, naturally he sees how football is maybe too much from his perspective.

People saying he knows nothing is just stupid.
 
tomaldinho1 said:
You miss the point with Neville. He's not as crass/stupid as Scholes is, but he just pumps out opinions, often contradictory and people are getting tired of it.

In a short space of time he has said he sympathises with managers, told Ruben it can't go on like this, said he sees nothing to say Ruben is the man for the job and also said Ruben needs 3 windows....
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I see the point, but all things can be true at the same time.

You can have sympathy for the situation at United that Amorim has walked into.
You can express that the form on pitch cant go on. There has to be some kind of improvement.
He is right in saying that in terms of on the pitch, there isnt anything to show Amorim is the man for the job. That does mean that given windows and time he wont turn it around. He is not saying he isnt the man for the job.
And he is right to say Amorim needs multiple windows given the amount of dross in the team.
 
Andycoleno9 said:
Congrats on ignorance.
Gary Neville showed multiple times (everything is on youtube so easily you can check it) how he barely knows players and clubs outside PL. Even Carragher mocked him about that few times. My favourite part is when he says; "we played against some club from Bulgaria/Hungary/etc..".

You want examples about his xenophobic views? First of all he was against foreign manager for NT. Also, his criticism is nearly always targeted at our foreign players while he avoids as much as he can domestic players.

So yes, he is xenophobic piece of shit. In football terms, to be clear. I am not talking about his personal views in life outside football.
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have to laugh at you.... really, how did you get so much nonsense (oh, and defamation) into one post?
 
gaffs said:
I see the point, but all things can be true at the same time.

You can have sympathy for the situation at United that Amorim has walked into.
You can express that the form on pitch cant go on. There has to be some kind of improvement.
He is right in saying that in terms of on the pitch, there isnt anything to show Amorim is the man for the job. That does mean that given windows and time he wont turn it around. He is not saying he isnt the man for the job.
And he is right to say Amorim needs multiple windows given the amount of dross in the team.
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No one is saying he lies, it's the mixed messages, the pressure he voluntary/involuntarily puts on players and coaches.

Simple question, assuming he wants to make United players and staff etc. life as easy as possible, why is he doing that segment on essentially every single player being shit? Where's the defence of the club, the awareness of context. For example - it would be so easy when Redknapp bring up that it's a 'poor team compared to the United great teams' to just push back and ask why are we comparing this team to teams from over a decade ago? Like have a bit of fire for the club you support. Point out that the Glazers have left the club in an awful financial situation, that Ineos feel they have been forced to make drastic cost cutting measures (even if he refuses to criticise inoes he can still say that), we need to reimagine the narrative around United and they have made the clear decision to start buying younger players and trying to build towards something. It wasn't even like Spurs dominated the games, it was two equally shit teams slugging it out.

The irony is he goes on to say the players are good before they come to United and something at United then makes it harder for them...no shit Gary, you join United and the media dine out on any mistake you make, any loss, and much of the ire players get on a personal level is from fans who are basing their views on headlines (it's a REALLY POOR team :o being the title for this latest Sky clickbait headline) and what Neville, Redknapp say. He is part of the media exploitation of United for money, willingly, and he actively contributes to unnecessary pressure on the players, coach and club in general. Never thought I would think this but it makes you appreciate Sourness, Hansen etc. for the unwillingness to ever really put the boot into their old club.
 
gaffs said:
Totally agree. People seem to disagree with the commentary that the midfield was wide open. Is was all there for us all to see.

People think he should be sympathetic towards to injuries mid commentary and somehow blame it on INOES and The Glazers. Sure, fine. But Amorim has Bruno running shuttle runs to press the left back and vacating the midfield. All he did was say what we can all see.
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My issue is that he seemed to be suggesting that Amorim was happy for the midfield to be left vacant, as part of his tactic. Which is such a dumb assumption. Clearly Amorim knows you can’t play one man in midfield and he would have been expecting someone else to fill that space, which clearly one of the players was not doing. We seemed to fix the issue in the second half.
 
I mean i get people disliking his voice/tone, it's a bit irritating. That aside though, he's not exactly been saying about United that's untrue.

Amorim is currently overseeing a United team 15th in the league and as bad as we've been since the early 70's. Just a couple of weeks ago we struggled for the majority of the game against one of the statistically worst teams in EPL history. Even the few wins we have picked up this year have made for pretty terrible viewing.

We're in a awful place right now, that's not being dramatic that's just where we are, Neville's commentary reflects this. I hope Amorim can be one of the staff that guides us through a change in fortunes. But if he isn't, he'll be replaced and we'll move on. As will the rest of the players and staff that prove not good enough.
 
tomaldinho1 said:
No one is saying he lies, it's the mixed messages, the pressure he voluntary/involuntarily puts on players and coaches.

Simple question, assuming he wants to make United players and staff etc. life as easy as possible, why is he doing that segment on essentially every single player being shit? Where's the defence of the club, the awareness of context. For example - it would be so easy when Redknapp bring up that it's a 'poor team compared to the United great teams' to just push back and ask why are we comparing this team to teams from over a decade ago? Like have a bit of fire for the club you support. Point out that the Glazers have left the club in an awful financial situation, that Ineos feel they have been forced to make drastic cost cutting measures (even if he refuses to criticise inoes he can still say that), we need to reimagine the narrative around United and they have made the clear decision to start buying younger players and trying to build towards something. It wasn't even like Spurs dominated the games, it was two equally shit teams slugging it out.
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Is he paid by Sky Sports to make life as easy as possible for United players and staff? Or to say what he sees and believes?

This is not North Korea, or worse, MUTV. He would look quite stupid if every time he was asked to make a comment he turns it on The Glazers.

He has been vociferous in his criticism on the Glazers, far more than any former United player, or manager. But you cant blame them when the manager has Bruno going to press the Spurs left back, leaving an aged Casemiro 3 on 1 in midfield.

tomaldinho1 said:
The irony is he goes on to say the players are good before they come to United and something at United then makes it harder for them...no shit Gary, you join United and the media dine out on any mistake you make, any loss, and much of the ire players get on a personal level is from fans who are basing their views on headlines (it's a REALLY POOR team :o being the title for this latest Sky clickbait headline) and what Neville, Redknapp say. He is part of the media exploitation of United for money, willingly, and he actively contributes to unnecessary pressure on the players, coach and club in general. Never thought I would think this but it makes you appreciate Sourness, Hansen etc. for the unwillingness to ever really put the boot into their old club.
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So United are failing because of members of the media making negative comments?

How do these players even manage to get out of bed in the morning when they have to think about what a pundit may be saying about them?

Neville is not saying the United players are shit, he is saying that 10 of 11 would not get in the Spurs team, so it is no wonder they are losing. That, if anything, is giving a lot of cover to the manager.

You want to criticize Neville? The manager is saying that this is the worst United team of all time. How is that for their mentality?

Funny how James Madison gets quite unfairly criticised by Roy Keane. Which was completely random and unprovoked given Madison has been out injured for a while. First game back, he scores the winner against United and puts on a pretty good performance?

Why can he deal with the criticism but United players can't?

I think you really are over estimating the impact media comments may have on United players. Just because you're thin skinned about it, doesn't mean the United players are.
 
gaffs said:
Is he paid by Sky Sports to make life as easy as possible for United players and staff? Or to say what he sees and believes?

This is not North Korea, or worse, MUTV. He would look quite stupid if every time he was asked to make a comment he turns it on The Glazers.

He has been vociferous in his criticism on the Glazers, far more than any former United player, or manager. But you cant blame them when the manager has Bruno going to press the Spurs left back, leaving an aged Casemiro 3 on 1 in midfield.



So United are failing because of members of the media making negative comments?

How do these players even manage to get out of bed in the morning when they have to think about what a pundit may be saying about them?

Neville is not saying the United players are shit, he is saying that 10 of 11 would not get in the Spurs team, so it is no wonder they are losing. That, if anything, is giving a lot of cover to the manager.

You want to criticize Neville? The manager is saying that this is the worst United team of all time. How is that for their mentality?

Funny how James Madison gets quite unfairly criticised by Roy Keane. Which was completely random and unprovoked given Madison has been out injured for a while. First game back, he scores the winner against United and puts on a pretty good performance?

Why can he deal with the criticism but United players can't?

I think you really are over estimating the impact media comments may have on United players. Just because you're thin skinned about it, doesn't mean the United players are.
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Firstly, that isn't what I said - it's never helpful to any conversation to be so dramatic and leap to extremes (but it is annoying given I did not say anything that would warrant it + it wastes both of our time).

The point is if he is a fan he should have the club's interests at heart, that means he can criticise all he wants but give a bit of positivity as well. As an ex player, he knows how bad it can be in a dressing room but his actions seem to ignore that.

Please go away and prove me wrong on this but Gary rarely criticised them until the ESL, in fact I remember him telling people not to protest against them because it wouldn't change anything. He suddenly became very anti Glazer when it suited him.

Your last lines I don't really get your point - something has apparently rattled you but all I am doing is pointing out some basic facts about what Gary Neville has said. Players get criticised all the time, some react well, some react poorly, but United players (and feel free to disagree here) get criticised the most even if things are going ok. Any loss brings out these clickbait headlines. Neville though has a lot of power to guide the discussion, just look at the media coverage of Spurs woes versus ours. We aren't dissimilar teams in terms of expectations right now, as sad as that is for a United fan to say, we are both having rank domestic seasons but yet Spurs players are all quite good according to the media, it is Ange who takes the flak from them, whereas our players are all absolutely trash.

You massively underestimate the sports media, it is the prime source of opinion for football fans - and battering United, talking up transfers and generating revenue from the club's name is the tried and tested playbook. Neville is part of the circus, willingly putting his name to the kinds of things we are discussing.
 
I’ve criticised him a lot for bringing the club down, but truthfully, thinking about it now, I can’t think of a single time where he’s actually been wrong. When you dumb it down, he talks about us being crap a lot, and we are.
 
MalaysianRed7 said:
I’ve criticised him a lot for bringing the club down, but truthfully, thinking about it now, I can’t think of a single time where he’s actually been wrong. When you dumb it down, he talks about us being crap a lot, and we are.
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He's supposed to be highlighting things the average fan doesn't see, that's the job of a pundit, to provide insight. Nothing he is saying is particularly groundbreaking when it's aligned to what Joe public is already saying down the pub. How about tell us how he thinks it can be fixed, what measures to take, rather than being negative the way he is.
 
SuperiorXI said:
He's supposed to be highlighting things the average fan doesn't see, that's the job of a pundit, to provide insight. Nothing he is saying is particularly groundbreaking when it's aligned to what Joe public is already saying down the pub. How about tell us how he thinks it can be fixed, what measures to take, rather than being negative the way he is.
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Yeah the last match was a disgrace, just your typical moaner down the pub who repeats the same thing over and over.

I'm fine with him being neutral and not overly praising us but that should go both ways. I don't want to listen to him being gloomy all game, those thoughts are already in my head.
 
Smores said:
Yeah the last match was a disgrace, just your typical moaner down the pub who repeats the same thing over and over.

I'm fine with him being neutral and not overly praising us but that should go both ways. I don't want to listen to him being gloomy all game, those thoughts are already in my head.
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Exactly. I have to mute him more often than not. Even in games we're doing well he can be very negative.
 
tomaldinho1 said:
Firstly, that isn't what I said - it's never helpful to any conversation to be so dramatic and leap to extremes (but it is annoying given I did not say anything that would warrant it + it wastes both of our time).

The point is if he is a fan he should have the club's interests at heart, that means he can criticise all he wants but give a bit of positivity as well. As an ex player, he knows how bad it can be in a dressing room but his actions seem to ignore that.
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I don't think anything would please him Neville more than United competing for titles. But his responsibility as a pundit isn't to encourage the players and to sunre the mood of the dressing room is good. It is to say what he sees on the pitch and comment of the failures off it. For me, there isn't much he says that is miles off the mark.

Let me ask you. If you accept he can "criticise all he wants", what positivity should be providing? Where is the silver lining right now?

Does Roy Keane consider the mood of the dressing room at United? Where is the 109 page thread citisisting Roy Keane for creating a bad atmosphere in the United dressing room?

Has Neville ever gone in as hard on our players as this?



So why do fans get so thin skinned about what Neville says and when its Keane its fine? Or do we give Keane a pass because its just "Roy being Roy" ?

tomaldinho1 said:
Please go away and prove me wrong on this but Gary rarely criticised them until the ESL, in fact I remember him telling people not to protest against them because it wouldn't change anything. He suddenly became very anti Glazer when it suited him.
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I agree there. He has said that he felt complicit for not speaking out sooner on The Glazers.

Not the only one though. Some still say nothing re The Glazers for fear of not getting their match tickets or ambassadorial perks.

tomaldinho1 said:
Your last lines I don't really get your point - something has apparently rattled you but all I am doing is pointing out some basic facts about what Gary Neville has said. Players get criticised all the time, some react well, some react poorly, but United players (and feel free to disagree here) get criticised the most even if things are going ok. Any loss brings out these clickbait headlines. Neville though has a lot of power to guide the discussion, just look at the media coverage of Spurs woes versus ours. We aren't dissimilar teams in terms of expectations right now, as sad as that is for a United fan to say, we are both having rank domestic seasons but yet Spurs players are all quite good according to the media, it is Ange who takes the flak from them, whereas our players are all absolutely trash.

You massively underestimate the sports media, it is the prime source of opinion for football fans - and battering United, talking up transfers and generating revenue from the club's name is the tried and tested playbook. Neville is part of the circus, willingly putting his name to the kinds of things we are discussing.
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Of course United players get more criticism. They also get more praise when things are going well, and a lot more money than most because they are playing for the biggest club in England. If you don't want to accept that trade off, dont come.

Re Spurs v United. Forget the expectations of the two teams right now, United are always going to be held to a higher standard because of their history and status in the game.

Spurs have have a massive injury crisis too. Before that they were going pretty well. You can't say that of United. Yes, we have injuries now, but we were awful before them too. There was a lot of criticism for Ange for not being more pragmatic during the period the spine of the team was out.

I dont disagree re the media, but it is the nature of the beast. The media want their clicks and headlines and will always look to print stories that appeal to as many people as possible. United have 10x the number of fans than Spurs we we get 10x the attention - go figure!

But what i do disagree with is how much this impacts the players day to day.

Neither of us know for certain, buy im going to hazard a guess at media and pundit / ex player criticism being very low on the list of reasons that United have underperformed for the past 10 years.
 
gaffs said:
I don't think anything would please him Neville more than United competing for titles. But his responsibility as a pundit isn't to encourage the players and to sunre the mood of the dressing room is good. It is to say what he sees on the pitch and comment of the failures off it. For me, there isn't much he says that is miles off the mark.

Let me ask you. If you accept he can "criticise all he wants", what positivity should be providing? Where is the silver lining right now?

Does Roy Keane consider the mood of the dressing room at United? Where is the 109 page thread citisisting Roy Keane for creating a bad atmosphere in the United dressing room?

Has Neville ever gone in as hard on our players as this?



So why do fans get so thin skinned about what Neville says and when its Keane its fine? Or do we give Keane a pass because its just "Roy being Roy" ?



I agree there. He has said that he felt complicit for not speaking out sooner on The Glazers.

Not the only one though. Some still say nothing re The Glazers for fear of not getting their match tickets or ambassadorial perks.



Of course United players get more criticism. They also get more praise when things are going well, and a lot more money than most because they are playing for the biggest club in England. If you don't want to accept that trade off, dont come.

Re Spurs v United. Forget the expectations of the two teams right now, United are always going to be held to a higher standard because of their history and status in the game.

Spurs have have a massive injury crisis too. Before that they were going pretty well. You can't say that of United. Yes, we have injuries now, but we were awful before them too. There was a lot of criticism for Ange for not being more pragmatic during the period the spine of the team was out.

I dont disagree re the media, but it is the nature of the beast. The media want their clicks and headlines and will always look to print stories that appeal to as many people as possible. United have 10x the number of fans than Spurs we we get 10x the attention - go figure!

But what i do disagree with is how much this impacts the players day to day.

Neither of us know for certain, buy im going to hazard a guess at media and pundit / ex player criticism being very low on the list of reasons that United have underperformed for the past 10 years.
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You really underestimate his influence. I think it's double standards, calling the players crap week in week out (and it comes in many ways) but then he's more than happy to pull the red wine stunt on social media when we win or then suddenly become a big fan. I wish some of the players would call him out on it, like Bruno should just comment 'You back supporting United this week?' as a bit of a joke, but you get the point. He gets free reign to say all of them are crap, they should give some back.

I gave you an example of how he could have made something downright negative (overly negative as is Sky's way) into more of a positive. Keane people have less of a problem with because he was always like that - it's been amplified but he has always been the same. He is consistently critical of everything + he doesn't go on about how much he loves United etc. whereas Neville has become this person the longer he has been in the media. You can chart his change from being immensely popular (MNF segment) to becoming what he is now.

re not speaking out on the Glazers, it's just another example of being pro United when it suits him. He's the ultimate politician. I do think since he's started foraying into politics you can see the change.

I disagree re its effect. I think it's huge. You talk of the pressure of playing for United, well surely you see that pressure would be lessened if it was not Mr Man United, top red and voice of the people Gary Neville doing the criticising? If it's redknapp, carragher, defoe etc. no one cares, the story doesn't get traction and no one talks about it. I agree top professionals can block most of it out (that said we've seen even the goats lash out against stories so it affects everyone) but then we've signed a load of kids. We're meant to be developing Hojlund, Garnacho, Zirkzee, Ugarte, Yoro etc. and yet he's sat there no even mentioning any upside in developing them, which is something Amorim is supposedly good at (another positive). Imagine SAF was in that seat and someone said all the young kids we have are crap, especially given this group despite struggles all seem grafters, he'd had battered them. I don't need Neville to do this all the time, as already said, but just show a bit of fight for the team you support now and then.
 
He's a United fan but he's also a Sky TV shill, a digital content producer, a real estate magnate, a staunch capitalist, and someone who has a lot of contacts (read: interests) within the game. You can't really wear as many hats as Gary does and not be compromised in some way. It's best to ignore his commentary on United, but that's easier said than done considering how ubiquitous he is on various platforms.
 
tomaldinho1 said:
You really underestimate his influence. I think it's double standards, calling the players crap week in week out (and it comes in many ways) but then he's more than happy to pull the red wine stunt on social media when we win or then suddenly become a big fan. I wish some of the players would call him out on it, like Bruno should just comment 'You back supporting United this week?' as a bit of a joke, but you get the point. He gets free reign to say all of them are crap, they should give some back.
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Half the Caf call our players crap. Im sure those members still celebrate with a glass of their favorite when we win. Are they not fans?
Or does Gary Neville have to act a different way? Because he has this national stage where, god forbid, he may influence the some people on how to think about football?

And when did he call them crap? He said at the weekend that 10 of the 11 on field wouldn't get into the Spurs side. Where is the lie?

Bruno should give him something back. Or maybe Bruno should keep his powder dry until he has won eight Premier League titles, three FA Cups and two Champions Leagues.
Just one title challenge would be nice.

tomaldinho1 said:
I gave you an example of how he could have made something downright negative (overly negative as is Sky's way) into more of a positive. Keane people have less of a problem with because he was always like that - it's been amplified but he has always been the same. He is consistently critical of everything + he doesn't go on about how much he loves United etc. whereas Neville has become this person the longer he has been in the media. You can chart his change from being immensely popular (MNF segment) to becoming what he is now.
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What is the example? What do you want Neville to spin in order to be kinder to the players?

Do you not want him to point out that you could fit a cruise liner in between the gap Bruno was leaving between he and Casemiro?
Or do you want him to sugar coat it and say, "oh, these are not the regular starters" ?

Where does the blame lie there? Managers instructions? Bruno going rouge? Either way, it is the pundits job to call it our, regardless of the injuries.
The pundit should be pointing out the fact that if you only have Casemiro and Bruno to pick from, find a way for that pairing to not get exposed. He did that, and people dont like it.

tomaldinho1 said:
re not speaking out on the Glazers, it's just another example of being pro United when it suits him. He's the ultimate politician. I do think since he's started foraying into politics you can see the change.
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The Super League was a tipping point for him, clearly. What will be Fergies tipping point? Or Keanes? Or any other United player who has stayed quiet about The Glazers?

tomaldinho1 said:
I disagree re its effect. I think it's huge. You talk of the pressure of playing for United, well surely you see that pressure would be lessened if it was not Mr Man United, top red and voice of the people Gary Neville doing the criticising? If it's redknapp, carragher, defoe etc. no one cares, the story doesn't get traction and no one talks about it. I agree top professionals can block most of it out (that said we've seen even the goats lash out against stories so it affects everyone) but then we've signed a load of kids. We're meant to be developing Hojlund, Garnacho, Zirkzee, Ugarte, Yoro etc. and yet he's sat there no even mentioning any upside in developing them, which is something Amorim is supposedly good at (another positive). Imagine SAF was in that seat and someone said all the young kids we have are crap, especially given this group despite struggles all seem grafters, he'd had battered them. I don't need Neville to do this all the time, as already said, but just show a bit of fight for the team you support now and then.
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If Nevilles effect is "huge" quantify "huge"? How much of United current pleight is down to negative comments from the media and top red Neville? 5% ? 20% ? 50% ?
In which case, if Gary Neville goes away, do we get 5%, 20%, 50% more wins?

Again, who said the players are crap?

And as i said, Gary Neville has not said anything worse than what their own manager has called them.....
"The worst team, maybe, in the history of Manchester United".

The story only gets traction because United fans on social media start crying about what he says because they somehow feel he needs to be encouraging the team in his role as pundit. They vent about Gary Neville, because venting about managers, owners, players is absolutely fruitless.

Carragher has criticised Liverpool many a time. He calls of Trent for not being able to defend. Should he not do that? Imagine there was a 109 page thread on Jamie Carragher on RAWK where fans are butt hurt because he has said some negative things about the squad. We would be laughing at them.

So if they can't take it, go somewhere else, like Rashford has done. Go to a club where the spotlight is not on you and you can get paid half the salary. You can be on the back end of match of the day, when everyone has fallen asleep and no one will care if you have had a stinker.
 
gaffs said:
Half the Caf call our players crap. Im sure those members still celebrate with a glass of their favorite when we win. Are they not fans?
Or does Gary Neville have to act a different way? Because he has this national stage where, god forbid, he may influence the some people on how to think about football?

And when did he call them crap? He said at the weekend that 10 of the 11 on field wouldn't get into the Spurs side. Where is the lie?

Bruno should give him something back. Or maybe Bruno should keep his powder dry until he has won eight Premier League titles, three FA Cups and two Champions Leagues.
Just one title challenge would be nice.



What is the example? What do you want Neville to spin in order to be kinder to the players?

Do you not want him to point out that you could fit a cruise liner in between the gap Bruno was leaving between he and Casemiro?
Or do you want him to sugar coat it and say, "oh, these are not the regular starters" ?

Where does the blame lie there? Managers instructions? Bruno going rouge? Either way, it is the pundits job to call it our, regardless of the injuries.
The pundit should be pointing out the fact that if you only have Casemiro and Bruno to pick from, find a way for that pairing to not get exposed. He did that, and people dont like it.



The Super League was a tipping point for him, clearly. What will be Fergies tipping point? Or Keanes? Or any other United player who has stayed quiet about The Glazers?



If Nevilles effect is "huge" quantify "huge"? How much of United current pleight is down to negative comments from the media and top red Neville? 5% ? 20% ? 50% ?
In which case, if Gary Neville goes away, do we get 5%, 20%, 50% more wins?

Again, who said the players are crap?

And as i said, Gary Neville has not said anything worse than what their own manager has called them.....
"The worst team, maybe, in the history of Manchester United".

The story only gets traction because United fans on social media start crying about what he says because they somehow feel he needs to be encouraging the team in his role as pundit. They vent about Gary Neville, because venting about managers, owners, players is absolutely fruitless.

Carragher has criticised Liverpool many a time. He calls of Trent for not being able to defend. Should he not do that? Imagine there was a 109 page thread on Jamie Carragher on RAWK where fans are butt hurt because he has said some negative things about the squad. We would be laughing at them.

So if they can't take it, go somewhere else, like Rashford has done. Go to a club where the spotlight is not on you and you can get paid half the salary. You can be on the back end of match of the day, when everyone has fallen asleep and no one will care if you have had a stinker.
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You're just repeating the same questions? The answers to almost all of these are in previous posts, are you even reading responses or just adding more and more text to replies?

Fans do not have the same voice as Neville, to argue against that is ridiculous. And Yes, that is exactly what he should do, but he does not.
You reveal your true colours with the bolded, it seems many fans like Neville need to wake up from living in the past.
I'm going to take a stab at your age, I reckon you are 40 or older, because your posts are basically saying 'you play for United, deal with the pressure' which is completely besides the point of what I am saying for the most part, but that kind of what I would call 'old fashioned' way of thinking and the belligerent style of posting gives me that sense. You may well not be, but the above has ignored essentially all of my replies and recycled questions so either you are not reading what is coming back at you, or you're just a passionate Neville fan. Either is fine, but just make it more concise/don't ask me stuff you did a few hours ago when there's a reply above on it.
 
tomaldinho1 said:
You're just repeating the same questions? The answers to almost all of these are in previous posts, are you even reading responses or just adding more and more text to replies?

Fans do not have the same voice as Neville, to argue against that is ridiculous. And Yes, that is exactly what he should do, but he does not.
You reveal your true colours with the bolded, it seems many fans like Neville need to wake up from living in the past.
I'm going to take a stab at your age, I reckon you are 40 or older, because your posts are basically saying 'you play for United, deal with the pressure' which is completely besides the point of what I am saying for the most part, but that kind of what I would call 'old fashioned' way of thinking and the belligerent style of posting gives me that sense. You may well not be, but the above has ignored essentially all of my replies and recycled questions so either you are not reading what is coming back at you, or you're just a passionate Neville fan. Either is fine, but just make it more concise/don't ask me stuff you did a few hours ago when there's a reply above on it.
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Im recycling questions because you don't answer them!

For example....
You said Nevilles (or the medias) effect on the squad is "huge". So how huge? Quantify it? Tell me how much of in impact "huge" is. If United were under the same media scrutiny as Spurs, how much higher up the table would we be?
If we had the same level of attention than that of Brentford, and no ex players working for Sky Sports, would we be Champions?

Did i say fans have the same voice at Neville? I was pointing out that the "double standard" you accused Neville having are present from the vast majority of fans. We all criticise losses or bad performances and celebrate the wins.

I really dont understand your age argument. Yes, i am saying that the players need to deal with external pressure.
What is your suggested alternative to this? To silence critical voices and just hope that the media decide to not report on United being a shit show?
What exactly are you hoping for here?

And as i keep saying, and you keep ignoring, the most vociferous critic of these players has come from Amorim when the called them the worst MUFC team of all time. Where is your criticism of him?

Explain to me how anyone's age comes into this?
 
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I'm sure the media does impact some players to an extent. To say it's impacting the entire squad? That's ludicrous.

A high quality player should have the attributes to handle critics. United's problem is not what ex players or the media say.
 
gaffs said:
Im recycling questions because you don't answer them!

For example....
You said Nevilles (or the medias) effect on the squad is "huge". So how huge? Quantify it? Tell me how much of in impact "huge" is. If United were under the same media scrutiny as Spurs, how much higher up the table would we be?
If we had the same level of attention than that of Brentford, and no ex players working for Sky Sports, would we be Champions?

Did i say fans have the same voice at Neville? I was pointing out that the "double standard" you accused Neville having are present from the vast majority of fans. We all criticise losses or bad performances and celebrate the wins.

I really dont understand your age argument. Yes, i am saying that the players need to deal with external pressure.
What is your suggested alternative to this? To silence critical voices and just hope that the media decide to not report on United being a shit show?
What exactly are you hoping for here?

Explain to me how anyone's age comes into this?
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I mean there were like 5 you just repeated but anyway.

How can I quantify it? how can anyone? I just think the impact it is much bigger than you seem to think, which is apparently that it's not an issue. I think if there was less negativity we would see players with that little bit more confidence, with this little bit more motivation, especially the young players. It all adds up in a game of very fine margins. Why do our players get the ball in good areas and panic or turn back and not take on the risky shot, why are our attackers making bad choices, it's a combination of many things but one of those is pressure, and they get put under a huge amount of pressure from the media.

Yes but we (as in us in redcaf) can rant away knowing it never reaches the players ears. That is the privilege of not being in the mainstream media, of simply being an angry fan on a forum. If I was absolutely minted and for some reason I simply could not resist being a pundit (like why is he even doing it you have to ask) I would not fill my time up making predominantly negative soundbites about the team I supported. Even if they were absolute turd. The reason he is popular is because, I assume from your responses you are in this bracket, fans such as yourself want someone to verbalise their frustrations so you can relate to it. The idea of 'gary speaks for the fans' or 'he just says what we are thinking' would be fine if he was just a random guy or carra but he is United legend, his voice carries a lot of weight at the club and in football in general. He could be much more tame, balanced or just occasionally show a bit of fight for the club.

The age thing is just because the attitude of 'grin and bear it' is very much from a different time + Neville is also from that different time. That is how people used to react to these things. put up and shut up type attitude. Now we are in an age of social media, everyone has access to everyone and it gets to a point where you can't ignore it unless you delete everything (you might think that is a sacrifice a United player should make, but then players make millions from social media and would just avoid United if that were the case).
 
Garnacho Libre said:
I'm sure the media does impact some players to an extent. To say it's impacting the entire squad? That's ludicrous.

A high quality player should have the attributes to handle critics. United's problem is not what ex players or the media say.
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How would this be two different things?

If one player is affected it affects the whole team if their performance level is even slightly different.
 
tomaldinho1 said:
How would this be two different things?

If one player is affected it affects the whole team if their performance level is even slightly different.
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I'm saying of course it can affect an individual player. But every player in the squad. That is not an excuse IMO.

So it can affect one player, that is not and should not be an excuse for every other player to play bad. It does make a difference but not being 15th in the league difference.
 
tomaldinho1 said:
I mean there were like 5 you just repeated but anyway.

How can I quantify it? how can anyone? I just think the impact it is much bigger than you seem to think, which is apparently that it's not an issue. I think if there was less negativity we would see players with that little bit more confidence, with this little bit more motivation, especially the young players. It all adds up in a game of very fine margins. Why do our players get the ball in good areas and panic or turn back and not take on the risky shot, why are our attackers making bad choices, it's a combination of many things but one of those is pressure, and they get put under a huge amount of pressure from the media.
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I am only asking you to quantify it because you say it was "huge".

Fitness is a "huge" issue. Technically ability is a "huge" issue. Lack of quality coaching for the past few years and allowing players to play off the cuff, at detriment to the team long term, in order to get results is "huge". Not the thread though for me to go on about what i think are the reasons for failure. But i will say that the media pressure and criticism from ex players is way down the list.

tomaldinho1 said:
Yes but we (as in us in redcaf) can rant away knowing it never reaches the players ears. That is the privilege of not being in the mainstream media, of simply being an angry fan on a forum. If I was absolutely minted and for some reason I simply could not resist being a pundit (like why is he even doing it you have to ask) I would not fill my time up making predominantly negative soundbites about the team I supported. Even if they were absolute turd. The reason he is popular is because, I assume from your responses you are in this bracket, fans such as yourself want someone to verbalise their frustrations so you can relate to it. The idea of 'gary speaks for the fans' or 'he just says what we are thinking' would be fine if he was just a random guy or carra but he is United legend, his voice carries a lot of weight at the club and in football in general. He could be much more tame, balanced or just occasionally show a bit of fight for the club.
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I just don't see that as being his responsibility to curb his opinions for fear of impacting the club. And quite frankly, how do we know he isn't doing? It is not like he has ever said anything as cutting as Amorim or Keane have. And he has never called for a manager to be fired.

tomaldinho1 said:
The age thing is just because the attitude of 'grin and bear it' is very much from a different time + Neville is also from that different time. That is how people used to react to these things. put up and shut up type attitude. Now we are in an age of social media, everyone has access to everyone and it gets to a point where you can't ignore it unless you delete everything (you might think that is a sacrifice a United player should make, but then players make millions from social media and would just avoid United if that were the case).
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I would see your point about age and a generational difference if we were talking here about players getting racial or personal abuse online or from the stands. There was a grin and bear it culture back then that has mostly died out in favour of ensuring that people's mental health is ok - im all for that.

But Neville is not saying anything personal or offensive about these players or the manager, is he? He is saying that 10 of 11 would not get into the Spurs team on current form. If that really is going to make a "huge" difference to them, they are not at the right club because the media attention (good and bad) is part and parcel.
 
Garnacho Libre said:
I'm saying of course it can affect an individual player. But every player in the squad. That is not an excuse IMO.

So it can affect one player, that is not and should not be an excuse for every other player to play bad. It does make a difference but not being 15th in the league difference.
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Yes of course, some will deal with it well and others won't. The point is if I were a fan AND a pundit, I would do all in my power to lessen that whilst still criticising in a fair manner. That would likely get me sacked, as the media want the clickbait, but then if I am Gary Neville and worth £20m odd, I'm not that bothered and have many other things taking up my time.
 
tomaldinho1 said:
Yes of course, some will deal with it well and others won't. The point is if I were a fan AND a pundit, I would do all in my power to lessen that whilst still criticising in a fair manner. That would likely get me sacked, as the media want the clickbait, but then if I am Gary Neville and worth £20m odd, I'm not that bothered and have many other things taking up my time.
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I hear you. I think, though, the media has always been like that. It's nothing new. Perhaps its a lot more because it's not just newspapers or TV, it's social media and any opinion to their big followings is only a click away.

Beckham got crucified by the media and his mentality along with fan love got him back. Maguire got slated for a solid two seasons, a whole lot of abuse from fans and the media. Harry also turned it around.

I guess what I'm saying is, media scrutiny can't be an excuse for consistently bad performances. It's always been part of the game.
 
gaffs said:
I am only asking you to quantify it because you say it was "huge".

Fitness is a "huge" issue. Technically ability is a "huge" issue. Lack of quality coaching for the past few years and allowing players to play off the cuff, at detriment to the team long term, in order to get results is "huge". Not the thread though for me to go on about what i think are the reasons for failure. But i will say that the media pressure and criticism from ex players is way down the list.



I just don't see that as being his responsibility to curb his opinions for fear of impacting the club. And quite frankly, how do we know he isn't doing? It is not like he has ever said anything as cutting as Amorim or Keane have. And he has never called for a manager to be fired.



I would see your point about age and a generational difference if we were talking here about players getting racial or personal abuse online or from the stands. There was a grin and bear it culture back then that has mostly died out in favour of ensuring that people's mental health is ok - im all for that.

But Neville is not saying anything personal or offensive about these players or the manager, is he? He is saying that 10 of 11 would not get into the Spurs team on current form. If that really is going to make a "huge" difference to them, they are not at the right club because the media attention (good and bad) is part and parcel.
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Yes of course it makes up one part of a plethora of skills required for footballers to perform. The point is Neville, or which ever pundit is speaking, is in control of how sensationalist they want to be, Neville is not as crass as Scholes (and here I feel we're recycling that argument as I remember writing this before) but he is selective about who he supports, who he gives a pass to etc. and joins in with the unnecessary pile on of the players. I know you just dismissed the glazer thing but it's textbook, 'oh I felt I couldn't speak on it before now I can.'

It's not his responsibility, it is his choice. That is the entire point. I have some understanding of clowns like Goldbridge, he was a normal randomer without money and created this ridiculous online persona (I assume it is a persona) because that was literally their job. With G Nev he wants to be the face of football, he wants to be the person people ask about United, why else is he there? He also gave an interview saying now he's 50 so he wants to get off screens be in the background more, we shall see I guess.

I look at his actions and don't see much awareness of the player's. Again, he doesn't have to walk on eggshells, just be more tactful. As aid, he is less crass than Scholes but he does say those things just in a less obvious way. If 10 or of 11 players don't get into the side of a lower half team you can assume he doesn't think they're very good i.e. he's not comparing them to Pool or Real Madrid. If he criticises Amorim's tactical setup and says he's not shown anything yet, then says he needs three windows it is a) a bit mixed, but b) also just saying the players must be crap. And the whole segment was on them being poor, it was pretty unequivocal. He also never specifically says 'sack x, y or z' but he and the other class of 92 made Mou's life very difficult, they also turned on LVG, he made a lot of comments about ETH like 'we know how this ends' without ever spelling it out. I honestly mind the manager bashing less, I feel like they are battle hardened narcissists who can take it, but half our team is like 20-22ish years old right now.
 
Garnacho Libre said:
I hear you. I think, though, the media has always been like that. It's nothing new. Perhaps its a lot more because it's not just newspapers or TV, it's social media and any opinion to their big followings is only a click away.

Beckham got crucified by the media and his mentality along with fan love got him back. Maguire got slated for a solid two seasons, a whole lot of abuse from fans and the media. Harry also turned it around.

I guess what I'm saying is, media scrutiny can't be an excuse for consistently bad performances. It's always been part of the game.
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Agreed, I do wonder if Neville actually understands the more I think of it. He was in a dressing room full of winners, with SAF who was uber protective and would take journos on aggressively, the worst he had to contend with would have been print media and there were many other 'stars' who the media would go after over him - and the sensationalist headlines tended to be more about footballers boozing, partying etc. because that is what sold at the time. Now footballers don't do that stuff, I guess the new way of keeping the attention is this over the top fawning over good performance, declaring players the best ever etc. at every turn or just hammering, non stop, any bad performance.
 
tomaldinho1 said:
Agreed, I do wonder if Neville actually understands the more I think of it. He was in a dressing room full of winners, with SAF who was uber protective and would take journos on aggressively, the worst he had to contend with would have been print media and there were many other 'stars' who the media would go after over him - and the sensationalist headlines tended to be more about footballers boozing, partying etc. because that is what sold at the time. Now footballers don't do that stuff, I guess the new way of keeping the attention is this over the top fawning over good performance, declaring players the best ever etc. at every turn or just hammering, non stop, any bad performance.
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That's true! Neville himself never really had to bare the brunt of much criticism. Apart from that as you said, he was in a team of winners who had high standards and he clearly sees those standards are not there for enough players.

I do think that stuff has always happened. The media and not just them, everyone! We build someone up to being great and we love their downfall.

Pep was built up to the last, did well for many years, and now we love his downfall. I'm using him as a current example.
 
SuperiorXI said:
He's supposed to be highlighting things the average fan doesn't see, that's the job of a pundit, to provide insight. Nothing he is saying is particularly groundbreaking when it's aligned to what Joe public is already saying down the pub. How about tell us how he thinks it can be fixed, what measures to take, rather than being negative the way he is.
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that's certainly not a pundit's job
 
Garnacho Libre said:
That's true! Neville himself never really had to bare the brunt of much criticism. Apart from that as you said, he was in a team of winners who had high standards and he clearly sees those standards are not there for enough players.

I do think that stuff has always happened. The media and not just them, everyone! We build someone up to being great and we love their downfall.

Pep was built up to the last, did well for many years, and now we love his downfall. I'm using him as a current example.
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One of the reasons he didn't face much criticism is there wasn't much to criticise.. and when he realised he was starting to slow down and would have critics, he was decent and honest enough to call it a day rather than go on being paid for under-performing or sitting on the bench
 
mitchmouse said:
One of the reasons he didn't face much criticism is there wasn't much to criticise.. and when he realised he was starting to slow down and would have critics, he was decent and honest enough to call it a day rather than go on being paid for under-performing or sitting on the bench
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Exactly and I guess that's because he did his very best and also produced results. Personally I feel he was underrated as a player. I remember being at OT for a few games in Ronaldo's second season and it was Gary who was guiding him and giving instructions etc.. I'm not saying Ronaldo became the player he is because of Gary but he definitely helped him early on. It's kind of easy to see why he gets so frustrated as a pundit because the standards the current players have are miles behind when he was there.
 
He's a miserable, negative and biased commentator, but having met him quite a few times over the years in a professional aspect, he's a really nice bloke. Cheery as well, surprisingly. Only seems to go into moody mode when he's talking about United or business, other than that he's a normal Northern bloke that's still close to his roots. No real airs and graces about him, clearly minted beyond belief but doesn't flaunt it.

Swears like a trooper mind, and that's coming from me that uses the C word as a term of endearment.

I prefer him to Carragher as a pundit, purely as I can't stand the teeth kissing Carra does before every sentence, or how he makes out he was the better player when Neville was a World class player playing for his local club, and Carragher was just a good player playing for his local club.

It's funny how over the years people have made Neville out to be some average player that was lucky to be part of such a great team. He was actually part of what made that great team a great team - his brother was the lucky one as he was just a good player, never brilliant. He's there as one of the best right backs the PL has ever seen for me. If he was a bit quicker he'd likely be the best of them all.

Never really let England down either, unlike most of our full/wing backs ever since.

He's awful to listen on live matches mind, but I like him on the MNF stuff or when it's just some off the cuff chat about football in general. I'd take him over 90% of the pundits that's for sure. McManaman, Murphy, Redknapp, Cole, Richards, Hargreaves etc - they all make me want to chew my own arm off just so I've got something to throw at the TV.
 
Frostie said:
He's a miserable, negative and biased commentator, but having met him quite a few times over the years in a professional aspect, he's a really nice bloke. Cheery as well, surprisingly. Only seems to go into moody mode when he's talking about United or business, other than that he's a normal Northern bloke that's still close to his roots. No real airs and graces about him, clearly minted beyond belief but doesn't flaunt it.

Swears like a trooper mind, and that's coming from me that uses the C word as a term of endearment.

I prefer him to Carragher as a pundit, purely as I can't stand the teeth kissing Carra does before every sentence, or how he makes out he was the better player when Neville was a World class player playing for his local club, and Carragher was just a good player playing for his local club.

It's funny how over the years people have made Neville out to be some average player that was lucky to be part of such a great team. He was actually part of what made that great team a great team - his brother was the lucky one as he was just a good player, never brilliant. He's there as one of the best right backs the PL has ever seen for me. If he was a bit quicker he'd likely be the best of them all.

Never really let England down either, unlike most of our full/wing backs ever since.

He's awful to listen on live matches mind, but I like him on the MNF stuff or when it's just some off the cuff chat about football in general. I'd take him over 90% of the pundits that's for sure. McManaman, Murphy, Redknapp, Cole, Richards, Hargreaves etc - they all make me want to chew my own arm off just so I've got something to throw at the TV.
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They're all essentially playing a part when it comes to football punditry.

As an ex journalist, I have a lot of friends that have worked for Sky at different points and they all say that (with the odd exception) most of them quite sound and cheery off camera.
 
KStandBarmyArmy1993 said:
They're all essentially playing a part when it comes to football punditry.

As an ex journalist, I have a lot of friends that have worked for Sky at different points and they all say that (with the odd exception) most of them quite sound and cheery off camera.
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Yeah, it's all a persona/mask with them for the most part.

Aside from a few. I used to know Stevie Nicol's niece, quite well shall we say, and I met him on numerous occasions when he wasn't sunning it up. He's as grumpy in real life as he is on camera, but maintains that Scottish sarcasm and he'll often wink at you after what seems like an insult. The whole Mr. Grump thing isn't an act though, that's him. His wife is lovely however, proper welcoming.

I met Grobelaar once at a charity do. He's as mad as a box of frogs and very salty, or at least he was then as he'd clearly sunk a gallon or so. I can't imagine him ever being a pundit, or if he was they'd never let him loose on a live broadcast.

Worst one was Teddy Sheringham, another charity do with a lot of really rich people bidding on memorabilia, again for charity. What an absolute clown that man was. If I'd have been 20 when I met him I'd likely have snapped his jaw clean in two, but I was about 35 and by that point had learned to just walk away from Juan Kerrs as it's not worth the aggro. I genuinely did want to give a good right hook though, such an arrogant, rude and entitled see you next Tuesday.
 
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