Television Game of Thrones (TV) • The watch has ended

[Dante]

I just watch it for escapism. As a spectacle the season delivered. I can join some of the dots up that they didn't bother going into.

Yeah some if it seemed off but I can live with it.

The first half was good. So was the final montage.

The tone of the third quarter was too light-hearted for a series like this, imo. But I guess they needed a palate cleanser for the viewers.

As I said last night, I re-watched eps 4 and 5 in the hours leading up to the finale and everything hit home much better because I knew what was coming.

I didn't think that ep 6 was anything close to 10/10, but I imagine it'll get better on second watch when binge-watched along with the rest of the season. The show went a bit weird for 20 minutes, which can seem like a big chunk of a single episode. But I get the feeling that if you include a longer run up of scenes from the season opener, it'll feel a bit more satisfying. Hopefully, anyway.

 

[Sylar]

But that doesn't make sense now does it? There have been so many hints this season of Greyworm not trusting Jon. Just this episode they nearly have a showdown when he's murdering the Lannister soldiers. Even Dany being vary of Jon that it doesn't make sense that she was left alone.

But shes the queen. If she wants to be left alone at the throne, and is surrounded by a dragon, she will be left alone. None of her soldiers will say no, they will listen and obey like theyve always done. Dany at that moment trusted Jon. As paranoid as she may have been, she was at the throne and got what she wanted.

As I said, for me, thats the one thing I wouldnt complain about.

 

[Jagga7]

The memes on /r/freefolk have been/are gold. They made the season for me.

 

[Mr Pigeon]

Art is subjective to a degree.

If someone was to shit on a canvas and the other was say a painting by Da Vinci - there is no way that you can logically argue that the shit on the canvas has more artistic merit without coming across a bit of tit or arguing for the sake of argument.

The execution of that episode was poor - it started off well - but you can’t seriously argue that the directing of those council scenes and what came after it or the decision to skip the aftermath of Danys death etc are good directing and execution. I’m sorry it’s not arrogant to say that is just shit tv. Nothing to do with subjectivity there - it’s just your take on it is flawed.

And herein lies the problem; you're impossible to debate with because of hyperbole like this. You didn't like it, that's fine, I too didn't like the series overall. I also thought that this final episode was too rushed. However, comments like yours just make me question whether or not you can even think about this episode rationally.

And once again; if you use the equivalent of "I'm right and you're wrong" about something that isn't an objective fact then, yeso buckaroo, you are arrogant. And pompous, please don't forget pompous. Very important, that one.

 

[Dante]

I reckon it would be better than the finale at least.

But then, so would staring at a blank wall for an hour or so.

You're written really badly and you make no sense.

Story checks out.

 

[SquishyMcSquish]

I'm not satisfied with how it was told, but I'm satisfied that the ending pieces ended as they were.

I'd rather not have people snarkily laughing if I thought a finale wasn't that bad, bit of a silly question to ask why I have a problem with it. Especially after you followed it up with "you can enjoy it all you like".

As for your bit about GRRMs ending not being the same:



He says the major characters are all in sync with how he plans to end it. The secondary characters are different. To me this means he may decide that Bronn does something else or Brienne is somewhere else, but who ends up being King and what happens to the Stark seems to be aligned with what GRRM planned. He says they had story conferences to make sure the major characters are in sync with what he wants to do in the future books.

He says he doesn't THINK the ending is going to be much different. Why do you think GRRM hasn't talked about or promoted the show at all? He doesn't like it. He promoted some random show about vikings but hasn't said a word about the final season based on his epic saga. There's zero chance he's written it the same way, although I doubt we'll ever actually get to see how he writes it. I imagine some of the general decisions (Sansa queen in the north, daenerys dead, Jon to the wall) will be the same but that's not what anybody has an issue with.

It's how they got there and all the mundane, insipid crap they threw in to the final season that people have an issue with, and the scenes we missed out on. We get Brienne writing in a book but not Greyworm actually reacting to the death of Daenerys? We just skip straight to a weird council scene which completely destroys the pacing of the episode?

 

[SquishyMcSquish]

You're written really badly and you make no sense.

Story checks out.

Holy shit, are you finally admitting it was bad?

Breakthrough.

 

[Dante]

Holy shit, are you finally admitting it was bad?

Breakthrough.

Are you admitting that your opinions on the show are all wrong?

 

[SquishyMcSquish]

I mean this is an issue I have with it. Im not saying this season was great. But I can almost guarantee, every fan fiction out there would have elements of terrible issues with it just because I reckon writing is easier than writing + translating it onto screen in a limited time + budget, etc.

Ive certainly gone ahead in guessing / fantasy booking stuff, but I also know translating it might not be the easiest with constraints, hence things would have to be changed.

Well yeah but that's fan fiction, these guys are paid writers handling the biggest show in television. The fact that most fan fiction would be on par (or superior to) the way they wrote the finale is pretty damning.

 

[VP89]

He says he doesn't THINK the ending is going to be much different. Why do you think GRRM hasn't talked about or promoted the show at all? He doesn't like it. He promoted some random show about vikings but hasn't said a word about the final season based on his epic saga. There's zero chance he's written it the same way, although I doubt we'll ever actually get to see how he writes it. I imagine some of the general decisions (Sansa queen in the north, daenerys dead, Jon to the wall) will be the same but that's not what anybody has an issue with.

It's how they got there and all the mundane, insipid crap they threw in to the final season that people have an issue with, and the scenes we missed out on. We get Brienne writing in a book but not Greyworm actually reacting to the death of Daenerys? We just skip straight to a weird council scene which completely destroys the pacing of the episode?

Jesus why are you arguing over it now? He literally says I don't think the ending will be different because we've had many story conferences to make sure it's in sync with major characters. And your best reply is "he said he thinks". Really?

If that's not proof that the show ended with how GRRM planned to end major pieces then feck knows what is. It obviously went the way he planned because he'd have undoubtedly had creative rights on where to go next. You'd need to be some serious conspiracist to claim the writers who depended on him so much (and are big fans of his work no less) suddenly go rogue despite having so many conferences with him on how it goes

As I said, I'm pleased with where the characters ended up but not so pleased with how it was told. As a finale they did the best job they could have given the time (barring Jon snows punishment).

 

[RochaRoja]

I mean this is an issue I have with it. Im not saying this season was great. But I can almost guarantee, every fan fiction out there would have elements of terrible issues with it just because I reckon writing is easier than writing + translating it onto screen in a limited time + budget, etc.

Yeah, pretty much every alternative fan fic plot I’ve seen for the ending of GoT has been waaay worse. GRRM is probably rubbing his hands with glee that D+D will take all the flak for “their” ending rather than having to release a massively underwhelming final book after over 20 years.

 

[SquishyMcSquish]

Jesus why are you arguing over it now? He literally says I don't think the ending will be different because we've had many story conferences to make sure it's in sync with major characters. And your best reply is "he said he thinks". Really?

If that's not proof that the show ended with how GRRM planned to end major pieces then feck knows what is. It obviously went the way he planned because he'd have undoubtedly had creative rights on where to go next.

As I said, I'm pleased with where the characters ended up but not so pleased with how it was told. As a finale they did the best job they could have given the time (barring Jon snows punishment).

No he didn't. They've made multiple significant changes to the storyline and he has no right to decide what they did with it.

If you believe that this was exactly the vision GRRM had in mind for the show, fine, whatever.

They did the best job they could? Ok. Honestly, I don't see the point in discussing this, if you honestly think that was the best way they could possibly put that on screen then we're at an impasse.

 

[Sylar]

9.9 rating on IMDB and 100% on Rotten tomatoes for the series Finale tell us otherwise. It is based on the over all reviews, not couple of geeks sitting on social media.

But again, what youre showing me is not how it was perceived at the time. Which at the time it wasnt seen as great. But was seen as decent. GoT ending season is defo seen as worse right now (and thats obviously due to a bigger jump in quality, as it had space for a bigger fall than BB). Its defo seen as better over time however which is the point I was making.

 

[Suv666]

Why are people pissed about people being pissed. Folks who have read the books or followed the series religiously have a right to be pissed.

 

[hungrywing]

I honestly thought the murder would be discovered by Grey worm and some guards / Dothraki just after it happened. Drogon would stand between them and Jon and then try to burn Jon. However, he'd emerge unhurt from the flames witnessed by Grey worm et al who would then drop to their knees in recognition of the true heir.

Surely a better ending than what we got.

Even better - and you might have meant this - insert a moment between Drogon and Jon re Drogon knows Jon won't burn.

'Trouble' is then if you really really want to complete J. Snow's story he has to choose to stand trial/go north (and then keep the same ending) but-omg-we-only-have-four-minutes-left-aaaaah.

'Trouble' in quotes 'cause this shit is complicated and every change opens up a dozen others.

 

[FlawlessThaw]

If I'm not completely mistaken they are all asked for approval of Bran. They are there, because they are prominent characters in the story, not because of some political logic, D&D have kind of forgotten about that a long time ago.

I agree the fact they were all asked for approval makes little sense, even Davos points it out. But there was some logic to why they were there. Technically Jon was the Lord of the North anyway so makes sense his family would come down to support.

 

[Dante]

I mean this is an issue I have with it. Im not saying this season was great. But I can almost guarantee, every fan fiction out there would have elements of terrible issues with it just because I reckon writing is easier than writing + translating it onto screen in a limited time + budget, etc.

Ive certainly gone ahead in guessing / fantasy booking stuff, but I also know translating it might not be the easiest with constraints, hence things would have to be changed.

There's a lot of butthurt going around because fan theories have been proven wrong.

When they spend years of their lives attempting to be smug on the internet, only to be told their "genius" theories are wrong, of course they'll throw a wobbly.

Season 8 as a whole (as in, taken as a single binge) was overall very good, save for the Bran selection sequence. Luckily for me, I never tried too hard to speculate or predict, so I have nothing to get too salty about.

 

[Suv666]

But again, what youre showing me is not how it was perceived at the time. Which at the time it wasnt seen as great. But was seen as decent. GoT ending season is defo seen as worse right now (and thats obviously due to a bigger jump in quality, as it had space for a bigger fall than BB). Its defo seen as better over time however which is the point I was making.

Its more like a section of audience didnt like it but GOT was universally panned. It would serve as an example of what not to do in a series finale.

 

[Oldyella]

There's no chance whatsover GRRM's ending is exactly like this. I can see Daenerys going mad and burnings Kings Landing in the books, but it won't be the exact same ending. Nor will it be handled so clumsily in the books or reek so much of fan service where everybody gets what they want. I can tell you now for certain that Bronn will not be made Lord of the fecking Reach in the books because it's totally fecking stupid writing, like most of the final 30 minutes.

You can enjoy whatever you want, why do you care if I find it funny that you think it was a decent end? It's amusing to me that people actually sit through that and are satisfied, yes. Having watched the other 7 seasons you've sat through that episode and thought that was consistent with the quality of the rest of the show? Fair enough, good for you.

Books if they ever come will obviously be better explained as we will get the protagonists thoughts which tv can't do without clunky exposition. Some of the issues I have with the ending relate to the need to drag back in every actor who made it through the show. There was no need for Bronn at all this season, same with a few other characters too. But I enjoyed the final episode for all its faults and was happy with where the main players ended up. Still think one more episode would have been better if it ended with Jon doing what he did and he audience not knowing what happened.(I honestly half expected Jon to kill himself at that point rather then kill another girlfriend..)

 

[VP89]

No he didn't. They've made multiple significant changes to the storyline and he has no right to decide what they did with it.

If you believe that this was exactly the vision GRRM had in mind for the show, fine, whatever.

They did the best job they could? Ok. Honestly, I don't see the point in discussing this, if you honestly think that was the best way they could possibly put that on screen then we're at an impasse.

GRRM literally says he's had conferences with them, numerous ones to make sure they are in sync with his view of major characters. That means he has creative rights (not legally, but practically). He also says he doesn't think it ends in a way that's different to his in outcome (note he would have certainly been one of the few to see the final scripts here).

Just stop arguing with the end bits now, GRRM has pretty much said he would have ended it in the same way with major characters.

The finale was 1hr 20 long, to wrap it all up in that time.. Its the best it could have been. Ideally they needed to extend the whole show by a couple seasons but they couldn't.

Seriously laughable you're still trying to claim GRRM had no creative input into where the show goes when he's literally filmed saying the opposite

 

[diarm]

Meh.

The show has been shite for a while now, although seasons 6 and 7 at least had the odd good episode thrown in to keep us hooked. At least season 8 has removed any sense of disappointment that it's over.

It is sad that they took something brilliant, that so many people had invested so much time into, and turned it to shit.

Great characters, developed slowly and with complex paths, were either ruined in the space of a couple of episodes (Bronn, Greyworm) or just dismissed without a second thought (Cersei, Gendry). How does Edmure fecking Tully get a bigger final scene than the evil Queen of the Seven Kingdoms or so many other amazing personalities?

We invested hours, often multiple episodes where little happened except deep and layered character development, only for the payoff to be rushed timelines and jump scenes papering over crucial and intriguing final moments, hours and days.

Seasons 1-4 are among the best tv I've ever watched but to be honest, apart from some spectacular set pieces, everything since then has been gradually descending towards the shite of these last 6 episodes.

I thought the Brienne finishing Jaime's pages in the book scene was good and there were a few good dragon scenes but it all pales in comparison to the shiteness of the trial and small council scenes, the dialogue and the final scenes.

Even Arya, who was my favourite character throughout, has been ruined somewhat for me by just plain bad storytelling. I can't even muster a whisper of excitement for her inevitable journey into the west in search of newfound sequels.

How could a company as successful as HBO let the disinterest and apathy of two gobshites who'd had their heads turned by Star Wars destroy something that was so good? They had to have known or they wouldn't have advocated for more episodes and more money to do things properly. The minute D&D refused that they should have been turfed out on their ears.

I'd pay a lot to have the memory of the last few seasons erased and to have someone with the talent and passion for the job remake the second half of the series.

 

[SquishyMcSquish]

Its more like a section of audience didnt like it but GOT was universally panned. It would serve as an example of what not to do in a series finale.

Yeah, you'll get the people on this thread pretending it's a few basement nerds who disliked the finale, when really it's pretty much being roundly criticised and will absolutely be considered one of the most disappointing finales in television history. That will be its legacy.

 

[Sylar]

Well yeah but that's fan fiction, these guys are paid writers handling the biggest show in television. The fact that most fan fiction would be on par (or superior to) the way they wrote the finale is pretty damning.

But again, writing is different to translating within constraints.
I actually do think I could write a much better season (esp in hindsight) but it would probably require more budget. Granted a lot of it is their own issues as they were granted more time / budget. But I also wonder if the actors pay could be a factor in all of this. We wont know fully.

As I said, I dont think the season is as bad as most on here make out. Hell some of the episodes were badly rated before they even aired. The Leaks out there didnt help (not sure how accurate they were).

I do however think its not right to slate those who liked most of it, if not aspects of it. Game of opinions afterall.

 

[FlawlessThaw]

Tarly is in the Night's Watch so he can't represent anyone and they don't have a say in it. It should have only been either Sansa or Bran. Arya hold's no power except the weird amount of plot power D&D have given her. Brienne is the Lady of Tarth, but I think her father might have power there. Essentially they were all there because D&D wanted them to be there. It made no sense and Sansa interrupting someone's claim to be king should really have got her told to feck off at the least.

Then she just has the North leave the 7 kingdoms because she feels like it, like it's an option to say goodbye to your sovereign rulers and go rule yourself because you feel like it.

As Jon mentions, did the Night's Watch even exist anymore? Seems as though Sam's place in the Night Watch no longer is there given that was ends up Grandmaester by the end.

Tarth has no real power in the Seven Kingdoms, so I think Brienne was there only to provide support to Sansa. I agree though the fact they were given a vote doesn't make much sense.

And to be fair to Sansa she did get Bran's permission to leave the Seven Kingdoms.

 

[sullydnl]

Bad though the writing was, some of the alternatives you guys come up with might actually be worse. Which I'm nearly impressed by.

 

[SquishyMcSquish]

GRRM literally says he's had conferences with them, numerous ones to make sure they are in sync with his view of major characters. That means he has creative rights (not legally, but practically). He also says he doesn't think it ends in a way that's different to his in outcome (note he would have certainly been one of the few to see the final scripts here).

Just stop arguing with the end bits now, GRRM has pretty much said he would have ended it in the same way with major characters.

The finale was 1hr 20 long, to wrap it all up in that time.. Its the best it could have been. Ideally they needed to extend the whole show by a couple seasons but they couldn't.

Seriously laughable you're still trying to claim GRRM had no creative input into where the show goes when he's literally filmed saying the opposite

They can make any changes they like. I've literally already said that some of the major decisions will remain the same, but a lot of the details about how they get there will undoubtedly have been changed by D&D. And how they get there is incredibly important.

Of course he had creative input, he just didn't have the final say and a lot of significant details would have been altered. And just because he had creative input doesn't mean it'll line up exactly the same way as the show did either.

 

[Dante]

As Jon mentions, did the Night's Watch even exist anymore? Seems as though Sam's place in the Night Watch no longer is there given that was ends up Grandmaester by the end.

Tarth has no real power in the Seven Kingdoms, so I think Brienne was there only to provide support to Sansa. I agree though the fact they were given a vote doesn't make much sense.

And to be fair to Sansa she did get Bran's permission to leave the Seven Kingdoms.

I think they've become a police/peace keeper force to keep the Wildlings in check. North of the Wall is basically lawless, so there needs to be a border force at the very least.

 

[Sylar]

There's a lot of butthurt going around because fan theories have been proven wrong.

When they spend years of their lives attempting to be smug on the internet, only to be told their "genius" theories are wrong, of course they'll throw a wobbly.

Season 8 as a whole (as in, taken as a single binge) was overall very good, save for the Bran selection sequence. Luckily for me, I never tried too hard to speculate or predict, so I have nothing to get too salty about.

I speculated, but that was part of the fun with a phenom like this. But Im not overally disappointed if I guessed wrong.
I go based on what I see rather than what I wanted to happen. I do think s8 will be better with a binge watch (much like s7) whereas seasons before were defo better with weekly watches. (S5 for different reasons).

 

[VP89]

They can make any changes they like. I've literally already said that some of the major decisions will remain the same, but a lot of the details about how they get there will undoubtedly have been changed by D&D. And how they get there is incredibly important.

Of course he had creative input, he just didn't have the final say and a lot of significant details would have been altered. And just because he had creative input doesn't mean it'll line up exactly the same way as the show did either.

I doubt the outcome is significantly different, because he says it likely wouldn't be and I believe him. I know you're probably hurt to know that even GRRM would end the show with the same level of fan service but hey ho.

And I agree the writing is shoddy. But the finale was an hour and a bit long. Before starting the episode I had a low expectation because it couldn't salvage much. All things considered they didn't feck it up much, it was placed as well as it could be in limited time.

Sure I didn't enjoy seeing Bronn pop up but it's a minor complaint all things considered.

 

[Eboue]

Having slept on it, I think the episode is actually pretty good. I'm glad sansa didnt get the throne because women and hysterical and dont use logic so it was really down to Bran or Jon and grey worm (who also doesnt have a penis and doesnt understand thst facts dont care about feelings) made sure Jon couldnt have it.

 

[Dante]

GRRM literally says he's had conferences with them, numerous ones to make sure they are in sync with his view of major characters. That means he has creative rights (not legally, but practically). He also says he doesn't think it ends in a way that's different to his in outcome (note he would have certainly been one of the few to see the final scripts here).

Just stop arguing with the end bits now, GRRM has pretty much said he would have ended it in the same way with major characters.

The finale was 1hr 20 long, to wrap it all up in that time.. Its the best it could have been. Ideally they needed to extend the whole show by a couple seasons but they couldn't.

Seriously laughable you're still trying to claim GRRM had no creative input into where the show goes when he's literally filmed saying the opposite

They can make any changes they like. I've literally already said that some of the major decisions will remain the same, but a lot of the details about how they get there will undoubtedly have been changed by D&D. And how they get there is incredibly important.

Of course he had creative input, he just didn't have the final say and a lot of significant details would have been altered. And just because he had creative input doesn't mean it'll line up exactly the same way as the show did either.

VP89 is talking about reality, whereas Squishy is guessing at stuff.

 

[FlawlessThaw]

I think they've become a police/peace keeper force to keep the Wildlings in check. North of the Wall is basically lawless, so there needs to be a border force at the very least.

Probably the aim, though as Tyrion says it's more of a place to send bastards and broken things. I also don't think Jon is staying with the Night's Watch.

 

[SquishyMcSquish]

I doubt the outcome is significantly different, because he says it likely wouldn't be and I believe him. I know you're probably hurt to know that even GRRM would end the show with the same level of fan service but hey ho.

The fan servicey bits are stuff like Bronn getting to be Lord of the Reach, which would make zero sense in the books and be completely illogical. He's nowhere near as big a character in the books and has been given an inflated role in the tv series because he was a fan favourite.

Those kind of details could absolutely be altered. The major plot lines (who becomes king/queen etc) will likely remain the same, so Brann will probably end up as King.

 

[SquishyMcSquish]

VP89 is talking about reality, whereas Squishy is guessing at stuff.

Yes, the reality is that the books will be written exactly the same way as the TV show, because that's how things work and tv/movie directors never take liberties with written material.

GRRM has just remained completely silent on the show because he's just in so much shock at how well they've done with his material.

 

[Dante]

I speculated, but that was part of the fun with a phenom like this. But Im not overally disappointed if I guessed wrong.
I go based on what I see rather than what I wanted to happen. I do think s8 will be better with a binge watch (much like s7) whereas seasons before were defo better with weekly watches. (S5 for different reasons).

Very true.

GoT has shifted from being a TV serialisation (early seasons) to being a feature film franchise (seasons 7 and 8). That's why the pacing has changed. It's also why characterisation is handled differently between, say, The Wire and The Godfather.

 

[Dante]

Yes, the reality is that the books will be written exactly the same way as the TV show, because that's how things work and tv/movie directors never take liberties with written material.

GRRM has just remained completely silent on the show because he's just in so much shock at how well they've done with his material.

He's been doing loads of interviews in the last few weeks.

 

[Samid]

"GRRM has remained completely silent on the show"

There's literally a new interview with him talking about the show every time I open youtube.

 

[Dante]

"GRRM has remained completely silent on the show"

There's literally a new interview with him talking about the show every time I open youtube.

Those interviews are rushed CGI by D&D. Or something.

 

[Sylar]

One of the things though, I do think it shows how difficult it is, given that the actual author is struggling to finish his own book. He must have had so many re-writes due to something conflicting with something else. And all that with no constraint or time limit for himself.

What was said earlier in this thread is right, making one change to the story, might just open up another list of complex issues to resolve. Im not saying I have all the answers, and not saying that the finale (or final seasons) are great.

I think having shorter seasons made it impossible to not have time jumps and miss out certain scenes which would have helped the show. But if im looking overall at the series and not individual episodes, I would still give it a 8/10.

 

[SquishyMcSquish]

He's been doing loads of interviews in the last few weeks.

He literally said he doesn't even watch the show any more because he doesn't have time for television shows, and then went on to promote a different tv show .