Television Game of Thrones (TV) • The watch has ended

Wumminator said:
Dany’s turn was never fecking turned. Saying she had a mad family is not foreshadowing.

She’s literally been the nicest holier than thou character for about fifty years.
Click to expand...
Daenerys is basically Mary Poppins until this inexplicable bout of ultra violence? I mean she has been pretty violent and regularly reigned in by her advisors. She's been getting talked out of incinerating King's Landing for absolutely ages by people she trusted who betrayed her or died.
It's not like fecking Mickey Mouse just started knifing Goofy for no reason. Although I'd like to see that.
 
@Sylar - I'm going to have to disagree if you think an 8 episode long build up with subtle hints to the Boltons turning (which very few except book readers predicted) is the same as Daenerys becoming Mad this Season (which everyone predicted). I respect your ability to love the show through thick and thin though.
 
GhastlyHun said:
Do we have to go through every death at her hand, again? Torching women and children for no reason has never been on the plate.
Click to expand...
And you can see no plot reasons for why her moral lines may have collapsed? You recall no scenes of her literally being talked out of burning cities, by people who are dead or betrayed her? You can't see that as a logical escalation in the circumstances?
 
Massive Spanner said:
I mean, I thought it was blatantly obvious once Tyrion mentioned the bells to her a million times that she wouldn't actually do what she promised him and would go mad queen instead. Maybe it was supposed to be twist but did anyone really not see it coming?
Click to expand...

I'm very sure a lot of casual fans didn't see it coming given the reaction online but I guess most who follow the show in a nerdier/smarter way knew she was going to go bad. They had certainly made it pretty clear in advance. Basically once Sam called her out in episode 1 of this season it was definitely on.

The way she went bad was a bit of a surprise though, no? Even if you knew she was going to go bad, her attacking the City when the war was already won was a surprise. If you'd asked me how she would go bad I would have guessed her executing Tyrion or making the decision to sacrifice civilians for the sake of winning the war, not a completely unneccessary war crime out of anger. It was a much bigger leap than I had expected.

I can be quite bad at this show though so maybe that was just me. I thought hiding in the crypts in winterfell was a good idea until someone pointed out why it wasn't. :nervous:
 
GhastlyHun said:
Do we have to go through every death at her hand, again? Torching women and children for no reason has never been on the plate.
Click to expand...

It's weird people are pretending it has.

She's done dodgy stuff before, but all for justifiable reasons. Executing slavers, killing the Tarlys who were soldiers in open rebellion against her, burning Varys for trying to poison her etc etc .. it's all violent stuff, but no worse than Ned Stark lopping off a kids head because he abandoned the Night's Watch, or Jon killing Ollie because he betrayed him. Her decisions have all been tough but understandable ones, but underpinning all that has been a sense of justice and a clear desire to protect the innocent and oppressed.

At no point has she ever gone out and slaughtered for the sake of slaughtering, that's a massive leap from any of her previous actions. A ruler executing people for betraying them and slaughtering civilians who were just seeking is a huuuuuuge leap. Yes she's been through a lot, but previously she's survived being sold off and raped, watching her brother get brutally murdered, her husband die and another million horrible things without losing her mind, she was hardened by those things but never broken.

For me this was just a massive leap for her character in a very short episode. We saw her looking haggard and upset and the next minute she's turning the population of King's Landing in to a barbeque, not just to serve a military purpose but because she's seemingly having a fabulous time.
 
Wumminator said:
Dany’s turn was never fecking turned. Saying she had a mad family is not foreshadowing.

She’s literally been the nicest holier than thou character for about fifty years.
Click to expand...

Any time someone has wronged her she's went with the cruel response. She's a Targaryen, not mad though. None of the Targs have been "mad". It's their natural instinct to take and destroy without scruples. She had advisors to hold her back whenever she wanted to burn everything down in the past, but now she's just lost it. This is exactly what GRRM is expected to do, he's backed up the theories himself, it's just that D&D have done a god awful job of setting it up.
 
2mufc0 said:
Can’t see any way back from that, the show will be a complete joke if she has a sudden change of heart.

Unfortunately they are building it up for Arya to take her out.
Click to expand...
That's what I think. I don't have the hate for Arya that some on here have though.
 
Fingeredmouse said:
Daenerys is basically Mary Poppins until this inexplicable bout of ultra violence? I mean she has been pretty violent and regularly reigned in by her advisors. She's been getting talked out of incinerating King's Landing for absolutely ages by people she trusted who betrayed her or died.
It's not like fecking Mickey Mouse just started knifing Goofy for no reason. Although I'd like to see that.
Click to expand...
I might start watching Disney if that happened.
 
Fingeredmouse said:
And you can see no plot reasons for why her moral lines may have collapsed? You recall no scenes of her literally being talked out of burning cities, by people who are dead or betrayed her? You can't see that as a logical escalation in the circumstances?
Click to expand...


She was going to set alight to the Red Keep previously, which again made sense and was a justifiable desire.

At no point has she been talked out of deliberately torching civilians trying to flee the city, most of which were just refugees and not loyal at all to Cersei or her cause.

Had she burned the shit out of the Red Keep, ordered all Lannister levies/officers to be executed and shown zero mercy to anybody loyal to the Queen, that would have made sense.

She went full deliberate, unnecessary mass murder of civilians awfully quickly. Her character has always had that desire to destroy her enemies, but not to destroy the innocent.
 
SquishyMcSquish said:
She was going to set alight to the Red Keep previously, which again made sense and was a justifiable desire.

At no point has she been talked out of deliberately torching civilians trying to flee the city, most of which were just refugees and not loyal at all to Cersei or her cause.

Had she burned the shit out of the Red Keep, ordered all Lannister levies/officers to be executed and shown zero mercy to anybody loyal to the Queen, that would have made sense.

She went full deliberate, unnecessary mass murder of civilians awfully quickly. Her character has always had that desire to destroy her enemies, but not to destroy the innocent.
Click to expand...

Those that would love Jon Snow would be her enemies...
 
2mufc0 said:
Can’t see any way back from that, the show will be a complete joke if she has a sudden change of heart.

Unfortunately they are building it up for Arya to take her out.
Click to expand...

They're certainly setting it up to be Arya but I doubt it will actually be her.

My guess:

Jon kills her and dies in the process. I'd be very confident he doesn't make it out of next week's episode alive and if he is going to die then it would nearly have to involve killing Dany.
 
SquishyMcSquish said:
She was going to set alight to the Red Keep previously, which again made sense and was a justifiable desire.

At no point has she been talked out of deliberately torching civilians trying to flee the city, most of which were just refugees and not loyal at all to Cersei or her cause.

Had she burned the shit out of the Red Keep, ordered all Lannister levies/officers to be executed and shown zero mercy to anybody loyal to the Queen, that would have made sense.

She went full deliberate, unnecessary mass murder of civilians awfully quickly. Her character has always had that desire to destroy her enemies, but not to destroy the innocent.
Click to expand...
I'll concede as this'll go nowhere, however:
Moral integrity is not absolute especially in megalomaniacs, who are spiritually crushed, in the middle of a war.
Indeed the absence of moral absolutism, the monsters lying in the heart of most people and the unfairness of life are huge themes in GOT.
I honestly don't get this issue with this.
Cersei not killing everyone at the gates last week is harder to explain given she thought she could take the dragon.
 
Even Daenerys' dad who was blatantly 'mad' - if we're going to use said term - is implied to have gone from cruelty to utter insanity fairly gradually, from hearing voices and distrusting everyone to burning people at the stake and then finally demanding the destruction of the whole city.
 
Last edited:
SquishyMcSquish said:
So, do we think we'll see any regret from Daenerys next episode? Or just full on Mad Queen stony expressions as she declares it's what they deserved etc etc.

What about from Greyworm? Will he see the charred remains of mothers holding their children and show any regret?

Or are they just going to be full on baddies with no humanity remaining.
Click to expand...
Fair question and if I'm being honest, I have no idea...
 
Cheesy said:
Even Daenerys' dad who was blatantly 'mad' - if we're going to use said term - is implied to have gone from cruelty to utter insanity fairly gradual, from hearing voices and distrusting everyone to burning people at the stake and then finally demanding the destruction of the whole city.
Click to expand...
Exactly. This was basically character assassination.

Jaime & Cersei's underwhelming ending still annoys me more though.
 
Fingeredmouse said:
I'll concede as this'll go nowhere, however:
Moral integrity is not absolute especially in megalomaniacs, who are spiritually crushed, in the middle of a war.
Indeed the absence of moral absolutism, the monsters lying in the heart of most people and the unfairness of life are huge themes in GOT.
I honestly don't get this issue with this.
Cersei not killing everyone at the gates last week is harder to explain given she thought she could take the dragon.
Click to expand...


Aye, fair enough. I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree, I thought it was a rushed shift whereas some have no issue with it.

It's definitely not the most illogical stretch of the season though, I'll certainly give you that. Plenty of characters have done things which have gone against their previously established nature.
 
2mufc0 said:
Can’t see any way back from that, the show will be a complete joke if she has a sudden change of heart.

Unfortunately they are building it up for Arya to take her out.
Click to expand...

I don't think she'll come back from it, but would expect to see at least a little regret and recognition of what she's done.
 
Last edited:
SquishyMcSquish said:
She was going to set alight to the Red Keep previously, which again made sense and was a justifiable desire.

At no point has she been talked out of deliberately torching civilians trying to flee the city, most of which were just refugees and not loyal at all to Cersei or her cause.

Had she burned the shit out of the Red Keep, ordered all Lannister levies/officers to be executed and shown zero mercy to anybody loyal to the Queen, that would have made sense.

She went full deliberate, unnecessary mass murder of civilians awfully quickly. Her character has always had that desire to destroy her enemies, but not to destroy the innocent.
Click to expand...

Yh I think they must have run out of time or something because originally (episode 4 I think) we see Cersei gathering peasants into the Red Keep essentially as a human shield against Drogon. They had the scene explaining it and it was perfectly tee'd up for the bells sounding, Fighting stops Dany then going off to kill Cersei only to find there is a huge throng of people around the Red Keep. Then she is faced with the decision to back off or to burn them all and chooses the latter.

As it is, she wins the battle and then for no reason whatsoever decimates the entire innocent population for ages before remembering she actually hates Cersei and going for the Red Keep.
 
Fully Fledged said:
That was a deliberate act by the writers. It was showing that she didn't burn the city to win the battle. That the battle was over before she went on and burnt the city. It was showing that there was no justification for what she did.

I also believe that the two main arcs of the show the WW and the GoT was done to prove that you don't need to manufacture evil humans are capable of far more evil than any big bad you can come up with.
Click to expand...

Pretty much. It's another "Oh look how bad we, as humans, truly are!" narrative from an apparent woke person.

One that rambles on about food and sex as if he's had way too much of one to cover not having anywhere near enough of the other.
 
Cheesy said:
Even Daenerys' dad who was blatantly 'mad' - if we're going to use said term - is implied to have gone from cruelty to utter insanity fairly gradually, from hearing voices and distrusting everyone to burning people at the stake and then finally demanding the destruction of the whole city.
Click to expand...

When the bells rung though.

He went bat-shit when they rung and made him realise he needed to burn everything. Symmetry.
 
tomaldinho1 said:
As it is, she wins the battle and then for no reason whatsoever decimates the entire innocent population for ages before remembering she actually hates Cersei and going for the Red Keep.
Click to expand...


This was really weird.

Like ok let's just accept she's gone full Mad Queen. Her real enemy is still in the Red Keep .. why is she stopping to massacre some civilians her soldiers can already deal with? Surely she's bursting to destroy Cersei before she can have any chance to escape?

But nope, little detour to serve up some crispy peasants first .. multiple times. Then she finally ends up at the Red Keep.
 
I18JOMZ.jpg
 
Klopper76 said:
Exactly. This was basically character assassination.

Jaime & Cersei's underwhelming ending still annoys me more though.
Click to expand...

Yep. The Dragon Queen heel turn I can buy for the drama/excuse to have horrific scene where city gets burned down angle.

Jaime and Cersei were built up for 8 seasons just to be crushed by some rubble. This also made Euron a completely pointless character. The pregnancy angle was next to meaningless. Every scene with Bron in it this season was completely pointless. I get you can't the up all loose ends but still.

In general the show has lost the genius where every character was complex and behaved and developed in a way that made sense to the character and their story. Now it's more like WWE or Eastenders where they almost seem to be winging it as the episode goes on
 
noodlehair said:
Yep. The Dragon Queen heel turn I can buy for the drama/excuse to have horrific scene where city gets burned down angle.

Jaime and Cersei were built up for 8 seasons just to be crushed by some rubble. This also made Euron a completely pointless character. The pregnancy angle was next to meaningless. Every scene with Bron in it this season was completely pointless. I get you can't the up all loose ends but still.

In general the show has lost the genius where every character was complex and behaved and developed in a way that made sense to the character and their story. Now it's more like WWE or Eastenders where they almost seem to be winging it as the episode goes on
Click to expand...

Worst character in any top tv show ever?

Seriously, I can't think of anybody else. Served zero purpose whatsoever, had no depth to his character and was horribly overacted. Just a massive, pointless caricature.

Him being Jaime Lannister's last fight was so hugely disappointing. Like, are we as an audience meant to cheer when he beats generic pirate villain? Nobody cared at all.
 
SquishyMcSquish said:
Worst character in any top tv show ever?

Seriously, I can't think of anybody else. Served zero purpose whatsoever, had no depth to his character and was horribly overacted. Just a massive, pointless caricature.

Him being Jaime Lannister's last fight was so hugely disappointing. Like, are we as an audience meant to cheer when he beats generic pirate villain? Nobody cared at all.
Click to expand...

Tied with these:

sand-snakes-lead.png
 
I forgot they abandoned the Cersei pregnancy thing :lol:

And yes, Euron was such a ridiculous character right up until the end. I'd love a single person to ask the same old "well explain to me how it's bad writing!" question again.

I think it's about time we all agree, these tv screenwriters really aren't the best. Not amateurs, but just not all that great.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.