Television Game of Thrones (TV) • The watch has ended

Agreed. But they did have dialogue during it, so do you not think 4 words from Jon would have made it clear and made it better? It's the opposite of the Arya scene for me, the visuals were perfecr we just needed a tiny hint that was what was going down. Of course, that's assuming it wasn't planned!

I guess the good thing there would be the only complaint we could have then is what the feck the Dothraki were doing at the front in the first place ;)
Yes it would have been. I just don't think it's as big a deal as being made out.

I'm guessing they didn't think the original plan for the Dothraki was important enough to explain. It could have been an initial show of strength, they could've peeled off with the Unsullied stepping forwards and taking the brunt of the initial charge, and then acted in a way more befitting to the unit type, they could've charged and feigned retreat to bring the undead on with more eagerness than the NK and the WW's initially planned. They were very vague on the details of the battle as a whole and kind of counted on the audience to fill in the gaps, which is a perfectly acceptable thing to do when the details of it don't really matter. Unfortunately for them the audience filled in the gaps in all the wrong ways. :lol:
 
Yes it would have been. I just don't think it's as big a deal as being made out.

I'm guessing they didn't think the original plan for the Dothraki was important enough to explain. It could have been an initial show of strength, they could've peeled off with the Unsullied stepping forwards and taking the brunt of the initial charge, and then acted in a way more befitting to the unit type, they could've charged and feigned retreat to bring the undead on with more eagerness than the NK and the WW's initially planned etc. They were very vague on the details of the battle as a whole.

I agree, but I also think if it was better written then it wouldn't be a big deal to some. In fact, do we even know it wasn't planned? We are only guessing, in which case it could have been option B: complete stupidity.

Either way, that's the crux of the writing issues. They have trouble translating their ideas (or kore likely deliberately go the tv route), which is why it's fair to suggest without a stricter guideline and decriptive words written for them, that side has gone down hill. Though to counter that, as others have said before, some scenes have been the opposite. For example Jaime vs Ned is far better in the show and tells a better story for me.
 
I agree, but I also think if it was better written then it wouldn't be a big deal to some. In fact, do we even know it wasn't planned? We are only guessing, in which case it could have been option B: complete stupidity.

Either way, that's the crux of the writing issues. They have trouble translating their ideas (or kore likely deliberately go the tv route), which is why it's fair to suggest without a stricter guideline and decriptive words written for them, that side has gone down hill. Though to counter that, as others have said before, some scenes have been the opposite. For example Jaime vs Ned is far better in the show and tells a better story for me.
The issues the writers are having are probably the same ones Martin is encountering, which is why he’s only released on book in the series in the last 14 years. There’s far too many unanswered questions at this point, far too many incomplete character arcs to finish up before the end of the show. That said they could’ve done a better job with it.

The nucleus of the show has always been the political manoeuvrings and the intrigue and characters interactions that has come off the back of it, but we all have known all along there was going to be a big arse battle at the end of it all. That side of it was invariably going to suffer at the end. But again, if doesn’t mean they couldn’t have done a better job of it.
 
The issues the writers are having are probably the same ones Martin is encountering, which is why he’s only released on book in the series in the last 14 years. There’s far too many unanswered questions at this point, far too many incomplete character arcs to finish up before the end of the show. That said they could’ve done a better job with it.

The nucleus of the show has always been the political manoeuvrings and the intrigue and characters interactions that has come off the back of it, but we all have known all along there was going to be a big arse battle at the end of it all. That side of it was invariably going to suffer at the end. But again, if doesn’t mean they couldn’t have done a better job of it.

Totally agreed. I think if people weren't so addicted to arguing most of us would be in agreement on that overall point.

But then that would probably be even more boring than endless walls of text going around in circles ;)
 
Idea: if it's late at night and you're not certain whether or not it's a shit or a fart, don't take the risk and instead walk to the toilet.
 
Rob before he got punted again he PM'd me responding to a post I made earlier.

It was too good to leave in the PM so here it is. Mods if this isn't on then let me know and I'll replace it with a picture of a cat or something.
I personally wouldn't use the expression "Started going wrong" because I still love the show and find it to be hugely rewarding and entertaining television. Frankly, I was irritated that they had to skim over the battles in the earliest days of the show and I'm delighted that they can now achieve these gigantic technical masterpieces that push back the boundaries of what television is capable of. And I think they've become a lot better at fleshing this world out as the show has grown. There were points in the early seasons where you could tell they'd just rocked up at a country park, or a location you could have just stumbled across yourself. It really took you out of the world whenever that happened.

Observe:
With that being said, there was a slight drop in quality after season 4 ended. I should stress that I do believe that drop was only ever so slight, as opposed to the catastrophic collapse that some viewers (and especially some book readers) would have you believe, but it was there all the same. It's something that writers behind the show even acknowledge themselves - Bryan Cogman stated pretty clearly in a recent interview that he believes the show to have two distinct eras: seasons 1-4 were the "adaptation era", and seasons 5-8 are were the "TV show era".

The "adaptation era" took the model of storytelling that's present in the books and put it to screen. A series of dominoes were slowly placed in a line before they toppled over and inevitably caught out anybody who didn't see them coming. The "TV show era" changed things slightly, using the more traditional 'set-up and payoff' mode of storytelling. Neither method is better or worse than the other (I think seasons 5 & 6 - and 8 so far - stand up to the quality of the "adaptation era"), but any perceived change in storytelling style after four seasons is going to rub people up the wrong way.

Things definitely took a noticeable downturn for season 7, though. Again, not catastrophically. Hell, it didn't even drop to simply being a "good show" - it was still a great one. The main reason for this was that plot efficiency took precedent as the show gave itself less time to piece things together for the final leg. It meant that time we would have usually spent building character without moving the plot forward too much was sacrificed, and the show instead focused on the finish line. Again, that's not objectively bad storytelling (season 7 was still powerful, entertaining TV), but it changed the rules that the show had established for itself.

Frankly, I'm really enjoying season 8 so far because it's returned to the style we saw in seasons 5 & 6 in terms of pacing and budget (especially with episodes like 'A Knight of the Seven Kingdoms'), while containing flashes of the "adaptation era" in the bold decisions it's made. The dominoes collapsed on Jon during 'The Long Night', so it was Arya who stole his moment and killed the Night King. That's the kind of unpredictable but inevitable twist the show used to be famous for. Because of the way the show is written now, the clues to the end have already been given to us, which makes it harder for them to pull off intrigue, but it'll still be a fun ride all the same.

TV shows never stay the same. They're pieces of art in constant flux. Game of Thrones has survived some production changes that would have killed other shows dead. Running out of books to use having relied on them so much initially, then having to condense such a ginormous story and mould it into a logical end-point. I mean, just look at what happened to The Walking Dead after season 4/5. That could have been Game of Thrones but it wasn't - Benioff and Weiss deserve huge credit for that.

If anyone cares he was responding this my post, which was;
Where does everyone think it started going wrong? For me it was the last episode of Season 6 - even though it's one of my favourites. Jon becomes King in the North and Cersei flips the chess board over. Dany is finally on her way to Westeros, but she's too overpowered. She has Dorne, The Reach and the Iron Fleet on her side as well as her own ships, the Dothraki and the Unsullied.

The question is; why do all of these alliances need to come so quickly, why does Cersei feck herself so quickly and why does Jon get so much authority? They were all cinematic as feck, granted, but they backed the writers into a corner for Season 7 in the same way that they did with The Long Night. With Dany's story you now have one army (Cersei/Winterfell) against an overwhelming force (Dany/Army of the Dead). At that point anything you try to do to tip the balance of power is going to seem contrived - much like the sudden change in weather and Ramsay's 20 Good Men in Season 5 that takes Stannis' massive army and turns it on his head.

It also meant that one of the best things about Game of Thrones - the political maneuvering - was absent from Season 7 even though that would have been way more interesting than the simple Dany's Army versus Cersei's Army that we got and it would have also meant we wouldn't have had enough time for that dire Beyond the Wall episode (which also served no purpose. You don't need to write a reason how the Night King gets through the wall. Just use the mark Bran received as the "breaking of the magic" of the wall).

But anyway, back on track. I have a baby at my feet so apologies if all this seems disjointed. Right, feck, back on track... You could have the alliances fractured at the start of the season with Dorne being independent, the Reach with a weak agreement with Cersei (with Lady Olenna investigating what happened at the Sept, granted it's a tricky one but Cersei could argue that her own Uncle was killed in the blast as well. Tommen would need to still be alive, at least to start...). The Greyjoys could be putting out feelers trying to figure out where they fit and who they might ally with. One by one Cersei starts to lose her allies as the Season focuses on various power moves and skirmishes between Dany and Cersei. Jon can still do what he does, trying to earn everyone about the Night King, only for it to fall on deaf ears until he finally persuades Dany, if only slightly.

As the war approaches it looks like Dany will take King's Landing and - then SURPRISE!!! - we warned you it would happen and now it's gonna happen. Winter descends on Westeros, and I'm not just talking about it being jumper and hat weather.

Season 8 now becomes about Dany's struggle between desire and duty. For Jon it's about where he fits in a world where his lineage poses a massive problem for not just his Queen but also his brothers in the North. For Cersei she now has a chance to try and reclaim some land and power during all of the chaos, feeding off scraps and having to admit that she might not be as strong as she thought she was.

I'm not saying that it's perfect, but don't forget that all go this, and I'll say it again, means that we never have to see Jon go "hurr durr I'll go get you a zombie teeheehee".
 
I’m sure they’ll scrap the 3 episodes they already have cause they were shot last year and spend a few hundred millions remaking them just to get back at the internet moaners. Why didn’t I think of that?
Come on, you should know better. I was referring to the back episodes where characters were teleporting from other side of Westeros to the other in a few days and Euron building a thousand ships in a few weeks.
 
I’m not convinced that the writers of the show would do this but...every time the NK has touched something living in the show that person or thing has changed some how. Craster’s baby is turned with a touch to the head, Bran is marked by the NK with a touch to the arm, and Viserion is turned by the NK by touching his head.

The NK touches Arya when he grabs her round the neck. What if he started turning her into a White Walker but can’t finish the process, so it’s slowly going to take place over the next episode(s). She then goes north to continue the WW race, but Jon has to kill her.
 
One of the most surprising things is that the Jamie Lannister actor is a massive Leeds supporter.

He starts talking about it around the 5:15 mark. This is from a couple of weeks ago.
 
Hate that I had this episode spoiled for me 40 minutes before I watched it by some cnut ribbing his mate on a post about a Vauxhall Corsa, his mate then replied with a list of spoilers on the entire episode and of course Facebook being Facebook you can see the entire thing just scrolling past it.

Completely took any tension out of the episode for me, so now I’m just a little underwhelmed that that was it.
 
Here's a question, if the Lord of Light is ultimately on the humans' side, and the dead (snow/beric) can be raised with very little cost (if any at all) and fire can be conjured out of thin air...plus he can give visions of the future to boot...

What was the sacrifice of Shireen all about to lift a little snow? Was that just D&D making a shock moment for themselves?
 
Here's a question, if the Lord of Light is ultimately on the humans' side, and the dead (snow/beric) can be raised with very little cost (if any at all) and fire can be conjured out of thin air...plus he can give visions of the future to boot...

What was the sacrifice of Shireen all about to lift a little snow? Was that just D&D making a shock moment for themselves?

Pretty much. Stannis was desperate for power and Melisandre convinced him that sacrificing Shireen was their best bet to get through the snow.

Maybe Melisandre knew Stannis was still gonna lose the war, but it was better than letting a whole army die in the snow only to be converted by the white walkers.

Melisandre was playing the long term game in my opinion.
 
Pretty much. Stannis was desperate for power and Melisandre convinced him that sacrificing Shireen was their best bet to get through the snow.

Maybe Melisandre knew Stannis was still gonna lose the war, but it was better than letting a whole army die in the snow only to be converted by the white walkers.

Melisandre was playing the long term game in my opinion.

Yep, I know her motivation, but what was the LoL's? Why did he need such a big sacrifice for such a small thing compared to the other much more important freebies?

I guess the answer is the writers wanted a big shock early on, but I just hoped there was an actual good one.
 
Here's a question, if the Lord of Light is ultimately on the humans' side, and the dead (snow/beric) can be raised with very little cost (if any at all) and fire can be conjured out of thin air...plus he can give visions of the future to boot...

What was the sacrifice of Shireen all about to lift a little snow? Was that just D&D making a shock moment for themselves?

The Lord of Light was a load of shite ultimately. If he really gave a shit you'd think he'd send more than 3 people to help defeat the dead. Perhaps he knew all along the White Walkers were a bunch of useless turds.
 
Several storylines that didn't make sense. Lord of light, those masked muppets and not to mention the sand cnuts.
 
One of the most surprising things is that the Jamie Lannister actor is a massive Leeds supporter.

He starts talking about it around the 5:15 mark. This is from a couple of weeks ago.

Jon and Sam are United fans...

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After a few days and some thoughts, I came to the conclusion that they couldn't have fecked it up any more if they tried. Huge fecking let down this episode 3 was. I'll spoil myself the last 3 episodes
 
Biggest shock of the season was finding out his name is Jaime and not Jamie. 8 seasons derp. How does that even exist.
Catelyn, Cersei, Kevan, Jon, Daenerys... names are George's playground. ^^
Another fun game is reading GRRM's Fire and Blood and trying to keep track of the countless Aegons.
 
Found this video quite good. Definitely a better strategy than what happened in the show.

 
I still want to know how Bran has changed any of the storyline at all. His entire character could never have existed and the story go exactly the same.

Unless he still has something major to end on, it's got to be one of the most pointless story arcs ever :lol:
 
I really hope they nail these last few episodes, but quite frankly i have no faith in these writers.

The thing is for me, is that episode 3 actually felt like the end of the show. The way it was built up, the episodes that came before it, the “promise” of our main protagonists departing for good - it all had a finality to it. But now there’s three episodes left and they have to recalibrate now and “go again”, as it were.

I guess that’s ultimately my problem with it. It’s almost as if the two battles (one for the throne and one against the dead) were the wrong way around. The one for the throne should’ve come first before the existential threat to humanity showed up. Very strange.