To make that believable, Jon and Dany from their vantage point should have commented on it. They didn't look surprised at all by the charge. (Not even at the flaming swords, which they couldn't have planned for, as Melisandre waltzes in literally moments before the attack).
Television Game of Thrones (TV) • The watch has ended
- Thread starter ha_rooney
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No worse than a direct insult of "book wankers" to anyone who doesn't agree with you on here.
I agreed with many of your sentiments if I'm honest, I just find this particular issue a ridiculous stretch and when I say get fecked its not even directed at you, cause you didn't create this narrative the show writers did so its more so directed at them.
On a side note and something constantly getting mocked at about EP 3 is the fact that Team Alive didn't build enough trenches / traps etc around Winterfell to stop the dead.
I believe time was a huge issue, by the time Jon / Dany arrived they were short for time and this was pointed out a in the opening 2 episodes. I mean Tormund and Beric said at the end of EP2 that if they traveled non stop they might make it ahead of the NK to Winterfell and when they arrived Jon asked how far away are they and he replied they'd be attacked by the morning at the latest.
I appreciate its a large army but they had to build a huge trench right around the whole of winterfell, put in pikes and create catapults and no doubt many other things like hunting, training of people they needed to fight to make up numbers, scouting and god knows what else.
I believe time was a huge issue, by the time Jon / Dany arrived they were short for time and this was pointed out a in the opening 2 episodes. I mean Tormund and Beric said at the end of EP2 that if they traveled non stop they might make it ahead of the NK to Winterfell and when they arrived Jon asked how far away are they and he replied they'd be attacked by the morning at the latest.
I appreciate its a large army but they had to build a huge trench right around the whole of winterfell, put in pikes and create catapults and no doubt many other things like hunting, training of people they needed to fight to make up numbers, scouting and god knows what else.
They don’t have to comment on it at all. What we saw was the Dothraki commander a good 5 seconds behind the front line. What does that tell you?
Why couldn’t they have planned for it?
Thing is, none of know the plans, there’s so many things that could well have been planned for but didn’t happen, and if the main body of your army decides to ride heedless into battle, which is something the Dothraki are likely to do, then whatever follows is largely unplanned.
Where did she stab him? Why was that a significant area?
Irrespective of that, are you suggesting that's a nonsensical list of weaknesses for the fictional ice zombie king to have?
@Keefy18
Dany is likely to be immune to dragonfire. Would you expect her to not die from being stabbed by dragon glass?
Dany is likely to be immune to dragonfire. Would you expect her to not die from being stabbed by dragon glass?
If targaryans can't die by fire, how did dany brother die at the start? Did I miss something?
To be fair, Jon himself charged solo in the BotB.
I agree it was shit writing and clearly to cull the amount of forces, and look pretty for the dribbling masses, but it's not exactly against the Dothraki way or off script for them.
The dumbest part of it, was them not thinking to light the battle field in any way, or dig a wider moat (I mean, come on, one zombie wide?).
I agree it was shit writing and clearly to cull the amount of forces, and look pretty for the dribbling masses, but it's not exactly against the Dothraki way or off script for them.
The dumbest part of it, was them not thinking to light the battle field in any way, or dig a wider moat (I mean, come on, one zombie wide?).
In fairness, it is pretty different. The only things established as being able to kill WWs were dragonglass and valyrian steel, two things that seemingly only have being forged from dragon fire in common. It was at the very least damn unlucky for the good guys that dragon fire didn't work too. Probably the only logical part of their whole plan.
I've been a big GOT fan ever since the release of the 5th season. Before that, I really didn't understand any of the work. Too artsy, too intellectual. It was season 5 where, uh, D&Ds presence became more apparent. I think the Dorne storyline was the shows undisputed masterpiece. It's an epic meditation on intangibility. At the same time, it deepens and enriches the meaning of the preceding four seasons. Christy, take off your robe. Listen to the brilliant dialogue in these scenes. You can practically hear every nuance of every character. Sabrina, remove your dress. In terms of craftsmanship, the sheer script writing, this season hits a new peak of professionalism. Sabrina, why don't you, uh, dance a little. Take the bad pussy line. In this moment, D&D addresses the problems of abusive political authority. Are You Old Enough To Drink is the most moving lines of the show, about monogamy and commitment. The words are extremely uplifting. The dialogue is as positive and affirmative as, uh, anything I've seen on screen. Christy, get down on your knees so Sabrina can see your ass. D&Ds work seems to be more commercial and therefore more satisfying, in a narrower way. Especially when they add surprises for the sake of surprising us and, uh, teleportation. Sabrina, don't just stare at it, eat it. But I also think D&D work best together, rather than as solo artists, and I stress the word artists. That's Ed Sheeran, a great, great songwriter, a personal favorite.
Correct me if i remember it wrong, but wasn't it Jorah Mormont leading them? (Rest of answer depends on that point, so i'm waiting for confirmation)They don’t have to comment on it at all. What we saw was the Dothraki commander a good 5 seconds behind the front line. What does that tell you?
Why couldn’t they have planned for it?
Thing is, none of know the plans, there’s so many things that could well have been planned for but didn’t happen, and if the main body of your army decides to ride heedless into battle, which is something the Dothraki are likely to do, then whatever follows is largely unplanned.
And they couldn't have planned flaming swords because Melisandre was not part of any planning, she arrives moments before battle, when everybody is already in position.
Also, in these scenes, everything is very orderly and calm, even the dothraki host. When they start moving, nobody tries to command them back. Everything points at this being the battle plan.
We don't know specifically why these things kill WWs. It's just as reasonable to believe that the flesh of the WW needs to be penetrated, and Obsidian and Valyrian steel are the only things capable of doing that.In fairness, it is pretty different. The only things established as being able to kill WWs were dragonglass and valyrian steel, two things that seemingly only have being forged from dragon fire in common. It was at the very least damn unlucky for the good guys that dragon fire didn't work too. Probably the only logical part of their whole plan.
I've watched it twice, and it still looks to me as if he wasn't quite aware they were charging that quick. He certainly wasn't leading them.
But he's the one being referred to as their commander here, right?
You'd have thought so. I'm just saying it looks like he is left a little behind, he's certainly not at the front of the charge.
It was, which is why it's particularly strange that their leader, previously positioned well in front of the Dothraki, seemingly finds himself well behind the front line, his horse not even in full gallop yet.
Fair point on Melisandre though.
I get the symbolism, I just find it a bit daft that dragon fire doesn't kill him cause his one ice cold mo'fo! I can understand stabbing him with dragon glass would do that as we knew it could do it and well, he's being stabbed.
Dany is human, the NK is a mythological character.
I expected him to be killed by the knife but it seems a bit daft that the by product of dragon fire can kill him not the product itself.
Dany is a human who controls dragons and is immune to fire. She has as much in common with the NK as she does a normal human.
I just don't think it is. It's logical you just need something strong enough to peirce them, which dragonfire alone doesn't do.
Well. Commander or not (it probably is never made clear), he is a westerosi knight and should be accustomed to different battle tactics. As one of Daenerys' inner circle i'm sure though that he would have made an effort to prevent the battle from going against the planned tactics right from the start, and he is also one of the few westeros-born fighters to be able to do so, since the dothraki have seen him at Dany's side and in battle for years.
And wasn't is supposed to be in the same spot that created him?
Again, on first viewing it looks lower, but on second it was definitely chest area.
Again, on first viewing it looks lower, but on second it was definitely chest area.
I don't disagree. However, it looked like he had little option when the charge happened, it was just monumentally stupid to have them at the front in the first place.
They say so on the behind the episode, but it's never given significance in the show itself, as the spot or the necessity to hit it is not mentioned at all.
Yeah, i've been saying that last part from the start.
This is where my criticisms or the writing comes in, they had to explain so much with a 40min feature thing, and even then not all of it was explained well or made sense. It's pretty much exactly like the whole "you shouldn't use the books to explain anything" mantra, good writing shouldn't need a long video explaining after.
I just answered the query you asked dude, I'm definitely on the side of why you'd keep the most unruly of your forces at the front, let alone them being your cavalry.
Valyrian steel is also said to be imbued with magic so it probably has that going for it too...
https://gameofthrones.fandom.com/wiki/Valyrian_steel
He was created by dragon glass, also probably imbued with magic from the Children of the Forest, so I don't think more dragon glass would've killed him. I reckon it had to be Valyrian steel or possibly Beric's magic fire sword would have done it too.
Christ I'm such a nerd.
https://gameofthrones.fandom.com/wiki/Valyrian_steel
He was created by dragon glass, also probably imbued with magic from the Children of the Forest, so I don't think more dragon glass would've killed him. I reckon it had to be Valyrian steel or possibly Beric's magic fire sword would have done it too.
Christ I'm such a nerd.
She stabbed him in the heart, where the magic pixies placed the dragon glass to create him. Thereby suggesting this was his weak spot.
I'm suggesting it is nonsensical to suggest that you have any definitive idea of what is or isn't the specific magic related weaknesses a zombie ice king might have and that it is only implausible that he is resistant to dragon fire, despite characters in show expressing doubt that he would be, if you have decided based on very little that he would be vulnerable to it.
I don't think you need to state everything on screen especially when it's been shown where he was stabbed and how he was created. They never had a Night King manual nor an exposition wise man explaining it. They were guessing based on the limited knowledge they had as were the viewers.
Again, we don't know the purpose of those light cavalry being at the front. It might well have been for an idiot charge, but by the looks of it, what happened wasn't part of the initial plan.
That's true to a degree, but then if you explain it after to be the case then it should surely have been better translated to screen in the first place?
Otherwise, why intend it to be that way.
We'll have to agree to disagree on this point, i don't see the indication the attack was planned differently.
Why would you have an idiot charge?
Let's face it, it's clear the real reason was to get rid of the Dothraki and create a visually stunning moment. Jon and Dany aitting in the hill, was to give them a reason for the epic shot of watching them charge in from above On that front, I have no problem with it as it served both purposes and did set up suspense.
It was increbily stupid, but that's one part of the show I don't really have a problem with because it served a purpose either way, and succeeded with that purpose. It was lazy writing to at least not give some justification, but on the other hand, it was great how they worked it and caused tension. For me anyway.
Only by Jorah clearly being the leader, but then seemingly taken by surprise when they charged.
But then, all it would have taken was a single line from Jon to clear it up: Jon turns to Dany "what are they doing?". That's all it would have taken.
So maybe it was planned and Jorah was just slower due to his foam armour weighing him down
The leader found himself two thirds of the way behind the front line, after previously being ahead of it. That's pretty strong evidence that it didn't go according to plan. You've chosen to fill an absence of information with something we just don't know
I'm not sure I follow you. They show and don't tell. I honestly, despite having concerns with aspects of the writing, don't think that this element is bad writing. Quite the opposite in fact. I prefer this to, for instance, Sam uncovering yet more implausibly specific and useful information in a book.
Yet there isn't any indication that this one point was the self-destruct button and on top Arya has no knowledge of it. It's another one of these bits they toss at the audience and expect it to be seen as significant.
Yep, any line of bewilderment at the charge (as i've also said above) and it's no longer the stupidity of the writing.Only by Jorah clearly being the leader, but then seemingly taken by surprise when they charged.
But then, all it would have taken was a single line from Jon to clear it up: Jon turns to Dany "what are they doing?". That's all it would have taken.
So maybe it was planned and Jorah was just slower due to his foam armour weighing him down
But the same goes for the opposite argument. The not knowing is exactly the problem with the writing.
I get you. My point is they clearly intended it to be that way right? They say so aftwards. So it should have translated to screen a bit better. It didn't necessarily have to be via dialogue, but at least a better camera angle or even a slower shot of the knife being pushed in as a call back to the earlier episode?
I don't have any problem with how it went down, let's be clear there, I just see the point that it could be argued that the writing was a bit sloppy as they didn't get the point across (pardon the pun
) as well as they could have.*Idiotic charge.
I don't think you would. I think it's pretty clear that it didn't go to plan. The Dothraki are arrogant, bloodthirsty and pretty thick; it's unfortunate that they also happen to make up the majority of forces.
I agree they should've made more of it, I also think the lack of dialogue was used as a tool to increase tension, and it worked to that effect. An changed look of concern or a gasp would've sufficed.
Writing isn't just dialogue, it's also translating things to screen so you don't have to spell out every little thing for the viewer.
In books it's done through descriptions, in the show there's also the option of visuals. The problem with D&D isn't so much they don't try to put as much in as they can, they clearly are trying their best to make things relevent, it's more they often go for show over telling the story a bit better visually.
Of course I would be shit at it, but then I'm not an acclaimed pro. The Dothraki charge needed a single line to explain, the Arya kill needed a better camera angle or as I said, a better show of the knife being pushed in referencing the earlier creation of the NK. These both, for me would have been easy changes to have thought of and made the already great episode just that bit more perfect.
In books it's done through descriptions, in the show there's also the option of visuals. The problem with D&D isn't so much they don't try to put as much in as they can, they clearly are trying their best to make things relevent, it's more they often go for show over telling the story a bit better visually.
Of course I would be shit at it, but then I'm not an acclaimed pro. The Dothraki charge needed a single line to explain, the Arya kill needed a better camera angle or as I said, a better show of the knife being pushed in referencing the earlier creation of the NK. These both, for me would have been easy changes to have thought of and made the already great episode just that bit more perfect.
Agreed. But they did have dialogue during it, so do you not think 4 words from Jon would have made it clear and made it better? It's the opposite of the Arya scene for me, the visuals were perfecr we just needed a tiny hint that was what was going down. Of course, that's assuming it wasn't planned!
I guess the good thing there would be the only complaint we could have then is what the feck the Dothraki were doing at the front in the first place
As I've said I think they should've given more reaction to the botched plan, and that could've been written better. In terms of given us details as to how they wanted it to play out; would it really be necessary? We don't need to know how they planned to the use the light cavalry, because they didn't get a chance to. There is precedent for the Dothraki to act in the manner they did; all we need to know is what happened after it. The plan fell apart, Dany entered the battle prematurely and they were caught on the back foot by the NK on his dragon.