Television Game of Thrones (TV) • The watch has ended

CassiusClaymore said:
Not only that but we had the whole Chekhov's dagger scene with Bran in the season before which itself led to a red herring with the death of Littlefinger. That was after Bran had already gone alien space bats mind.
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Yeah. Bran seems to be into foretelling now as well as showing the past and present.
 
Redlambs said:
I just don't think we should let people dictate what those words actually mean. Because in reality, they mean feck all as even the original writer was taking the piss.

Just because things evolve to a new meaning, doesn't mean we should follow those is my point.
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language has no inherent meaning, it is only made meaningful by a group of people collectively yet arbitrarily agreeing what words mean. now excuse me while i go read some james joyce
 
Pogue Mahone said:
But the whole thing is called Game of Thrones, not Winter is Coming.

The way Cersei fecked over the north and let them take massive losses, basically saving her land/people from being wiped out, gives a bit more spice to the end game. Which is all about who ends up sitting on the iron throne, as it should be.
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Isn't the whole point of the show that everyone is obsessing about trivial stuff like who is on the Iron Throne but reality there is a big menacing threat coming, parallels to climate change etc. So the book title isn't wholly the be all.

Anyway it's still a good show, just think the drama could have been created better. Waiting to see what happens till the end of the show before judging fully.
 
Pogue Mahone said:
But the whole thing is called Game of Thrones, not Winter is Coming.

The way Cersei fecked over the north and let them take massive losses, basically saving her land/people from being wiped out, gives a bit more spice to the end game. Which is all about who ends up sitting on the iron throne, as it should be.
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Agree with this and how I see things when people keep going on about the NK story should have concluded the series.
 
2mufc0 said:
Agree with this and how I see things when people keep going on about the NK story should have concluded the series.
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Don’t get me wrong, if there’s a cool background that Bran can elaborate on it might be nice to hear about it but god damn, people need answers to everything these days. Sometimes a bit of mystery being left in is fine.
 
2mufc0 said:
Agree with this and how I see things when people keep going on about the NK story should have concluded the series.
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The counter argument being that the pilot started with the white walkers, it's been a theme throughout the entire show. Most of the seasons ending with White Walkers scenes, the whole "Winter is Coming" catchphrase and "nothing matters but the great war in the north". It's been hyped up for 8 seasons and ultimately, when you look at it from a story perspective, it was simply a mechanic to reduce Daenerys' army and the Northern army to allow Cersei to have the upper hand. A few smaller characters died but nothing substantial and the Great War itself lasted all of 3 episodes and the NK didn't even get past the North of Westeros. It was a huge anti climax from what has been hyped up for 8 seasons and thats why so many are disappointed. It's certainly why i'm disappointed.

We have like 4 hours left with the worst villains left in the show (from my perspective, I love Cerseis character but she's a pretty shit end villain and angry pirate guy can just piss off).
 
RedSky said:
The counter argument being that the pilot started with the white walkers, it's been a theme throughout the entire show. Most of the seasons ending with White Walkers scenes, the whole "Winter is Coming" catchphrase and "nothing matters but the great war in the north". It's been hyped up for 8 seasons and ultimately, when you look at it from a story perspective, it was simply a mechanic to reduce Daenerys' army and the Northern army to allow Cersei to have the upper hand. A few smaller characters died but nothing substantial and the Great War itself lasted all of 3 episodes and they NK didn't even get past the North of Westeros. It was a huge anti climax from what has been hyped up for 8 seasons and thats why so many are disappointed. It's certainly why i'm disappointed.

We have like 4 hours left with the worst villains left in the show (from my perspective, I love Cerseis character but she's a pretty shit end villain and angry pirate guy can just piss off).
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Cersei is one of the big bads of the show though, right from the start. She and Jaime kill Roberts hand don’t they? Jaime tried to murder Bran to protect her. She’s responsible for Roberts death too through Lancel. I could go on...

He (Jaime) goes through a redemption arc while she continues to deepen into her crazy evil bitch form. I don’t think it’s odd at all if she’s the final boss here.
 
Minimalist said:
Cersei is one of the big bads of the show though, right from the start. She and Jaime kill Roberts hand don’t they? Jaime tried to murder Bran to protect her. She’s responsible for Roberts death too through Lancel. I could go on...

He (Jaime) goes through a redemption arc while she continues to deepen into her crazy evil bitch form. I don’t think it’s odd at all if she’s the final boss here.
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Baelish killed Jon Arryn (sp?) did he not?
 
Minimalist said:
Cersei is one of the big bads of the show though, right from the start. She and Jaime kill Roberts hand don’t they? Jaime tried to murder Bran to protect her. She’s responsible for Roberts death too through Lancel. I could go on...

He (Jaime) goes through a redemption arc while she continues to deepen into her crazy evil bitch form. I don’t think it’s odd at all if she’s the final boss here.
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Nah his wife does it for Littlefinger.

Littlefinger basically started the entire war.
 
RedSky said:
The counter argument being that the pilot started with the white walkers, it's been a theme throughout the entire show. Most of the seasons ending with White Walkers scenes, the whole "Winter is Coming" catchphrase and "nothing matters but the great war in the north". It's been hyped up for 8 seasons and ultimately, when you look at it from a story perspective, it was simply a mechanic to reduce Daenerys' army and the Northern army to allow Cersei to have the upper hand. A few smaller characters died but nothing substantial and the Great War itself lasted all of 3 episodes and the NK didn't even get past the North of Westeros. It was a huge anti climax from what has been hyped up for 8 seasons and thats why so many are disappointed. It's certainly why i'm disappointed.

We have like 4 hours left with the worst villains left in the show (from my perspective, I love Cerseis character but she's a pretty shit end villain and angry pirate guy can just piss off).
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Surely Cersei is a much better and more interesting and complex villain than a bunch of frozen blokes who've never said a single word?

One of the selling points of the show, early on, it gave everyone a back story and even the most despicable characters had a bit of a back story, which helped you understand their motivations. One of the things that made it seem original was the lack of two dimensional cartoon villains. So it's a bit weird that people are mourning the loss of the most two dimensional cartoon villain of all.

I can understand that people are surprised about the Night King being bumped off early. But bumping off key protaganists unexpectedly early has been another key feature of the series. So you can't say it's not in keeping with what we've been watching so far.
 
Pogue Mahone said:
Surely Cersei is a much better and more interesting and complex villain than a bunch of frozen blokes who've never said a single word?

One of the selling points of the show, early on, it gave everyone a back story and even the most despicable characters had a bit of a back story, which helped you understand their motivations. One of the things that made it seem original was the lack of two dimensional cartoon villains. So it's a bit weird that people are mourning the loss of the most two dimensional cartoon villain of all.

I can understand that people are surprised about the Night King being bumped off early. But bumping off key protaganists unexpectedly early has been another key feature of the series. So you can't say it's not in keeping with what we've been watching so far.
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Also there are so many character arcs they have to finish up they are going to need the 3 episodes to try and tie up as much as they can.
 
RedSky said:
The counter argument being that the pilot started with the white walkers, it's been a theme throughout the entire show. Most of the seasons ending with White Walkers scenes, the whole "Winter is Coming" catchphrase and "nothing matters but the great war in the north". It's been hyped up for 8 seasons and ultimately, when you look at it from a story perspective, it was simply a mechanic to reduce Daenerys' army and the Northern army to allow Cersei to have the upper hand. A few smaller characters died but nothing substantial and the Great War itself lasted all of 3 episodes and the NK didn't even get past the North of Westeros. It was a huge anti climax from what has been hyped up for 8 seasons and thats why so many are disappointed. It's certainly why i'm disappointed.

We have like 4 hours left with the worst villains left in the show (from my perspective, I love Cerseis character but she's a pretty shit end villain and angry pirate guy can just piss off).
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I agree. Thats also the point of magic awakening and prophecies of Azor Ahai and prince which was promised.

The great war was the ultimate battle for the worlds survival and ultimately the others were defeated in the first major battle. Imo it should have been battle for the iron throne first, then vs white walkers.
 
Minimalist said:
Cersei is one of the big bads of the show though, right from the start. She and Jaime kill Roberts hand don’t they? Jaime tried to murder Bran to protect her. I could go on...

He goes through a redemption arc while she continues to deepen into her crazy evil bitch form. I don’t think it’s odd at all if she’s the final boss here.
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I loved her character, but since all her children were killed she changed into this ruthless queen but the real issue here is that she's not actually made any errors. She was always a complex character in the first few seasons but she'd make errors, now she does everything right and outplays everyone. I dunno, I find her arc in the last few seasons a bit shite. They've made her do everything right to try and counter balance Daenerys having this huge army, so now if she does make an error in judgement it'll be completely out of character again. They've written themselves into a hole again. Likewise they've done the opposite with Tyrion, someone who studied books and would try to learn as much as possible and yet he's been a continual feck up for the past 3 seasons but no doubt he'll turn it around in the last 3 episodes.

Personally i'll route for Daenerys to lose her shit and burn everyone. That would be a great final villain.
 
The Cat said:
Also there are so many character arcs they have to finish up they are going to need the 3 episodes to try and tie up as much as they can.
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Yeah, that too.

Plus if you want a kick ass evil monster for your final battle, we've got Cersei's massive undead bodyguard and his unfinished business with the Hound.

Cersei's right, though. Pity there's no elephants.
 
Shamana said:
I agree. Thats also the point of magic awakening and prophecies of Azor Ahai and prince which was promised.

The great war was the ultimate battle for the worlds survival and ultimately the others were defeated in the first major battle. Imo it should have been battle for the iron throne first, then vs white walkers.
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If you're talking about the books, maybe.
 
Pogue Mahone said:
Surely Cersei is a much better and more interesting and complex villain than a bunch of frozen blokes who've never said a single word?

One of the selling points of the show, early on, it gave everyone a back story and even the most despicable characters had a bit of a back story, which helped you understand their motivations. One of the things that made it seem original was the lack of two dimensional cartoon villains. So it's a bit weird that people are mourning the loss of the most two dimensional cartoon villain of all.

I can understand that people are surprised about the Night King being bumped off early. But bumping off key protaganists unexpectedly early has been another key feature of the series. So you can't say it's not in keeping with what we've been watching so far.
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Think the issue is that the Night King had so much potential back story which could have made him just as complex as Cersei based on book lore but the Show producers simply never delved into it and therefore the 'fantasy' contingent feel short-changed.
 
Pogue Mahone said:
But the whole thing is called Game of Thrones, not Winter is Coming.

The way Cersei fecked over the north and let them take massive losses, basically saving her land/people from being wiped out, gives a bit more spice to the end game. Which is all about who ends up sitting on the iron throne, as it should be.
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This.
 
RedSky said:
I loved her character, but since all her children were killed she changed into this ruthless queen but the real issue here is that she's not actually made any errors. She was always a complex character in the first few seasons but she'd make errors, now she does everything right and outplays everyone. I dunno, I find her arc in the last few seasons a bit shite. They've made her do everything right to try and counter balance Daenerys having this huge army, so now if she does make an error in judgement it'll be completely out of character again. They've written themselves into a hole again. Likewise they've done the opposite with Tyrion, someone who studied books and would try to learn as much as possible and yet he's been a continual feck up for the past 3 seasons but no doubt he'll turn it around in the last 3 episodes.

Personally i'll route for Daenerys to lose her shit and burn everyone. That would be a great final villain.
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No she lost both tommen and her daugther through her crap decisions. She's literally lost everyone she cares about apart from Jaime whom she doesnt care about anymore.
 
Raees said:
Think the issue is that the Night King had so much potential back story which could have made him just as complex as Cersei based on book lore but the Show producers simply never delved into it and therefore the 'fantasy' contingent feel short-changed.
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And there we go again...

So much of this reminds me of Star Wars (no surprises it's popped up in the last few pages) Upset fans who've spent years balls deep immersed in the whole universe, complaining about a show that doesn't pan out exactly the way they wanted/expected to, based on a load of content that never made it onto the screen.
 
RedSky said:
I loved her character, but since all her children were killed she changed into this ruthless queen but the real issue here is that she's not actually made any errors. She was always a complex character in the first few seasons but she'd make errors, now she does everything right and outplays everyone. I dunno, I find her arc in the last few seasons a bit shite. They've made her do everything right to try and counter balance Daenerys having this huge army, so now if she does make an error in judgement it'll be completely out of character again. They've written themselves into a hole again. Likewise they've done the opposite with Tyrion, someone who studied books and would try to learn as much as possible and yet he's been a continual feck up for the past 3 seasons but no doubt he'll turn it around in the last 3 episodes.

Personally i'll route for Daenerys to lose her shit and burn everyone. That would be a great final villain.
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Sorry missed what you said. Dont know if she makes all the right decisions. It doesnt take a genius to do what she does.
 
Raees said:
Think the issue is that the Night King had so much potential back story which could have made him just as complex as Cersei based on book lore but the Show producers simply never delved into it and therefore the 'fantasy' contingent feel short-changed.
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But I can’t help but remember the fact he doesn’t exist in the books, nor are the others as prominent like they are in the show. It might well be the backstory isn’t revealed much more in the future books (if they ever come). And if that’s the case, it would make sense for them to remain somewhat mysterious.
 
Pogue Mahone said:
Surely Cersei is a much better and more interesting and complex villain than a bunch of frozen blokes who've never said a single word?

One of the selling points of the show, early on, it gave everyone a back story and even the most despicable characters had a bit of a back story, which helped you understand their motivations. One of the things that made it seem original was the lack of two dimensional cartoon villains. So it's a bit weird that people are mourning the loss of the most two dimensional cartoon villain of all.

I can understand that people are surprised about the Night King being bumped off early. But bumping off key protaganists unexpectedly early has been another key feature of the series. So you can't say it's not in keeping with what we've been watching so far.
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That's generally the fault of D&D though, who created everything about the Night King. The books only mention him, so everything we see in the TV Show is 100% tv writers. We've had 8 seasons and still never really knew much about the white walkers, given we had a character who could go back in time and knows everything, surely we should know a bit more? Seems to me the writers didn't really know what to do with them. He was ultimately a very, very shit character.
 
RedSky said:
That's generally the fault of D&D though, who created everything about the Night King. The books only mention him, so everything we see in the TV Show is 100% tv writers. We've had 8 seasons and still never really knew much about the white walkers, given we had a character who could go back in time and knows everything, surely we should know a bit more? Seems to me the writers didn't really know what to do with them. He was ultimately a very, very shit character.
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And yet killing him off 3 episodes into the final season is a problem for you?
 
RedSky said:
That's generally the fault of D&D though, who created everything about the Night King. The books only mention him, so everything we see in the TV Show is 100% tv writers. We've had 8 seasons and still never really knew much about the white walkers, given we had a character who could go back in time and knows everything, surely we should know a bit more? Seems to me the writers didn't really know what to do with them. He was ultimately a very, very shit character.
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I don’t know the books inside out but don’t the books refer to a different character than the Night King in the show? Isn’t it some historical figure? I thought the NK as we know him is just a face for the others they invented.
 
Raees said:
Think the issue is that the Night King had so much potential back story which could have made him just as complex as Cersei based on book lore but the Show producers simply never delved into it and therefore the 'fantasy' contingent feel short-changed.
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He's not in the books at all. I personally find the political intrigue more interesting and I'm glad that this plotline has, to my reasonable satisfaction, ended.
 
RedSky said:
The counter argument being that the pilot started with the white walkers, it's been a theme throughout the entire show. Most of the seasons ending with White Walkers scenes, the whole "Winter is Coming" catchphrase and "nothing matters but the great war in the north". It's been hyped up for 8 seasons and ultimately, when you look at it from a story perspective, it was simply a mechanic to reduce Daenerys' army and the Northern army to allow Cersei to have the upper hand. A few smaller characters died but nothing substantial and the Great War itself lasted all of 3 episodes and the NK didn't even get past the North of Westeros. It was a huge anti climax from what has been hyped up for 8 seasons and thats why so many are disappointed. It's certainly why i'm disappointed.

We have like 4 hours left with the worst villains left in the show (from my perspective, I love Cerseis character but she's a pretty shit end villain and angry pirate guy can just piss off).
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Can see that point of view, but for me the series was built on interesting characters and their interactions and the politics/drama. Plus the whole whitewalker thing is shrouded in mystery and we don't know much about the NK either, so I never felt any deep connection with that side of the story so bumping them off early to serve the wider story I'm fine with.
 
Pogue Mahone said:
If you're talking about the books, maybe.
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I guess i am since they are called a song of ice and fire. After destroying the forces of satan who really cares which ass sits on the iron throne. Dany wants it for her sense of entitlement not because she is a humanitarian who wants the best for westeros.
 
The true hero of Westeros is
The wooden bench that held the door closed for Arya, the Hound, and Melisandre. Without that thing, Night King wins.

Wooden Hodor saved the day!
 
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