Television Game of Thrones (TV) • The watch has ended

What were people expecting with jon and danys scenes? I thought they acted exactly like they normally would and it made for great watching.

Also

the foreshadowing is so good. Jon says " I'm not a stark " then the dragon flies right over him
 
Any thoughts on why jon stopped ser Davos talking about him being raised from the dead?
 
Arbitrium said:
What were people expecting with jon and danys scenes? I thought they acted exactly like they normally would and it made for great watching.

Also

the foreshadowing is so good. Jon says " I'm not a stark " then the dragon flies right over him
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Daenerys was coming across quite poorly in her demands. Very good scene though.
 
InfiniteBoredom said:
Mace Tyrell remained in Highgarden with a host of 10 thousands when Catelyn went to meet with Renly in Season 2. Even if they dispersed the host it's easy enough to raise a few thousands for a garrison in a fortnight or so. Medieval warfare 101.

Stannis with a host of 20k in Season 2 also had troubles taking Storm's End against a garrison of a few hundreds men, which he eventually had to resorted to Mel's belly demon to take. So forgive me for thinking it's not a day's work taking a well manned castle with murder holes, mangonels, boiling oil, arrows raining down on you and trebuchets.
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Unless the castle was not as strong nor as they actually stated in the show that the troops there were not actually very good.

Nor was the castle ever stated to be that tough unlike some other castles. Seems not all armies nor all castles are equal. Simple logic really.

It also is likely the some Tyrell troops were already marching towards kings landing or staging in that direction. So just like Jaime said in the episode he used a bit of misdirection to catch the enemy by surprise. Plus the defection of what might be the best part of the army. Not far fetched at all.
 
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MaxiPaxi said:
Also hate the way Bran just said oh I need to speak with Jon. Like common you'd tell her straight away that he's an heir to throne and bloody Targaryan.
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Think it's only fair that Jon knows first, to be honest. Plus, we all know how people feel about Targaryens in Westeros.
 
Thinking on it...Olenna telling Jaime how she killed Joffrey instead of Tyrion will incense Cersei even more considering her desperation to see Tyrion dead basically indirectly lead to the death of her father.
 
Liked the episode. Oleanna kicked ass until the end. Cersei once again finding ways out of trouble. Sams story line was good. Creepy Bran. Sansa showing some leadership. Dany and Jon not falling instantly in lust. Ser Davos as always great. Bye bye bad pussy. Oh hey it's Bronn!
 
Sylar said:
I dont get why people still have complaints about time gaps / skips etc. You know its going to happen for the sake of the story, so why is it always a complaint?
We already know its not going to be following real time or even logically matching what we should be expecting. What would happen in real life wont happen in this fantasy world, because, well... time.

I actually liked the Jon Snow and Dany scenes. Neither wanted to give an inch, but ultimately, Tyrion made Dany give something. I have a feeling Jon will use the glass to get evidence of a WW / Undead to show those who have never seen it before.

The Sansa/Bran stuff was good too.

Also good to see Mormont is pretty much fine now. Back to the friendzone he goes :)

loved the ending as well. A true moment of Cersei / Jamie playing the game of thrones. Give up something for the ultimate win. And a nice throwback to how Jamie was captured by Robb and essentially using the same plan.
Olenna calling Joffrey a cnut and then admitting it was her plan was great stuff.
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I wouldn't be surprised if some are upset because you don't have characters starting each scene by saying "It's been three weeks since I *describes what they did the last time we saw them*".
 
I really don't get the complaint about Highgarden. It never was a famous castle but or it's beauty, the army had marched north, and we never see how much time it actually took Jamie to take it. With the way the show is going, it could have been a week or two. No problem. And that is, to be honest, a rather normal siege. Not all of them lastet years.
 
fcbforever said:
I really don't get the complaint about Highgarden. It never was a famous castle but or it's beauty, the army had marched north, and we never see how much time it actually took Jamie to take it. With the way the show is going, it could have been a week or two. No problem. And that is, to be honest, a rather normal siege. Not all of them lastet years.
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Indeed. A few seconds of thought and you can logic most of it out.

We have already seen in the show how easy it is to take a poorly defended castle with just a few men. So a poorly defended castle attacked by a large, well led army could fall with relative easy.
 
fcbforever said:
I really don't get the complaint about Highgarden. It never was a famous castle but or it's beauty, the army had marched north, and we never see how much time it actually took Jamie to take it. With the way the show is going, it could have been a week or two. No problem. And that is, to be honest, a rather normal siege. Not all of them lastet years.
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It's the biggest weakness for the short season. Before when characters traveled places you might see them wearing different clothes or using cryptic language in previous scene - something to at least give you a hint so that an episode later you might see the relation. With 180 minutes less to finish the story arc this year some sacrifices surely have had to be made.
 
dumbo said:
Don't worry it's just a limp joke at the expense of some of the writing, with a deliberately bodged spoiler. I haven't read the books.
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:lol:

I've had plenty of GoT things spoiled to me so just wanted to be careful.
 
fcbforever said:
I really don't get the complaint about Highgarden. It never was a famous castle but or it's beauty, the army had marched north, and we never see how much time it actually took Jamie to take it. With the way the show is going, it could have been a week or two. No problem. And that is, to be honest, a rather normal siege. Not all of them lastet years.
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The ragtag band of green boys and old men Stannis left to man Dragonstone cost Loras Tyrell a thousand men taking the wall and another thousand to storm the castle, Loras himself suffered grievous wounds.

A well manned, well provisioned castle can withstand a siege for years. Even a forthnight is enough to get Dany there with her dragons. If you think the seat of the House Gardener, King of the Reach for thousands of years is not a great castle, sure.
 
The taking of Highgarden did seem a bit suspect...I can imagine the castle being under-provisioned or undermanned considering Olenna's focus has pretty much purely been on revenge as opposed to tactics etc, but the fact that it seems like all of the Reach lords have supported the Lannisters in spite of the fact Daenerys has three dragons and (did) have the advantage seems a bit of a stretch.
 
Arbitrium said:
Any thoughts on why jon stopped ser Davos talking about him being raised from the dead?
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He was having a hard time convincing her about the Night King and White Walkers. If they started talking about him coming back from the dead, she might have thought they were completely mad.

Plus I'd say Jon doesn't like reliving it. Feck Olly.
 
JustAFan said:
Indeed. A few seconds of thought and you can logic most of it out.

We have already seen in the show how easy it is to take a poorly defended castle with just a few men. So a poorly defended castle attacked by a large, well led army could fall with relative easy.
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I feel like it's a severe case of people accepting things when GRRM writes it, but not when D&D did. We have (in the books) seen Deepwood Motte fall in a few hours when attacked by surprise by Stannis. If not for the surprise attack by Tywin Lannister, King's Landing would have fallen in one night, despite preperations. Theon Greyjoy took Winterfell with 30 men. So that's alright, but this isn't?
 
Cheesy said:
The taking of Highgarden did seem a bit suspect...I can imagine the castle being under-provisioned or undermanned considering Olenna's focus has pretty much purely been on revenge as opposed to tactics etc, but the fact that it seems like all of the Reach lords have supported the Lannisters in spite of the fact Daenerys has three dragons and (did) have the advantage seems a bit of a stretch.
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TBH I'm just not feeling it so far this season. Even Jaime's plan was a little too easy. Sure, it wasn't how I thought everything was going to go (taking CR's retinue to Highgarden and leaving the Unsullied stuck without supplies) but once it happened I found myself saying "Yeah... that actually makes sense". GoT is best when you find yourself saying "I would have never thought of that". It used to defy expectations and now it's becoming rather one dimensional.

I'd still argue that it's the best thing on TV right now though.
 
Mr Pigeon said:
TBH I'm just not feeling it so far this season. Even Jaime's plan was a little too easy. Sure, it wasn't how I thought everything was going to go (taking CR's retinue to Highgarden and leaving the Unsullied stuck without supplies) but once it happened I found myself saying "Yeah... that actually makes sense". GoT is best when you find yourself saying "I would have never thought of that". It used to defy expectations and now it's becoming rather one dimensional.

I'd still argue that it's the best thing on TV right now though.
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I don't really have any problems with characters moving fairly quickly, but I think part of the problem is the sudden change in pace in that regard that's happened over the past couple of seasons; back when Jaime had his whole getting his hand chopped off arc it took him about an entire season to get back to KL. Now he's able to travel across the country into enemy territory unchallenged all in the one episode. The Reach is supposed to be a big area...so was there no opposition to siding with the weaker force that doesn't have dragons? None at all?

Like you I still think it's great entertainment, and for my money that episode there was the best this season so far with a definite upturn in the writing compared to the last two, but things do feel a tad easy at times.
 
InfiniteBoredom said:
The ragtag band of green boys and old men Stannis left to man Dragonstone cost Loras Tyrell a thousand men taking the wall and another thousand to storm the castle, Loras himself suffered grievous wounds.

A well manned, well provisioned castle can withstand a siege for years. Even a forthnight is enough to get Dany there with her dragons. If you think the seat of the House Gardener, King of the Reach for thousands of years is not a great castle, sure.
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Dragonstone is a well renowned defensive stronghold, nothing such has been said about Highgarden. In fact, since I remember that you like history, it's not unreasonable to think that a house like the Tyrells, which hasn't faced any serious threat since becoming warden of the south, would not invest as much in the defensive parts of it's seat as other houses. From descriptions, we know of leisure labyrinths between it's walls and such. In fact, it would seem logical as at the end of the high middle ages (which likely accurately descibes the period we are in here, e.g. 15th century) the great families had mostly given up their castles for residences serving adiministrational and representational purposes.
 
fcbforever said:
I feel like it's a severe case of people accepting things when GRRM writes it, but not when D&D did. We have (in the books) seen Deepwood Motte fall in a few hours when attacked by surprise by Stannis. If not for the surprise attack by Tywin Lannister, King's Landing would have fallen in one night, despite preperations. Theon Greyjoy took Winterfell with 30 men. So that's alright, but this isn't?
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Deepwood Motte is wooden castle with earthen pallisades.

King's Landing was undermanned, and had no food, since the Tyrells blocked the rose road. Tyrion said that the city would fall soon enough, because the majority of gold cloaks recruits are unseasoned, has no discipline and prone to go over if the fighting goes against them, but they could still hold Maegor's Holdfast for a time. It certainly wasn't the case of a night's work.

Winterfell was taken by ruse. Which is about similar to the way CR was taken. Seems a bit contrived, but the men who hatched the plan spent their entire lives there, which lends it a degree of credibility.

A host of thousands of men cannot move unseen, especially with siege weapons. If they don't have any, they would have to build them, which can take days. Any half competent person would scour the area surrounding the castle clean, get as much provisions as possible and man the castle with anti-seige weaponry. Of course, all of this is boring and wouldnt translate well to television, doesn't make it any less true. Brynden Tully did just as much once he heard of the Red Wedding.

fcbforever said:
Dragonstone is a well renowned defensive stronghold, nothing such has been said about Highgarden. In fact, since I remember that you like history, it's not unreasonable to think that a house like the Tyrells, which hasn't faced any serious threat since becoming warden of the south, would not invest as much in the defensive parts of it's seat as other houses. From descriptions, we know of leisure labyrinths between it's walls and such. In fact, it would seem logical as at the end of the high middle ages (which likely accurately descibes the period we are in here, e.g. 15th century) the great families had mostly given up their castles for residences serving adiministrational and representational purposes.
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Highgarden wasnt built in a day. It was the seat of House Gardener for thousands of years before the Conquest. It'd be a massive leap of faith to believe that the castle of a great house wouldnt be in the same league as Winterfell, Storm's End, the Eyerie.
 
Dany should have just stormed Kings Landing when she landed. This war would have been over. Its a better to ruler of Ashes than to be dead and not rule at all. Now she has lost every single ally. Not sure if she can persuade Jon to join her cause. The scene Im most looking forward to is the Bran and Snow scene now. Bran is gonna need to do some convincing.
 
RDCR07 said:
Dany should have just stormed Kings Landing when she landed. This war would have been over. Its a better to ruler of Ashes than to be dead and not rule at all. Now she has lost every single ally. Not sure if she can persuade Jon to join her cause. The scene Im most looking forward to is the Bran and Snow scene now. Bran is gonna need to do some convincing.
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Will she end up in a difficult situation where she has no other option left but to attack KL with her dragons and burn everything?

Or will we have an episode where her forces fight against Cersei's, and Bronn will get back in time to KL to save bad puss, Jon will be back up North already, then back South again, Marty will have to go back to 1955...
 
Pscholes18 said:
Good episode...Cersi has got to be one of the most hated characters ever....she's an evil cnut yet many don't seem to care....Dany is getting her ass kicked...out manuvered at every turn...all she has left are the Dothraki and her dragons. Olenna is gonna Olenna...she crushed it until the very end.
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How the hell do you hate Cersei? She is such a good and interesting character. You hate Goffrey and Ramsey's characters not Cersei's.
 
Mr Pigeon said:
Will she end up in a difficult situation where she has no other option left but to attack KL with her dragons and burn everything?

Or will we have an episode where her forces fight against Cersei's, and Bronn will get back in time to KL to save bad puss, Jon will be back up North already, then back South again, Marty will have to go back to 1955...
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Her attacking Kings Landing depends on how many men and ships she lost. I think she is forced to ally with Jon Snow now rather than the other way around.
 
I think Highgarden is small potatoes in the end, and they wanted to spend what limited time they had with Olenna and Jamie. And I think it was a good choice.
 
Mr Pigeon said:
I wouldn't be surprised if some are upset because you don't have characters starting each scene by saying "It's been three weeks since I *describes what they did the last time we saw them*".
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As you said in a different post, some sacrifices have been made.
Due to lesser episodes (and this might be a budget thing), theyve chosen to have less episodes (but a few of these having more run time). It probably makes it easier to to do given some constraints.

Some of the travel in previous seasons were important to the building of the characters. Seeing Jamie and his troops come up against an enemy and taking them out doesnt do much for the story itself so I can understand theres no reason to show. But showing them march on highgarden with Olenna looking on does.

I think the majority of the complaints do still seem to based on time / travel and stuff thats been described in books which is easy to see (as some of the stuff / reason have not been shown in the show). I think some people are taking it way too seriously in terms of finding negatives especially when there are so many good things to post about the episode and / or season.

Arbitrium said:
What were people expecting with jon and danys scenes? I thought they acted exactly like they normally would and it made for great watching.

Also

the foreshadowing is so good. Jon says " I'm not a stark " then the dragon flies right over him
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I thought so to. I would have been disappointed had they got along straight away. THey dont know each other or what the other has been through. And whilst dragons are easier to believe in (heck they have skulls and bones of it around Westeros), WW were still something only a few have actually seen.
 
Wait so this might seem a silly question but who is the rightful heir to the Iron Throne? Is it Dany or Snow?
 
fcbforever said:
I feel like it's a severe case of people accepting things when GRRM writes it, but not when D&D did. We have (in the books) seen Deepwood Motte fall in a few hours when attacked by surprise by Stannis. If not for the surprise attack by Tywin Lannister, King's Landing would have fallen in one night, despite preperations. Theon Greyjoy took Winterfell with 30 men. So that's alright, but this isn't?
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As I've said about a hundred million times in this thread, if we'd have gone through the early seasons with a fine tooth comb in the way we have the latter seasons this show never would have become the worldwide blockbuster entertainment smash it is now. The logic of the early seasons is just as questionable as it is now, people just aren't ready to accept it because it's not GRRM doing the work. That's not to say the show is as good as it was between s1-s5, because it isn't, but the cheesy deus ex machina, plot contrivances and inconsistent logic have always, always been a factor. It's part of what makes the show so fun.
 
I liked that episode, I do firmly believe there has been a noticeable drop in quality over the last couple of seasons, still a great show mind.

The only TV show I've ever watched more than once & I'm tempted to do it all again!

The good news is the last two episodes are 71 minutes / 81 minutes although next episode is only 50 :(

I imagine this season will probably end with the Lannisters being defeated although it'd be quite interesting to see the North being pushed out of the North and having the Undead fecking them one side & the Lannisters on the other.
 
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