Future planning - Replacing Carrick

HabeasC said:
People are seriously writing off blind who, at points, has been very good for us this season. Carrick, whilst being brilliant, has also come in with our new formation, which is generally more balanced.

Blind was playing in all sorts of formations, without herrera and mata. He should be given the benefit of the doubt and at least given a chance. In this 433, he could really excel.
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Rather, people seriously think that Blind could be the answer? He's a good player but Manchester United should always aim higher, he's neither a young prospect, he doesn't excel in anything.

Maybe the biggest problem is that people compare Blind to Carrick who is also well past it. We haven't bought a proper midfielder since Hargreaves so I get the hype around any decent player better than Cleverley. Ask yourself a question, would Blind/Carrick at 34 start for Real, Bayern, Barcelona, Chelsea and whoever top team you wish to add in the champions league final in full strength? I guess they would struggle to get on the bench at some point.

Both are good squad players but we need someone with higher ceiling that's for sure..
 
RedSky said:
Johannes Geis for me. He'll be one of those players in 2 years time that half the Caf will be cursing we didn't go in for while he's still at Mainz. Quality player and a leader despite being so young. Future rock of the German midfield.
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I didn't think of him but he's definetly an option. He's had a good season so far.
 
We should have learnt by now that you shouldn't look to directly replace a player. You bring in new players who you think will fit in with and balance your existing team effectively in their own right, not prospective carbon copies of the man you're trying to replace.

For me, the answer is an aggressive, box-to-box all-rounder. Then you can play Blind at the base of midfield - providing the fluency and recycling the ball like Carrick, but admittedly lacking Carrick's forward passing range - the all-rounder to add further defensive bite but also energy and forward drive, and then pick from the likes of Herrera, Mata, Di Maria etc to be the creative attacking midfielder ahead of them.

We couldn't replace Scholes, and probably suffered from trying to do so. Instead, we've allowed new players to fit together and divide up the midfield responsibilities differently. The same thing will have to happen when Carrick isn't an option any more.
 
m1y2 said:
Rather, people seriously think that Blind could be the answer? He's a good player but Manchester United should always aim higher, he's neither a young prospect, he doesn't excel in anything.

Maybe the biggest problem is that people compare Blind to Carrick who is also well past it. We haven't bought a proper midfielder since Hargreaves so I get the hype around any decent player better than Cleverley. Ask yourself a question, would Blind/Carrick at 34 start for Real, Bayern, Barcelona, Chelsea and whoever top team you wish to add in the champions league final in full strength? I guess they would struggle to get on the bench at some point.

Both are good squad players but we need someone with higher ceiling that's for sure..
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Completely disagree, on a number of points.

On Blind:
  • Questioning whether he would start at another team or not is a terrible argument. You are right neither would start at Real, Bayern or Barca. However, just because they have good midfielders, does not make ours inadequate. Anyway, arguably both would start at Arsenal, Man City and perhaps Chelsea (depending on whether Fabregas is playing at CM or further forward, if not they would over Ramires).
  • Saying that he doesn't excel at anything is also completely wrong. He was voted the top player in the Netherlands for a reason. He recycles the ball well, will rarely lose it, if ever, is very fluid, is good defensively and also has a very good footballing brain. He is a very good player, but he seems to have become terrible here based on a few games where the whole team was a shambles and where we generally had a lot less balance in the team. Consider that he has played most of his games in mf when we were playing all of Falcao, RVP, Rooney and also ADM when fit. He was getting no help defensively and having Rooney as a CM partner means he will always struggle.

Also disagree about not buying a proper midfielder since Hargreaves:
  • What do you think Herrera/Blind/Fellaini are? This is the best midfield we have had in years.
  • All of them have flourished in this new system (433) and are looking to show the potential that their price tags suggested.
  • We arguably have a better midfield in those three than Liverpool, City and Tottenham do. Perhaps only Arsenal and Chelsea can claim to have better midfields, with neither being a cut-and-dry argument.

I'm not saying that we don't need to buy a new midfielder and I would be all for bringing in Schneiderlin, Pogba, Koke, etc if they are available and willing to come as it is an area where we will need numbers after Carrick retires. However, at the minute, I see no reason why Blind could not excel as the CDM in this system with three midfielders who are capable both offensively and, more importantly, defensively.
 
RedSky said:
Johannes Geis for me. He'll be one of those players in 2 years time that half the Caf will be cursing we didn't go in for while he's still at Mainz. Quality player and a leader despite being so young. Future rock of the German midfield.
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I've watched him a few times this season, excellent passing range and a good set-piece taker, maybe the stats will prove me wrong but he doesn't seem to get involved in the tackling side of the game an awful lot though for a CM.
 
loony said:
Schneiderlin screens the defence but isn't a playmaker. I would stilllike him to come to us this summer as the midfield destroyer.

Ideal Carrick replacement is Ilkay Gündoğan imo. 12/13 Gündoğan was superb, watch him in the CL final 2012 and the German Super Cup vs Bayern. The best midfielder on the pitch. If he maintains his fitness & keeps improving then he's the one we should go for. He'd be perfect for us and would replace Carrick with the potential to be better than Carrick with time. Of course his back injury was a major concern but he has came back this season and if he maintains fitness then he's worth it imo. He has only 1 year remaining on his deal at the moment so his price would probably be around €18m.
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Agree on Gündogan but I do not think that he will leave Dortmund. However Blind should be given a run as he shares some qualities with Carrick.
 
Devil may care said:
I've watched him a few times this season, excellent passing range and a good set-piece taker, maybe the stats will prove me wrong but he doesn't seem to get involved in the tackling side of the game an awful lot though for a CM.
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He does enough. He's more of a creator. His passing and shooting from distance is the first thing you notice with him, but there's more to him. I've said it before, if you had to find a Scholes type player, he'd be closest thing to that sort of player.
 
bucky said:
He does enough. He's more of a creator. His passing and shooting from distance is the first thing you notice with him, but there's more to him. I've said it before, if you had to find a Scholes type player, he'd be closest thing to that sort of player.
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So do you think we'd need two strong #8's in there with him for him to flourish? Kinda like Pirlo has at the base of the Juve midfield.
 
bucky said:
He does enough. He's more of a creator. His passing and shooting from distance is the first thing you notice with him, but there's more to him. I've said it before, if you had to find a Scholes type player, he'd be closest thing to that sort of player.
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I don't think there is such a thing as a 'Scholes type player'. Scholes played in the team from about 21 to 38, and was a ery different player at different stages. We need to have an idea specifically of the type of midfielder we want to bring in.
 
As others have said, I think it'll be more about bringing better balance into the midfield (which we haven't really had for years now) than directly replacing Carrick. We've gotten away with not having much physicality in there for a while, in large part thanks to Carrick's particular skill set, but even next for next season we shouldn't really bank on this any more. We should just buy the best available destroyer type or genuine box to box midfielder this summer, ideally both. Depending on what happens to Di Maria and Mata, I think the skill sets of Blind, Herrera, Fellaini and one of those two creative guys are diverse enough that anyone of the above types with genuine quality will fit in well.
 
I don't know how will he return from injury but given Bayern's options in the midfield surely Javi Martinez can be available? Is there a better Carrick replacement?
 
Would want to have Javi here, wanted him already before he joined Bayern. If he returns to full fitness maybe the perfect replacement! Not very similar in style of play but still on eof the best no.6 around!
 
Martinez would be a dream.

Wanted him since Bilbao beat us in the Europa few years back.
 
Has Bayern said anything about being willing to let him go? I doubt Martinez will be available and on top of that we should probably wait and see how a year long injury has affected his career before we really go for him?
 
Javi Martinez was pretty central to Guardiola's plans at the start of the season and he had to buy in 2 players when he got injured. One of them was the aging Alonso who I imagine will head to the bench as soon as Martinez is fully ready.
 
Devil may care said:
So do you think we'd need two strong #8's in there with him for him to flourish? Kinda like Pirlo has at the base of the Juve midfield.
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Good question and suggestion. It's hard to tell, really. IMO Schneiderlin and Ander Herrera would be great next to him, but I don't think he's ready just yet. Like I said, I'd buy Schneiderlin and Xhaka, buy Geis on top of that while he'd still be cheap and loan him to Gladbach, since they are going to lose Kramer to Leverkusen and need a new midfielder and let him stay there till Carrick retires. Schneiderlin, Xhaka and Geis are all different types of players, Schneiderlin would take Carrick's place as the holding midfielder, Xhaka and Geis would compete for the box-to-box role and for the central attacking midfielder we'd have Herrera, Mata and Rooney.

http://www.squawka.com/comparison-m...al_duels_won_%/total_duels_%/interceptions#90

Rozay said:
I don't think there is such a thing as a 'Scholes type player'. Scholes played in the team from about 21 to 38, and was a ery different player at different stages. We need to have an idea specifically of the type of midfielder we want to bring in.
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I meant that he has similar qualities like Scholes. He has a good shot, his longe range passing is probably his stand out quality, he's strong and doesn't get bullied easily, he's creative and capable of creating a lot of chances chances, and he's also contributing defensively. He isn't as good obviously, but he's still young and will probably grow into a great midfielder.

Devil may care said:
Javi Martinez was pretty central to Guardiola's plans at the start of the season and he had to buy in 2 players when he got injured. One of them was the aging Alonso who I imagine will head to the bench as soon as Martinez is fully ready.
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He'll probably play him as a centre back again, which is a waste. But like you said, it's very unlikely that Munich will let him go.
 
bucky said:
Good question and suggestion. It's hard to tell, really. IMO Schneiderlin and Ander Herrera would be great next to him, but I don't think he's ready just yet. Like I said, I'd buy Schneiderlin and Xhaka, buy Geis on top of that while he'd still be cheap and loan him to Gladbach, since they are going to lose Kramer to Leverkusen and need a new midfielder and let him stay there till Carrick retires. Schneiderlin, Xhaka and Geis are all different types of players, Schneiderlin would take Carrick's place as the holding midfielder, Xhaka and Geis would compete for the box-to-box role and for the central attacking midfielder we'd have Herrera, Mata and Rooney.

http://www.squawka.com/comparison-m...al_duels_won_%/total_duels_%/interceptions#90
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I'd be very surprised if we bought 3 more CM's in truth mate, but those stats are really interesting, his interception stats are good and while his pass accuracy is lower by quite a bit his chances created and key passes stat is much higher, so obviously he is playing a lot more adventurously than the others, and the risk/reward balance seems to mostly pay off.
 
Devil may care said:
I'd be very surprised if we bought 3 more CM's in truth mate, but those stats are really interesting, his interception stats are good and while his pass accuracy is lower by quite a bit his chances created and key passes stat is much higher, so obviously he is playing a lot more adventurously than the others, and the risk/reward balance seems to mostly pay off.
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Yeah, I think 2 for midfield would be enough. There's just a lot of players out there, I'd hope we have a look at or sign. Schneiderlin, Xhaka, Geis, Sanson and Koke are all players, I'd like to see at United, we can't have them all though. The pass accuracy thing is down to how almost every team in the Bundesliga is set up. Balu mentioned it somewhere else and he was spot on, how every team apart from Munich and Gladbach is trying to replicate Dortmund's style. Which means pressing and not caring about possession, to put it bluntly.
 
LR7 said:
I hope it'll be Ben Pearson.
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Strootman is the man if he can get back to full fitness and continues to progress as he was before his injury. Pearson would be his replacement/cover in the coming years. Tielemans is a good shout too.
 
bucky said:
Yeah, I think 2 for midfield would be enough. There's just a lot of players out there, I'd hope we have a look at or sign. Schneiderlin, Xhaka, Geis, Sanson and Koke are all players, I'd like to see at United, we can't have them all though. The pass accuracy thing is down to how almost every team in the Bundesliga is set up. Balu mentioned it somewhere else and he was spot on, how every team apart from Munich and Gladbach is trying to replicate Dortmund's style. Which means pressing and not caring about possession, to put it bluntly.
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That's true, I mean already that young lad from Ajax, Bazoer, is one I hope we are looking at but we can't have them all so we have to hope our scouts and management team buy the best combinations for the team. Ah I see, I have only seen Mainz a handful of times this season so I hadn't really taken that into account. Would you say Wolfsburg pressed? they seem to me more like a team that invites pressure on and then hits on the counter which is where De Bruyne has been so effective this season.
 
Devil may care said:
That's true, I mean already that young lad from Ajax, Bazoer, is one I hope we are looking at but we can't have them all so we have to hope our scouts and management team buy the best combinations for the team. Ah I see, I have only seen Mainz a handful of times this season so I hadn't really taken that into account. Would you say Wolfsburg pressed? they seem to me more like a team that invites pressure on and then hits on the counter which is where De Bruyne has been so effective this season.
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I'm not sure. The teams I've regularly seen this season in the Bundesliga are Schalke, Munich, Dortmund and Gladbach. I've seen a fair bit of Mainz, Hoffenheim and Leverkusen as well, Wolfsburg on the other hand I haven't watched as often. Was trying to make a general statement and Balu's opinion seemed spot on to me.
 
KM said:
I don't know how will he return from injury but given Bayern's options in the midfield surely Javi Martinez can be available? Is there a better Carrick replacement?
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A Javi Martinez on top form would actually be one of the very few upgrades on Carrick (although just a slight upgrade). Then there is his chemistry with Herrera.

Would Pep sell him though?
 
Wasn't Javi Martinez the Caf's long term muppet signing a few years ago?
 
I don't think Pep will sell Martinez. I'm reading the book Pep Confidential at the moment and in the first 100 pages it must have been mentioned 15 times that Guardiola wants Martinez for CB. Only way he leaves imo is if he forces it because he wants to play as a CM. He'd be perfect for our midfield though. The main thing is that we don't focus on getting an exact Carrick replacement. Outside of Busquets or Alonso there isn't one out there. Marco Verratti would be the most similar, but we're never getting him from PSG.

The only players we could replace Carrick's role in terms of ball retention & circulation are Kroos, Pjanić, Modrić, Koke and Gündoğan. We won't get Kroos, nor have Real Madrid tired of Modrić yet, although it will be interesting if they get Pogba because then someone will have to go. Koke would cost a lot but isn't looking to leave Atlético at the moment. Gündoğan has only a year left on his contract, if he doesn't extend then we could get him. We could get Pjanić as well, although at a high price. All of them are very good players, but Gündoğan is the perfect one imo. They won't replace Carrick as a CDM, but one of these players plus Schneiderlin, L Bender or Kramer and we'd have a very good midfield.
 
I agree, Gundogan is the best of the realisitic midfield signings.
 
Devil may care said:
That's true, I mean already that young lad from Ajax, Bazoer, is one I hope we are looking at but we can't have them all so we have to hope our scouts and management team buy the best combinations for the team. Ah I see, I have only seen Mainz a handful of times this season so I hadn't really taken that into account. Would you say Wolfsburg pressed? they seem to me more like a team that invites pressure on and then hits on the counter which is where De Bruyne has been so effective this season.
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Bazoer is very talented but no where near ready.
 
Not this summer but next summer we will need to replace him and I have no idea who. I would have said Javi Martinez pre-injury but I'm not sure now.
 
Gerald G said:
Not this summer but next summer we will need to replace him and I have no idea who. I would have said Javi Martinez pre-injury but I'm not sure now.
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Van Gaal would never do it, but I'd like to see Gundogan.

Gundogan - Herrera
Mata​

Madrid do similar with Modric/Kroos playing behind Isco or James. If the players positioning is good, I'm not sure the need for an out and out ball winner is needed most of the time. In harder games you'd be able to put in Blind or Fellaini.

Alternatively, if we are after a powerhouse, I'd chuck £20m at Southampton and take Wanyama.
 
I think too many are listing straight up DM's as Carrick's replacement. From what we have heard and learned about LvG he likes the ball winning to be done by the #8's and seems to like a cultured #6 that can dictate play and read a game, rather than play as a destroyer.

khoazany said:
Bazoer is very talented but no where near ready.
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Like Pogba has shown it's amazing how quickly that young talent can suddenly become a starting level player at a big club. I was really just meaning we should look to get in on the ground floor with him, like buying him and loaning him back to Ajax maybe next summer.
 
Devil may care said:
I think too many are listing straight up DM's as Carrick's replacement. From what we have heard and learned about LvG he likes the ball winning to be done by the #8's and seems to like a cultured #6 that can dictate play and read a game, rather than play as a destroyer.



Like Pogba has shown it's amazing how quickly that young talent can suddenly become a starting level player at a big club. I was really just meaning we should look to get in on the ground floor with him, like buying him and loaning him back to Ajax maybe next summer.
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There are also players who shown promises but failed to deliver when they reach the highest level of football.Currently I haven't seen anything Bazoer has done at first team level that put him above of let's say Saul Niguez,Youri Tielemans,Ruben Neves or even that Geis lad in our "monitoring list".Have to repeat that I have no doubt about his natural talent.

I'm actually on the minority that thinking we don't exactly need a new CM for next season.After Carrick is done at this level,yes but currently we're even struggling to put Pereira on the bench with our number of options.Nobody is exactly under performing either.Wouldn't complain if we buy one though.
 
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khoazany said:
There are also players who shown promises but failed to deliver when they reach the highest level of football.Currently I haven't seen anything Bazoer has done at first team level that put him above of let's say Saul Niguez,Youri Tielemans,Ruben Neves or even that Geis lad in our "monitoring list".

I'm actually on the minority that thinking we don't exactly need a new CM for next season.After Carrick is done at this level,yes but currently we're even struggling to put Pereira on the bench with our number of options.
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Saul Niguez and Geis are a couple of years older at least with more first team football, I'd also say he's different to Tielemans and Neves who both play deeper, where Bazoer is a very athletic #8.

I don't think we have that many options in the system LvG plays, unless you are counting Mata and Di Maria as CM's, which I don't think LvG does. We have 2 #6's in Carrick and Blind but we only have Herrera and Fellaini who are proper CM's that can play as the 2 #8's in our 4-3-3, if either get injured we are back to playing Rooney in midfield which should be avoided at all costs IMO.
 
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