He’s a quality player that I’d love to see us sign but if he simply doesn’t want to join us (can’t really blame him) then nothing we can do other than move onto our next target.
Frenkie de Jong | The last muppeting lap
- Thread starter davidmichael
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But this is begging, its beyond convincing. We have made these excuses for Sanchez, Di Maria etc and even hoping catering to Pogba means he might stay. It doesn't seem to work for us.
At Barcelona there is a war between Bartomeu (Mundodeportivo) and Laporta (Sport).
When FDJ signed for Barcelona in the mundodeportivo it was said that he was going to earn about 6M net.
After signing FDJ Barcelona tried to sign De Ligt, the transfer price was not a problem. What set back the operation was the 7+3N net salary offered by Juventus.
Barcelona could not reach that salary or come close. If Barcelona could not with De Ligt reach that amount it does not have much credibility that De Jong earn 11M net and more after a renewal lowering his salary due to the pandemic.
Barcelona seems to be reaching an agreement to sell 49% of BLM and BarcaStudios for 350-400M, that helps for the wage bill
I guess they need to sell at least one high profile player. So if it's Frenkie they choose, he knows Barca got other priorities. So what's next step? Frenkie will have multiple choices, right? He would choose the best club for him. No force...
A double pivot generally consists of a clear first (no.6) and second (no.8) function midfielder. A double pivot can be described as a double 6. 'Not as a 'lone' 6' = play him in a double pivot.
He is not a CDM either. I would consider him a CM.
Move on to Fabain Ruiz. Will be much cheaper too
Your point is that we need box to box playing next to FDJ as per shown in 18/19 season, so are you trying to say that ETH's quote and the pictures below were incorrect?
Because in this logic of yours FDJ cannot be the ''clear first'' but actually the ''function midfielder'' because he doesn't sit, he was roaming in lot of different areas/positions (as per shown in ETH's quote and the pictures below). The ''clear first'' was Schone as he was the one who sits more. Therefore, it makes sense why I recommended Kamara not the box to box midfielder as he would suit to play the Schone's role if ETH is trying to replicate that 18/19 team.
Rate him highly but like someone has already said,only want him here if he really wants it.Shouldn't have to beg him.
If anything it speaks well of the player if he doesn't just blindly jump on the chance to join us because the money is good. We need ambitious players. Perfectly normal that he need to be convinced on a project, any top talent will need some convincing to come here.
We don't have any proof we are begging.
Maybe he wants to stay at Barca but if they force him out he will consider us?
Truth is we don't know anything about what's happening.
6m euros net seems little if that is the salary offered in Jan 2019 to sign FDJ, we all know PSG attempted to sign FDJ, and offered him a big contract and Barca beat that offer definitely.
11m euros seems plausible, but I expect that is now probably lowered in mid 2020 during the pandemic lockdown and was reduced but not forgone as it's delayed.
Commercially it's as lucrative to a player as it is to a club. Top players probably miss out on making a couple of million or more each season they don't play in the CL
Your point is that we need box to box playing next to FDJ as per shown in 18/19 season, so are you trying to say that ETH's quote and the pictures below were incorrect?
Because in this logic of yours FDJ cannot be the ''clear first'' but actually the ''function midfielder'' because he doesn't sit, he was roaming in lot of different areas/positions (as per shown in ETH's quote and the pictures below). The ''clear first'' was Schone as he was the one who sits more. Therefore, it makes sense why I recommended Kamara not the box to box midfielder as he would suit to play the Schone's role if ETH is trying to replicate that 18/19 team.
The Ten Hag quote marries with what I am saying. The pictures are just nonsense.
De Jong was the first function midfielder because,of the midfielders on the pitch for that Ajax side, he operated deepest. Your assertion that Schone was the one who sits more is simply incorrect. This is where we disagree, everything else is just arguing over semantics.
Erik Ten Hag in 2019: "He leaves the middle of the pitch too often for that. And if you don’t give him the freedom to go forward, you won’t get the best out of his game."
In 18/19, ETH gave FDJ's a role that allowed him to roam the deepest and also go forward. If FDJ was the midfielder that given freedom to go forward then Schone cannot be the box to box because box to box also needs freedom to go forward. How can you play box to box next to someone like De Jong who needs to be given freedom to go forward? Who was the one sit when FDJ goes forward then if it's not Schone? This is where your logic doesn't make sense.
If he doesn't have United tattooed on his chest and pisses red I don't want him.
Only want players who want to play for United.
Only want players who want to play for United.
Again, semantics. Ten Hag isn't saying De Jong shouldn't be the first function midfielder.
Schone had freedom to go forward. In fact, in certain situations it was his job to move forward and operate in a more advanced area. Schone, obviously, took position at the base of midfield as necessary when De Jong went forward - that doesn't mean he didn't move forward himself, couldn't be described as box to box or played behind/ was more disciplined than De Jong.
This one has Di Maria vibes all over it, hopefully we stay away. By all the reports he doesn't want to leave Barca, he's willing to even lower his wages in order to stay. If we force him to come we'll have an overpaid unmotivated player.
We don't need that, the first thing we should be looking at is desire to join us. No matter how they are, if they don't want to it won't end well.
We don't need that, the first thing we should be looking at is desire to join us. No matter how they are, if they don't want to it won't end well.
You’re ignoring/forgetting the ETH factor. If he comes he won’t be unmotivated working for a former coach. If he comes it will most likely be for ETH primarily so he will perform, no doubt.
I completely agree. He would be an absolutely amazing player to get but not if he had no interest being here. It's not even enough for him to be professional, we need players who will give us their all.
I'm still secretly hoping that, even if he wants to stay at Barca, he's also very open to the idea of playing for us. I'm using up my Muppet token on him this summer.
Wikipedia in Spanish labels him as a MUFC player 
. Probably will be edited soon.
. Probably will be edited soon.It’s not like ADM because he’s be coming into a system and manger that’s perfect for him whereas ADM basically had the opposite
also, Dutch players are more suited to the English culture than Argentinians
actually which part is like ADM here? That he doesn’t want to come here which is mostly guesswork really
also, Dutch players are more suited to the English culture than Argentinians
actually which part is like ADM here? That he doesn’t want to come here which is mostly guesswork really
All of a sudden so much crap rumours about this guy every single day. Rumours who started based on nothing except his past link to our new manager.
Frenkie himself only a month or so ago said if Barcelona offer him a new 6 year deal he'll sign it and how much he loves playing there so already we know for a fact he doesn't want to leave.
What happens when you sign such players, the ones not keen on joining? The result is you'll get the cnuts like Di Maria..
Frenkie himself only a month or so ago said if Barcelona offer him a new 6 year deal he'll sign it and how much he loves playing there so already we know for a fact he doesn't want to leave.
What happens when you sign such players, the ones not keen on joining? The result is you'll get the cnuts like Di Maria..
Wikipedia in Spanish labels him as a MUFC player
Frenkie de Jong (Arkel, Países Bajos, 12 de mayo de 1997) es un futbolista neerlandés que juega como centrocampista, y ocasionalmente como defensa, en el Manchester United F. C. de la Premier League de Inglaterra y en la selección neerlandesa.1
I think the disagreement between us here is that you think holding midfielder should be the deepest one in midfield and the one that is not the deepest one is called ''box to box''. In the general idea yes. That's why you thought Schone has freedom to go forward like he's box to box, which you concluded that Kamara can't play in his role but in reality that wasn't the case. Because Ajax 18/19 double pivot doesn't operate the same as the general idea of double pivot. The special thing about the Ajax 18/19 double pivot system where neither double pivot players played box to box role, it's actually one was libero while the other one was deep-lying playmaker.
You might ask if Schone never had freedom to go forward and his role is Deep-lying playmaker / deep-lying midfielder then how come FDJ's position is deeper than Schone?
FDJ - Libero
Well, this can be explained if we call FDJ's role is the modern day Libero. The traditional Libero is a defender who plays behind the rest of the back line, and is responsible for covering and sweeping across the spaces behind other defenders. The role grew to include passing forwards after a regain – often to launch a counter-attack – and eventually driving into midfield with the ball, or running forward off the ball to instigate an attack.
For a reference about Traditional Libero, read this link:
https://www.coachesvoice.com/cv/what-is-a-libero-explained-baresi-beckenbauer-maguire-stones/#:~:text=A libero is a defender,the spaces behind other defenders.
So let's compare FDJ the modern Libero with the traditional Libero
| De Jong - The modern libero | Traditional libero |
| Tends to position himself the deepest, sometime even deeper than defender | A defender who plays behind the rest of the back line |
| Gets a licence to drive the ball forward from defense to midfield area, which is ETH called it freedom to move forward. | Ability to driving into midfield with the ball, or running forward off the ball to instigate an attack. |
You might get confused why comparing FDJ's modern libero role and the traditional libero role can support the argument about why in your eye that Schone had freedom to go forward but in the reality he didn't?
Schone - Deeplying Playmaker / Deeplying Midfielder
The key lies on De Jong's position as the modern libero. His positioning was sometime deeper than the CB or sometime on the same line as CB (The table above). So when you watched the match, you though Schone gets the license to go forward since FDJ was deeper than him but in reality, Schone's position was the same as how deep-lying playmaker positioned himself. Instead of Schone going forward, it was actually De Jong who dropped deep from the same line as Schone's position to CB's positon or even deeper than CB. Therefore, Schone 18/19 wasn't box to box and he also didn't get the license to go forward. Neither players' roles were box to box, so it's not necessary you need box to box to play next to FDJ if ETH wants to replicate that 18/19 midfield.
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Romero is live again.
There are countless example of players moving on when they didn't want to leave and finding great success. Most players dream of Barca or Madrid. They can't all play there. Sanchez, Robben, Sneijder, Ozil all left against their wishes and became great players. Di Maria has been excellent for PSG, and even started well for United but didn't suit Van Gaal at all which was the big problem. Beckham didn't want to leave United but had plenty of success at Madrid. Etc. Players will be professional. A big difference with De Jong anyway is that he would come to join Ten Hag, a system that we all know he suits perfectly and a manager that we know he'd give his all for. So that's not a worry anyway, not that De Jong has ever shown any character issues in the first place.
It's a pointless comparison. Teams who aren't at the pinnacle of football have to do convincing to top players for them to join. It's normal. You have to convince them of your project and that the previous 10 years of failure are going to end and how they fit. United didn't have to do that under Sir Alex, but they do now just like everyone else had to.
It's becoming clear to me that Romero's job last night in his stream was more like PR assigned by the club to make sure that the fans can understand and don't get upset that it's not the club, the player, and Xavi intention to sell De Jong, it was because they are in financial problem; thus, they must sell. This is similar to Messi all over again. Barcelona knew what they were doing when they signed Kessie, which lot of people questioned why they needed Kessie when they already had De Jong, Gavi, Pedri, and Busquets because Barcelona knew they needed to sell De Jong and Kessie was bought in to replace his spot to help solving Barcelona's financial problem. This is on, De Jong will be sold.
Muppets live on
Think he’s talking about Lim and Laporte meeting. Presumably the insinuation is it’s about Carlos Soler.
By all reports he doesn't want to leave Barca, he willing to lower his wages in order to stay. Also it's been mentioned that if he were to leave he wants UCL football and a top 5 club. If we manage to get him it would definitely be by forcing his hand or overpaying him.
No matter that Ten Hag is here, if that was such a factor it would be known by now. It's clear having Ten Hag doesn't make up for all the other stuff.
Good point. Hopefully he will be convinced.
Im not saying it can't work out, as you said plenty player that didn't want to go to certain team ended up performing great. But its definitely one big issue to consider, at this point in time I think we shouldn't take the risk. Specially because it would take a big chunk of our transfer budget and we have plenty of holes to fill in the squad.
Every journo and pseudojourno know that we are very naive and fall for every muppetry.
Easy way to make money whether the story is true or not.
Despite all the counter examples given every time, there must be a "but Di Maria" on almost every page.
Wow this thread...
Three things:
1. Some people really need to wake up and get back to reality. And then I mean the people that say 'United shouldn't bother if the player doesn't want to join', because there are rumours that he's willing to take a paycut to stay at Barca. Firstly, how would that be a bad thing? That would actually show a player that's loyal, stays comitted to a project and doesn't just leave at the first moment of pressure or backlash (critisizm at the club).
How people see that as a bad thing is beyond me. Basicly that can only come down to one thing; people are seriously overrating Manchester United and/or looking at it way too much from a fans perspective. Remember one thing, players are not fans. Players have one carreer of 10-15 years in which they have to achieve their goals. The are no professional players, unless they are average, and with no players I mean zero, nil, no one, none, that would do anything in the world to play for Manchester United. Top players generally don't give a shit about United, City, Chelsea, Liverpool, Real Madrid, Barcelona, Juventus, Milan, PSG or Bayern. They might have a preference, but in the end of the day they want to play top level football and/or earn as much money as they can. Just like most of us by the way, expect football players have a short carreer. As I said, they are not fans.
By understanding that you have to know that you should see it as a complete honor at this point if any top player or top prospect is even considering to play for Man Utd at this moment. Because in the end of the day, Manchester United at this point is not a title contending side (don't even look close to it) and is not playing at the highest level of European football (Champions League). I also see that some people are suprised by the weight that's put on CL football. But this is actually quite logical, because in the end of the day the Premier League title is just a domestic title. For any European player a European title is a bigger prize than a domestic title. That is just a fact. Of course there's a fair point that the Premier League is harder to win as it's a league competition whereas the CL is a cup competition that only becomes exciting in the KO-phase. This is true, but that doesn't change the fact that a European prize is higher than a domestic prize.
This goes especially for someone that's not a native to that respective league. I am pretty sure that for Virgil van Dijk his CL title is worth much more than his PL title. I am pretty sure that the Chelsea players, especially those who are not English, that won the CL title last year wouldn't trade it for the PL title and they would probably rather win another CL title next year rather than their first PL title. Winning the Champions League is the highest prize in club football. This is a fact and therefore it's very important for top players to play CL football.
This is even more the case when playing for English clubs because of the competition. If you miss out it only becomes harder to get in again (see Liverpool for a long time and Arsenal now). What if you are a top player and join Man Utd now. Then no CL football this year. But if you don't qualify next year - of which there is no guarantee, then next year there will even be less appeal for other topplayers to join and strenghten the squad. On top of that players like Bruno or Varane might want to leave, essentially making it much harder to succeed and play for silverware.
Therefore those who say that United shouldn't bother for FdJ just because there aren't any articles that state how much he wants to join Man Utd are really full of themselves. United is not in a position to think that top players / top prospects are waiting in line to join. Those players have a list of other options and other clubs that simply have competitive advantages over Manchester United at this point. This is simply the way it is.
2. The position of FdJ; I see a lot of discussion about it, which I understand. I think this all comes down to the fact that FdJ is a unique player that doesn't tick the usual boxes. He doesn't fit your usual DM player, he also doesn't really fit your usual box to box midfielder and neither is he an AM. He's a unique player but therefore also one that needs to play in a unique team setup that suits his quality. Obviously EtH knows how to utilize him.
Barcelona clearly are not using him correctly. They are using him more as an AM in which goals and assists are asked from him and that's a quality that he doesn't really possess. Neither did he at Ajax or the NT. In my opinion Barcelona are afraid to say goodbye to Busquets. In Barcelona's football he should be playing on Busquets' position, but Xavi didn't want to say goodbye to his old teammate and therefore didn't use Frenkie to his strenghts.
3. On the other hand it makes sense that Barcelona now wants to get rid of Frenkie. I am convinced Barcelona will sell him. I understand why because they also have Gavi, Nico and Pedri in midfield and they've signed Kessie on a free. From that lot Frenkie represents the most value. Therefore I understand they want to sell him in order to raise money to improve the many holes in the rest of the team. With the mentioned players they have talent to work and grow with in the future.
The question is where Frenkie will go. Because of Ten Hag, I do think United have a chance. But obviously Frenkie would also fit Guardiola's football, so if City were interested I do think it would make more sense for Frenkie to go there. However, not sure if they are truly interested of course. Bayern would be a good team for him as well. I would like to see Frenkie team up with EtH again and form the heart of a new great United team. If it will happen remains to be seen. The impatient ones will probably be disappointed for a while because usually transfers of this magnitude take quite a while to conclude. Don't think we'll have a final outcome on this one anytime soon.
Three things:
1. Some people really need to wake up and get back to reality. And then I mean the people that say 'United shouldn't bother if the player doesn't want to join', because there are rumours that he's willing to take a paycut to stay at Barca. Firstly, how would that be a bad thing? That would actually show a player that's loyal, stays comitted to a project and doesn't just leave at the first moment of pressure or backlash (critisizm at the club).
How people see that as a bad thing is beyond me. Basicly that can only come down to one thing; people are seriously overrating Manchester United and/or looking at it way too much from a fans perspective. Remember one thing, players are not fans. Players have one carreer of 10-15 years in which they have to achieve their goals. The are no professional players, unless they are average, and with no players I mean zero, nil, no one, none, that would do anything in the world to play for Manchester United. Top players generally don't give a shit about United, City, Chelsea, Liverpool, Real Madrid, Barcelona, Juventus, Milan, PSG or Bayern. They might have a preference, but in the end of the day they want to play top level football and/or earn as much money as they can. Just like most of us by the way, expect football players have a short carreer. As I said, they are not fans.
By understanding that you have to know that you should see it as a complete honor at this point if any top player or top prospect is even considering to play for Man Utd at this moment. Because in the end of the day, Manchester United at this point is not a title contending side (don't even look close to it) and is not playing at the highest level of European football (Champions League). I also see that some people are suprised by the weight that's put on CL football. But this is actually quite logical, because in the end of the day the Premier League title is just a domestic title. For any European player a European title is a bigger prize than a domestic title. That is just a fact. Of course there's a fair point that the Premier League is harder to win as it's a league competition whereas the CL is a cup competition that only becomes exciting in the KO-phase. This is true, but that doesn't change the fact that a European prize is higher than a domestic prize.
This goes especially for someone that's not a native to that respective league. I am pretty sure that for Virgil van Dijk his CL title is worth much more than his PL title. I am pretty sure that the Chelsea players, especially those who are not English, that won the CL title last year wouldn't trade it for the PL title and they would probably rather win another CL title next year rather than their first PL title. Winning the Champions League is the highest prize in club football. This is a fact and therefore it's very important for top players to play CL football.
This is even more the case when playing for English clubs because of the competition. If you miss out it only becomes harder to get in again (see Liverpool for a long time and Arsenal now). What if you are a top player and join Man Utd now. Then no CL football this year. But if you don't qualify next year - of which there is no guarantee, then next year there will even be less appeal for other topplayers to join and strenghten the squad. On top of that players like Bruno or Varane might want to leave, essentially making it much harder to succeed and play for silverware.
Therefore those who say that United shouldn't bother for FdJ just because there aren't any articles that state how much he wants to join Man Utd are really full of themselves. United is not in a position to think that top players / top prospects are waiting in line to join. Those players have a list of other options and other clubs that simply have competitive advantages over Manchester United at this point. This is simply the way it is.
2. The position of FdJ; I see a lot of discussion about it, which I understand. I think this all comes down to the fact that FdJ is a unique player that doesn't tick the usual boxes. He doesn't fit your usual DM player, he also doesn't really fit your usual box to box midfielder and neither is he an AM. He's a unique player but therefore also one that needs to play in a unique team setup that suits his quality. Obviously EtH knows how to utilize him.
Barcelona clearly are not using him correctly. They are using him more as an AM in which goals and assists are asked from him and that's a quality that he doesn't really possess. Neither did he at Ajax or the NT. In my opinion Barcelona are afraid to say goodbye to Busquets. In Barcelona's football he should be playing on Busquets' position, but Xavi didn't want to say goodbye to his old teammate and therefore didn't use Frenkie to his strenghts.
3. On the other hand it makes sense that Barcelona now wants to get rid of Frenkie. I am convinced Barcelona will sell him. I understand why because they also have Gavi, Nico and Pedri in midfield and they've signed Kessie on a free. From that lot Frenkie represents the most value. Therefore I understand they want to sell him in order to raise money to improve the many holes in the rest of the team. With the mentioned players they have talent to work and grow with in the future.
The question is where Frenkie will go. Because of Ten Hag, I do think United have a chance. But obviously Frenkie would also fit Guardiola's football, so if City were interested I do think it would make more sense for Frenkie to go there. However, not sure if they are truly interested of course. Bayern would be a good team for him as well. I would like to see Frenkie team up with EtH again and form the heart of a new great United team. If it will happen remains to be seen. The impatient ones will probably be disappointed for a while because usually transfers of this magnitude take quite a while to conclude. Don't think we'll have a final outcome on this one anytime soon.
Despite all the counter examples given every time, there must be a "but Di Maria" on almost every page.
Before the De Jong rumours started United fans pretty much agreed we should take a different path in the transfer market and pursue targets who really wanted to come and fight for us. That idea pretty much went to shit the moment Romero linked him to us. Now United fans are grasping at straws for reasons we should chase him. Pretty silly if you ask me.
Unless he wants to come and play for Ten Hag, i dont want United chasing him. Most outlets are saying he desperately wants to stay or at least play in the Cl. As of today United should know if he is open and positive about joining us, and if he is forced out i hope United are saying no thank you.
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We want to sign players who are young and hungry enough and still have something to prove. Just because he already plays for a big club doesn't mean he doesn't meet those criteria. He's a proven quality player in a position and archetype we've needed forever. He hasn't yet personally achieved in the game what his talent shows he could. He's currently being misused and has the coach who knows him, admires him, and has shown to be able to get the best out of him coming here to manage us.
It isn't a Di Maria situation where the player has already won everything and is simply going to whoever puts the most money on the table. Ten Hag knows De Jong and should be able to talk to him, sell him on the project, and gauge from what he knows of his personality and what he's saying whether he'd be coming for the right reasons or not. If he isn't, we move on, but I'd suspect he would be.
Literally the only 'negative' aspect is that he's already at another big club that he's not in a hurry to leave. As has been mentioned dozens of times already in here, if the player's attitude is right, that is nothing at all to stop him from being a success somewhere else (Robben to Bayern, Sneijder to Inter, Toure to Abu Dhabi, Sanchez to Arsenal, Thiago to Bayern (and Liverpool), Fabregas to Chelsea, Cancelo to Abu Dhabi, Pirlo to Juve etc etc etc).
Has anyone mentioned this has Di Maria vibes yet?
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