Frenkie de Jong | The last muppeting lap

Frenkie to United?

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Adnan said:
The entire unit was aggressive hence why I constantly make mention of coaches who implement a compact high block. And ten Hag is amongst those coaches who sacrifices defensive stability for goals in a compact high block.

Did I say they waited for Schone to drop into de Jong's position? I obviously never said that, but Schone was positionally the more disciplined player next to de Jong, which allowed de Jong to make forays forward. You've actually responded by agreeing with what I originally said. Schone was converted into a more disciplined midfielder by ten Hag to accommodate de Jong.

i also never said the most defensively secure midfielder needs to be the deepest midfielder out of possession. In ten Hag's system the most advanced central attacker could end up as the deepest midfielder out of possession. And that's due to positional rotation.

If i'm not mistaken, I was the first poster to bring up Tchouameni on this forum. And a potential de Jong/Tchouameni pairing is very compatible. And Tchouameni is more than capable of operating as a box to box midfielder or even as we've recently seen where Clement has utilised him as a single pivot in a 4-14-1 formation.
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Schone was the no.8 to De Jong's no.6. How they moved and positioned themselves depended on exactly how the opposition set up. When De Jong dropped into the backline, Schone would occupy De Jong's space in front of the defence. Sometimes both would occupy parallel positions at the base of midfield, and sometimes Schone would make a run forward or occupy a higher position in order to give De Jong space to operate. The opposite, however, wasn't something they looked to do - De Jong would seldomly look to operate in a more advanced midfield area with Schone behind him.

De Jong used his dribbling as another means of progressing the ball from deep areas. After creating the angle for a good pass or space for a teammate in an advantageous position he would release the ball and continue in or return to a deep midfield position. When the side was in advanced areas, he would maintain depth as the anchoring player at the base of midfield. He was very disciplined, no less so than Schone. When I say that De Jong excels more in a two in a 4-2-3-1, I meant in comparison to playing as the single pivot in a 4-3-3, and in a similar way to how all-action no.6's such as Keane, Schweinsteiger, Matic or Kimmich suit playing in a two more.

Your proposed midfield had Tchouameni behind De Jong and Mejbri. Tchouameni as the primary DM out of possession, OK. De Jong as the first function midfielder in possession - errr OK so the midfield rotates to facilitate De Jong becoming the deepest midfielder? A compact high block in defensive transition - I don't see how Tchouameni returns to being the deepest midfielder while the team applies aggressive pressure? If he doesn't, why show him at the base of midfield and call him the primary DM? If he is always at the base of midfield, De Jong is not the first function midfielder and is being misused. And why show a setup with a single pivot anyway, rather than a deeper midfield two?
 
sherrinford said:
Schone was the no.8 to De Jong's no.6. How they moved and positioned themselves depended on exactly how the opposition set up. When De Jong dropped into the backline, Schone would occupy De Jong's space in front of the defence. Sometimes both would occupy parallel positions at the base of midfield, and sometimes Schone would make a run forward or occupy a higher position in order to give De Jong space to operate. The opposite, however, wasn't something they looked to do - De Jong would seldomly look to operate in a more advanced midfield area with Schone behind him.

De Jong used his dribbling as another means of progressing the ball from deep areas. After creating the angle for a good pass or space for a teammate in an advantageous position he would release the ball and continue in or return to a deep midfield position. When the side was in advanced areas, he would maintain depth as the anchoring player at the base of midfield. He was very disciplined, no less so than Schone. When I say that De Jong excels more in a two in a 4-2-3-1, I meant in comparison to playing as the single pivot in a 4-3-3, and in a similar way to how all-action no.6's such as Keane, Schweinsteiger, Matic or Kimmich suit playing in a two more.

Your proposed midfield had Tchouameni behind De Jong and Mejbri. Tchouameni as the primary DM out of possession, OK. De Jong as the first function midfielder in possession - errr OK so the midfield rotates to facilitate De Jong becoming the deepest midfielder? A compact high block in defensive transition - I don't see how Tchouameni returns to being the deepest midfielder while the team applies aggressive pressure? If he doesn't, why show him at the base of midfield and call him the primary DM? If he is always at the base of midfield, De Jong is not the first function midfielder and is being misused. And why show a setup with a single pivot anyway, rather than a deeper midfield two?
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The point was that ten Hag accommodated de Jong by fine tuning Schone's role in the team where he was tasked with being a positionally more disciplined player. Because de Jong did make forays forward which meant Schone maintained structure and compactness. And I didn't say de Jong wasn't disciplined in his role, because he was.

And you're paying too much attention to how I put forth the 3 players in midfield and not how they would function as a midfield 3.

It's very simple how de Jong would function as the first function midfielder in the build up phase with Tchouameni and Hannibal in a 3 man midfield. De Jong would take up his position as the extra CB and Hannibal would drop next to Tchouameni to occupy the half spaces, and the space would then open up for the fullbacks who will be out wide. So what's happened here is simple, and that is that the team has transitioned from a 4-3-3 formation to a 3-4-3 formation in the first phase of the build up.
 
Adnan said:
The point was that ten Hag accommodated de Jong by fine tuning Schone's role in the team where he was tasked with being a positionally more disciplined player. Because de Jong did make forays forward which meant Schone maintained structure and compactness. And I didn't say de Jong wasn't disciplined in his role, because he was.

And you're paying too much attention to how I put forth the 3 players in midfield and not how they would function as a midfield 3.

It's very simple how de Jong would function as the first function midfielder in the build up phase with Tchouameni and Hannibal in a 3 man midfield. De Jong would take up his position as the extra CB and Hannibal would drop next to Tchouameni to occupy the half spaces, and the space would then open up for the fullbacks who will be out wide. So what's happened here is simple, and that is that the team has transitioned from a 4-3-3 formation to a 3-4-3 formation in the first phase of the build up.
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We’re not signing Tchouameni anyway
 
sherrinford said:
Incorrect. De Jong was the deepest midfielder, Van de Beek the most advanced, Schone in between. 4-2-3-1.
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Incorrect, you are clearly mistaken. But it's okay that you're wrong, it happens sometimes, but please don't go spreading lies.
You're right that De Jong dropped between the defenders sometimes. But when Schone played, he was the 6. FDJ played as a defender in that season and as a 6 when Schone wasn't playing. Maybe you're confusing those times with the times that Schone and De Jong both played. But when Schone played, he was the 6.
 
Terranova said:
Incorrect, you are clearly mistaken. But it's okay that you're wrong, it happens sometimes, but please don't go spreading lies.
You're right that De Jong dropped between the defenders sometimes. But when Schone played, he was the 6. FDJ played as a defender in that season and as a 6 when Schone wasn't playing. Maybe you're confusing those times with the times that Schone and De Jong both played. But when Schone played, he was the 6.
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Actually, it's pronounced "Ten Hack"

I bet you didnt know that :smirk:
 
Terranova said:
Incorrect, you are clearly mistaken. But it's okay that you're wrong, it happens sometimes, but please don't go spreading lies.
You're right that De Jong dropped between the defenders sometimes. But when Schone played, he was the 6. FDJ played as a defender in that season and as a 6 when Schone wasn't playing. Maybe you're confusing those times with the times that Schone and De Jong both played. But when Schone played, he was the 6.
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I'm referring to the 2019 Champions League knockout round games. De Jong and Schone played as a pair, but De Jong was the deepest midfielder. It was a very memorable side. Played fantastic football. Fearless. Anyhoo De Jong was the no.6. Describing Van de Beek as a no.8 is poor too, particularly when calling De Jong one.
 
sherrinford said:
I'm referring to the 2019 Champions League knockout round games. De Jong and Schone played as a pair, but De Jong was the deepest midfielder. It was a very memorable side. Played fantastic football. Fearless. Anyhoo De Jong was the no.6. Describing Van de Beek as a no.8 is poor too, particularly when calling De Jong one.
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I'm also referring to the knockout games. As an Ajax fan, i've seen every match they played the past 20 years. The fact that you are wrong isn't a problem. The fact that you can't see that you're wrong and continuing to post wrong thing is.
De Jong wasn't the 6(not that Ajax played with a conventional 6 anyway). De Jong was an 8, like VDB was an 8.

You know that a midfield 3 can consist of multiples of a type right? There are sides with 2 DM's, sides with 1 dm, 1 cm and 1 am. So many options. But the Ajax team consisted of 3 cm's. 1 deeper one(Schone) and 2 8s(VDB and De Jong, with VDB being the more attacking one). Not a single DM in that team, but it really worked because all 3 midfielders knew what they had to do to make it work. Schone was an attacking midfielder/winger, no way it should've worked, but it did. That is something we can hope Ten Hag gets working here. VDB fits into that system and if we also got De Jong, it's gonna be great.
 
I've only seen him mainly in the Dutch side, in Euros, and when he was at Ajax, not much in Barca. I like his energy gets around the pitch very well, has a good pass, and likes possession, so if that's how ETH goes then its a good fit. And by all accounts he's not In favour at Barca. Let's see
 
Hughie77 said:
I've only seen him mainly in the Dutch side, in Euros, and when he was at Ajax, not much in Barca. I like his energy gets around the pitch very well, has a good pass, and likes possession, so if that's how ETH goes then its a good fit. And by all accounts he's not In favour at Barca. Let's see
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Would be a dream buy like getting Verratti, however don't see them selling despite the rumoured debt. Think this is all just hot air sadly, if there was any truth Romano, Whitwell, Ducker would be talking it up.
 
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Terranova said:
Incorrect, you are clearly mistaken. But it's okay that you're wrong, it happens sometimes, but please don't go spreading lies.
You're right that De Jong dropped between the defenders sometimes. But when Schone played, he was the 6. FDJ played as a defender in that season and as a 6 when Schone wasn't playing. Maybe you're confusing those times with the times that Schone and De Jong both played. But when Schone played, he was the 6.
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I'd say Schone was the 6 and FDJ played sweeper, 6 and 8 at the same time basically. Sort of like if uh a young Roy Keane was partnered with like I dunno, who sits still and passes mostly but doesn't drop into a defensive 3 much? Kroos?
 
NoPace said:
I'd say Schone was the 6 and FDJ played sweeper, 6 and 8 at the same time basically. Sort of like if uh a young Roy Keane was partnered with like I dunno, who sits still and passes mostly but doesn't drop into a defensive 3 much? Kroos?
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Kinda yes, De Jong was the defensive 8 and VDB the attacking 8. So one between 6 and 8 and one between 8 and 10.
 
What are the actual chances of getting this guy do we think?

It's not an obvious upgrade in his career given our state, but if Barca are looking to sell and we dangle his favoured position and ETH in front of him? It seems a bit more probable than it ought to be. Not to mention we are one of a handful of clubs that can keep him on ridiculous wages.
 
Terranova said:
As an Ajax fan, i've seen every match they played the past 20 years. The fact that you are wrong isn't a problem. The fact that you can't see that you're wrong and continuing to post wrong thing is.
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Ah, I love this forum. Our fans telling fans of other clubs how their team actually played, while having only seen a handful of CL games of said team. Just mint. :lol:
 
If Barcelona want to sell then on paper this would seem a straightforward transfer to do thanks to the Ten Hag connection. Maybe they don't want to lose him though, Xavi certainly doesn't.
 
Why is this thread trending so much, why would they sell one of their best players who they would build around. Makes zero sense to hold hopes high for him. We should look elsewhere..
 
Terranova said:
Kinda yes, De Jong was the defensive 8 and VDB the attacking 8. So one between 6 and 8 and one between 8 and 10.
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I totally agree on De Jong, but you wouldn't call VDB in that run a 10? I guess Lampard was seen as an 8 by some but Ajax often pressed so high and VDB did much of his best work near the edge of the box.
 
Poborsky's hair said:
Why is this thread trending so much, why would they sell one of their best players who they would build around. Makes zero sense to hold hopes high for him. We should look elsewhere..
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They'd sell him because they're a billion dollars in debt. The real question is, does he want to come here? The answer is no.
 
Terranova said:
I'm also referring to the knockout games. As an Ajax fan, i've seen every match they played the past 20 years. The fact that you are wrong isn't a problem. The fact that you can't see that you're wrong and continuing to post wrong thing is.
De Jong wasn't the 6(not that Ajax played with a conventional 6 anyway). De Jong was an 8, like VDB was an 8.

You know that a midfield 3 can consist of multiples of a type right? There are sides with 2 DM's, sides with 1 dm, 1 cm and 1 am. So many options. But the Ajax team consisted of 3 cm's. 1 deeper one(Schone) and 2 8s(VDB and De Jong, with VDB being the more attacking one). Not a single DM in that team, but it really worked because all 3 midfielders knew what they had to do to make it work. Schone was an attacking midfielder/winger, no way it should've worked, but it did. That is something we can hope Ten Hag gets working here. VDB fits into that system and if we also got De Jong, it's gonna be great.
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I'm not wrong. In those games De Jong was clearly the deepest midfielder, Van de Beek clearly the most advanced, and the overall shape of the midfield clearly most accurately described as a deeper midfield two behind said advanced midfielder - 4-2-3-1, 2-1 midfield formation, midfield triangle with the point forward, two no.6s behind a no.10, two no.8s behind a no.10, two no.6s behind a no.8. Any of these descriptions give a reasonable idea of the general shape of that side. Don't mistake the grouping of De Jong and Schone together as meaning it wasn't easy to see who the deeper operator was though, as it was.

Having watched so much of your side, it's perfectly understandable that you misremember one particular iteration. Or it's OK if you can't comprehend that the deepest midfielder is still allowed to seize an opportunity to drive forward with the ball in order to progress the play.

NoLogo said:
Ah, I love this forum. Our fans telling fans of other clubs how their team actually played, while having only seen a handful of CL games of said team. Just mint. :lol:
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Why would I need to watch more than the Champions League knockout games of that side in order to know how they played in the Champions League knockout games? Surely you wouldn't disregard what you have seen with your own two eyes because someone else said it wasn't so?
 
Yagami said:
I actually think a Pogba-Frenkie swap would be the most beneficial. We finally get a press resistant midfielder who can control games, and Barca get an 8 which is what they want, and it gives Pogba more attacking freedom, too.

Been saying it for ages, mate. There's 3 elite press resistant 6s out there. Verratti is a no go. Frenkie is an uncertainty. Arthur is 100% doable.

Arthur is 100% leaving Juventus and his most likely destination is England. Arsenal, Newcastle or Spurs it seems. He almost joined Arsenal on loan in January but Arsenal didn't want the obligation to buy. We should be all over this, but I don't think we will be.

I know I'm in the minority but he's too lightweight for my liking.
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There's a lot wrong with what you have written here. First pogba is out of contract in the summer. There's no swapping him anywhere. If BARCA want pogba all they have to do is ring raiola. United have 0 say in the matter.

Secondly, Arthur is an awful CM. To compare him to verrati is like comparing messi to zaha because they both "dribble". Arthur is an awful defender, doesn't progress play and he's not decisive in the final third. He's literally a player that's "pretty" on the ball. Nothing more.

And if you think frenkie will struggle in the EPL then you're in for a shock with arthur.
 
RedRonaldo said:
We are likely to sign Antony for 50m as ETH really rates him. Adding to that one top midfield signing for 60m (FDJ or Tchouameni), we need another midfielder for less (maybe Kamara for free?), and one forward signing for 60m (Nkunku or Nunez).

Well if we manage to get Kamara for free, we can have funds to add another defender, which we badly need as our defence has been shocking this season.
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You're being incredibly optimistic with all those prices Antony will cost at least 60 mil. Ajax dont want to sell antony and it would take a mammoth offer to get him out. Both auriel and frenkie would cost at least 80 mil, simply because of the number of clubs interested, I.e PSG, madrid, city...etc. same goes for Nunez.
 
Cassidy said:
Everything I have read tells me he is not completely happy in Barca.
His agency have been sniffing around, and even his Dad came out and said they were speaking to clubs.
He is not playing in his preferred roll, and he is not completely happy at Barca, often being subbed or benched.

Saying that maybe he wants to stick it out for another season and see how it goes, but I think its clear he is not completely happy there.
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His dad actually came out and said he doesn't want to leave especially to united. And de Jong is about to clock 3000 minutes for the season he has absolutely played a lot of minutes this season. Xavi is trying to turn him into a more decisive player in the final third since he clearly doesn't have the discipline to be a DM. his progression numbers are elite, he's decent as a defender for a CM but if he wants to be truly elite he needs to be more involved in the final third. You can already see pedri doing it.
 
Sinbad the sailor said:
You're being incredibly optimistic with all those prices Antony will cost at least 60 mil. Ajax dont want to sell antony and it would take a mammoth offer to get him out. Both auriel and frenkie would cost at least 80 mil, simply because of the number of clubs interested, I.e PSG, madrid, city...etc. same goes for Nunez.
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That was before the 100-150m budget thing. I understand we now couldn’t make as many signings this summer. So it’s probably 50-60m for Antony (WF), another 50-60m for a CM/DM (hopefully De Jong) and another 40m for a CB (probably timber). I don’t know if we have enough funds to buy all 3 players for that price range, but I hope so.
 
Abraxas said:
What are the actual chances of getting this guy do we think?

It's not an obvious upgrade in his career given our state, but if Barca are looking to sell and we dangle his favoured position and ETH in front of him? It seems a bit more probable than it ought to be. Not to mention we are one of a handful of clubs that can keep him on ridiculous wages.
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Seems very low indeed. In the past he has laughed at playing in the EPL, he loves the city of Barcelona and sees himself as fitting for their style of play and Spanish football and doesn't want to leave. They're already bouncing back securing CL football, there's no oil clubs to squeeze them out so the first half or more of this thread and speculation was pure fantasy about the Barca slump and him needing to leave there and us a tempting option under Ole.

The only things boosting this is the so called debt which seems to be hard to determine what they're willing to cut short or finance for and perhaps other talented players being favoured and coming to the fore with Xavi. It's really down to Barca in wanting to sell, they fought hard with PSG to sign him. With ETH this gains a little more traction in us becoming an option but we'd be down the list. I'm sure Barca and Xavi see him as an important part of their future and the player is determined to be there and be a part of it.
 
Sinbad the sailor said:
There's a lot wrong with what you have written here. First pogba is out of contract in the summer. There's no swapping him anywhere. If BARCA want pogba all they have to do is ring raiola. United have 0 say in the matter.

Secondly, Arthur is an awful CM. To compare him to verrati is like comparing messi to zaha because they both "dribble". Arthur is an awful defender, doesn't progress play and he's not decisive in the final third. He's literally a player that's "pretty" on the ball. Nothing more.

And if you think frenkie will struggle in the EPL then you're in for a shock with arthur.
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Ahoy, cap'n!

Firstly, I know about Pogba. I was talking hypothetically like the person who initially quoted me.

Secondly, agree to disagree about Arthur. He's brilliant despite his weaknesses. The same weaknesses Verratti has.

Lastly, I don't think Frenkie would struggle in the PL at all and don't know where you got that idea from.
 
Ajaxsuarez said:
This isn't true. De Jong was 6. To accommodate him in his best role is literally the reason Ten Hag switched to that 'dubbele 6' system of his. VdB was the 'lopende 10'

https://www.voetbalprimeur.nl/nieuw...d-hij-het-beste-rendement-voor-de-ploeg-.html
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Call it what you want. But De Jong never was the 6 people here claim. Schone always was the deepest midfielder. Sure De Jong got more defensive responsibilities, but nowhere near where Schone played. Because De Jong also had the freedom to move up the field and "abandon" his position. So like i said here before, something between a 6 and an 8, with Schone being "the 6" .
Besides VDB wasn't the 10 and Ten Hag never claimed that either in that interview.
 
izec said:
The name is still there. Ten Hag is the big factor though.
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He is only a 10 hag though, and I'm pretty sure thats underage.

Jokes aside, there has been some positive developments, it's to be seen.
 
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