Insane how his stock has dropped, people are oh so quick to write off players that have actually showed top-class levels. Barring injury, the guy has been absolutely class for a good 3-5 seasons straight in whatever team.
He's been poor this season sure, and lets see if he can fight back to get back to form but calling him average/overrated/overpriced, completely absurd, re-writing history, just absurd.
I'm not sure we'll sign him without ten Hag being in the hot seat. But if ten Hag is the new head coach, then I hope we sign de Jong. He's lost his way a little at a club which has been badly financially mismanaged. But I think he has the potential of having a similar impact as Sneijder/Robben when they were deemed surplus to requirements at Real Madrid, which in turn benefited Inter and Bayern.
There's a highlight reel of De Jong in there and he looks completely bereft of ideas and enthusiasm. Sure, he shows some silky touches but they come to little, most of them involve passing the back backwards anyway.
I want de Jong here- but its crazy how he can be 24 and such an average player for Barcelona, not winning anything and hardly having good performances - yet he gets the love whilst our players don't.
He was that good, yes — which is why practically every major club was interested in him, and Barcelona had to pay over the odds (in terms of a ridiculously inflated wage package) to seal the deal. He's not particularly good at this moment in time, but the things that made him good in the past didn't dematerialize and can be salvaged as he's still young-ish for a central midfielder. Sometimes a highly anticipated transfer (that makes perfect sense in theory) just doesn't work out for the concerned parties, irregardless of how good the player supposedly is — and them seeking pastures anew to reignite their internal spark is perhaps the best course of action.
Consider four former Ajax players, from a longer list that we don't need to delve into for the purposes of this thread: Denis Bergkamp was a disappointment for Internazionale teams that finished 13th and 6th in Serie A but emerged as one of the best forwards of the Premier League era at Arsenal, Edwin van der Sar was presumed to be a consistent presence in goal for Juventus but was ousted in just a couple of seasons and later found great success at United, Patrick Kluivert failed to impress with Milan but redeemed himself at Barcelona (where he was initially reunited with van Gaal), Wesley Sneijder was deemed surplus to need at Madrid but propelled Internazionale to a treble and was a Ballon D'Or contender in only his first season. There are other, unrelated examples too: Michael Laudrup couldn't emerge as the successor to Platini's throne at Juventus but was a world-beater at Barcelona (and subsequently Madrid), Thierry Henry's promise couldn't be fulfilled at Juventus (partly because he had some commonalities with del Piero) but he established himself as the greatest Premier League player of them all at Arsenal, et cetera.
If United's management is of the belief that de Jong can be rehabilitated to the dazzling standard that he evidenced in the 2018—19 (particularly in the European Cup), then we should definitely explore the possibility of a transfer from Barcelona (who're in a precarious financial situation and might want to reinvest elsewhere under Xavi by getting rid of de Jong's albatross contract). Like, we regularly trot out McTominay (who tries but is rather limited in a technical comparison) and will lose Pogba in the coming months — the squad definitely needs an injection of quality and press-resistance in the center of the park. Then, if the deal goes through, it would be up to us to restore Frenkie's confidence and put him in favorable positions/roles (like Wenger did with Bergkamp, Cruyff with Laudrup, Mourinho with Sneijder).
Mind you, de Jong has a peculiar skill set and is not everyone's cup of tea: he's not a grizzled battler but can effectively sweep in the defensive third, he's not the most creative as a pure passer but can effortlessly skip through the opposition's organisation as a ball carrier, he's a bit selfish in terms of monopolizing the ball but also multi-functional and a great all-round asset to the team under a suitable coach, and so forth. And we have to be consider his complementarity with young Mejbri as well, as they have some overlapping qualities. Any prospective transfer might be nonviable unless we devise a plan to put him in a near-ideal environment (which we didn't when we signed the likes of Pogba, Di María or van de Beek...who reached their peaks in niche roles with Juventus, Madrid and Ajax) or appoint ten Hag (who got the best out of Frenkie's characteristics and made him the focal point of his team's organisation with the freedom to drop into defense to progress the ball). If we choose to adhere to Rangnick's principles (or appoint another coach of his ilk to lead the club for the foreseeable future), then we should probably look elsewhere as some of Frenkie's most prominent and unique qualities might be blunted under an unrelenting regiment.
Ralf still playing McFred and the caf is wondering if F De Jong is good enough. The irony...
I can safely say F de Jong is one of the best, if not the best midfielder in the world in his preferred position. The fact that he's not performing now all boils down to Messi leaving and all expectations of pulling the Barca wagon has pretty much fallen down on him. He was the highest € valued La Liga player at some point at the end of last season. No single person playing football now could save the shit show that is Barcelona at the moment.
Correct, also, it's good he ponders over the shit weather before moving. Would be awful for everyone involved if he discovers he hates the weather after a transfer.
I get your sentiment, but he's Dutch... he knows full well what inclement weather is like... probably why he wants to avoid it!
There's also the matter of having sampled the good life and living conditions, he wants to maintain them.
Bad weather being part and parcel of a job is one thing, but if there are options, and you don't like bad weather, you're obviously going to go to a preferred destination. De Jong's problem, however, is he can't go to Madrid and Italy is a dead end. He's left with Paris or England, neither of which comes close to Barcelona where weather is concerned.
If he leaves Barcelona, he doesn't have much choice but to go to one of 5 clubs all in the aforementioned destinations.
He was that good, yes — which is why practically every major club was interested in him, and Barcelona had to pay over the odds (in terms of a ridiculously inflated wage package) to seal the deal. He's not particularly good at this moment in time, but the things that made him good in the past didn't dematerialize and can be salvaged as he's still young-ish for a central midfielder. Sometimes a highly anticipated transfer (that makes perfect sense in theory) just doesn't work out for the concerned parties, irregardless of how good the player supposedly is — and them seeking pastures anew to reignite their internal spark is perhaps the best course of action.
Consider four former Ajax players, from a longer list that we don't need to delve into for the purposes of this thread: Denis Bergkamp was a disappointment for Internazionale teams that finished 13th and 6th in Serie A but emerged as one of the best forwards of the Premier League era at Arsenal, Edwin van der Sar was presumed to be a consistent presence in goal for Juventus but was ousted in just a couple of seasons and later found great success at United, Patrick Kluivert failed to impress with Milan but redeemed himself at Barcelona (where he was initially reunited with van Gaal), Wesley Sneijder was deemed surplus to need at Madrid but propelled Internazionale to a treble and was a Ballon D'Or contender in only his first season. There are other, unrelated examples too: Michael Laudrup couldn't emerge as the successor to Platini's throne at Juventus but was a world-beater at Barcelona (and subsequently Madrid), Thierry Henry's promise couldn't be fulfilled at Juventus (partly because he had some commonalities with del Piero) but he established himself as the greatest Premier League player of them all at Arsenal, et cetera.
If United's management is of the belief that de Jong can be rehabilitated to the dazzling standard that he evidenced in the 2018—19 (particularly in the European Cup), then we should definitely explore the possibility of a transfer from Barcelona (who're in a precarious financial situation and might want to reinvest elsewhere under Xavi by getting rid of de Jong's albatross contract). Like, we regularly trot out McTominay (who tries but is rather limited in a technical comparison) and will lose Pogba in the coming months — the squad definitely needs an injection of quality and press-resistance in the center of the park. Then, if the deal goes through, it would be up to us to restore Frenkie's confidence and put him in favorable positions/roles (like Wenger did with Bergkamp, Cruyff with Laudrup, Mourinho with Sneijder).
Mind you, de Jong has a peculiar skill set and is not everyone's cup of tea: he's not a grizzled battler but can effectively sweep in the defensive third, he's not the most creative as a pure passer but can effortlessly skip through the opposition's organisation as a ball carrier, he's a bit selfish in terms of monopolizing the ball but also multi-functional and a great all-round asset to the team under a suitable coach, and so forth. And we have to be consider his complementarity with young Mejbri as well, as they have some overlapping qualities. Any prospective transfer might be nonviable unless we devise a plan to put him in a near-ideal environment (which we didn't when we signed the likes of Pogba, Di María or van de Beek...who reached their peaks in niche roles with Juventus, Madrid and Ajax) or appoint ten Hag (who got the best out of Frenkie's characteristics and made him the focal point of his team's organisation with the freedom to drop into defense to progress the ball). If we choose to adhere to Rangnick's principles (or appoint another coach of his ilk to lead the club for the foreseeable future), then we should probably look elsewhere as some of Frenkie's most prominent and unique qualities might be blunted under an unrelenting regiment.
Great post and the truth of it is I don't think he would suit us, great player but is that hybrid again between the 8's and 6's that suits a system with 3 midfielders for me (Where 1 is a #6 and the other 2 are hybrids, a bit like PP played at Juve)
Ralf still playing McFred and the caf is wondering if F De Jong is good enough. The irony...
I can safely say F de Jong is one of the best, if not the best midfielder in the world in his preferred position. The fact that he's not performing now all boils down to Messi leaving and all expectations of pulling the Barca wagon has pretty much fallen down on him. He was the highest € valued La Liga player at some point at the end of last season. No single person playing football now could save the shit show that is Barcelona at the moment.
Insane how his stock has dropped, people are oh so quick to write off players that have actually showed top-class levels. Barring injury, the guy has been absolutely class for a good 3-5 seasons straight in whatever team.
He's been poor this season sure, and lets see if he can fight back to get back to form but calling him average/overrated/overpriced, completely absurd, re-writing history, just absurd.
Ralf still playing McFred and the caf is wondering if F De Jong is good enough. The irony...
I can safely say F de Jong is one of the best, if not the best midfielder in the world in his preferred position. The fact that he's not performing now all boils down to Messi leaving and all expectations of pulling the Barca wagon has pretty much fallen down on him. He was the highest € valued La Liga player at some point at the end of last season. No single person playing football now could save the shit show that is Barcelona at the moment.
He is a really modest guy who won't speak out against a trainer or something.
You can see by the way he is currently playing his confidence is not top. This is - I think - due to him being played massively out of position and strenghts (way higher up the field in stead of being involved early in build-up) for such a long time now. He is being played in a position where he isnt able to show whát makes him so special.
So Im probably amongst the biggest Frenkie fans out there, and I think as a deep play maker is is absolute word class.. You wont find more press resistent players out there.. However - the way he is beind played now at Barca - in a role where he is hardly included in build-up and its expected of him to make deep runs into the box, there are much much better players then him.
I just hate him seeing so misused at Barca for such a long time. You see it affecting his self-esteem, confidence in a way that he is starting to make simple simple mistakes as well..
He is a really modest guy who won't speak out against a trainer or something.
You can see by the way he is currently playing his confidence is not top. This is - I think - due to him being played massively out of position and strenghts (way higher up the field in stead of being involved early in build-up) for such a long time now. He is being played in a position where he isnt able to show whát makes him so special.
So Im probably amongst the biggest Frenkie fans out there, and I think as a deep play maker is is absolute word class.. You wont find more press resistent players out there.. However - the way he is beind played now at Barca - in a role where he is hardly included in build-up and its expected of him to make deep runs into the box, there are much much better players then him.
I just hate him seeing so misused at Barca for such a long time. You see it affecting his self-esteem, confidence in a way that he is starting to make simple simple mistakes as well..
He is a really modest guy who won't speak out against a trainer or something.
You can see by the way he is currently playing his confidence is not top. This is - I think - due to him being played massively out of position and strenghts (way higher up the field in stead of being involved early in build-up) for such a long time now. He is being played in a position where he isnt able to show whát makes him so special.
So Im probably amongst the biggest Frenkie fans out there, and I think as a deep play maker is is absolute word class.. You wont find more press resistent players out there.. However - the way he is beind played now at Barca - in a role where he is hardly included in build-up and its expected of him to make deep runs into the box, there are much much better players then him.
I just hate him seeing so misused at Barca for such a long time. You see it affecting his self-esteem, confidence in a way that he is starting to make simple simple mistakes as well..
Thanks for the replies. I have to say it's quite surreal to see one of those nailed on as a 'sure thing' having such a torrid time after making his dream move to a club who are supposed to 'get' players, particularly midfielders, but then, they have Busquets, who is an institution, and they won't have him usurped or replaced until he can no longer get around the pitch.
I was probably ill-informed myself, as I thought he'd comfortably slot into a deeper-sitting #8 role and be marauding from there and become a Neeskens-like legend for Barcelona. Of course, not playing in the same way as the great man, but putting his own style and flavour to that particular role, so it has been a bit of a surprise to note he must play, and sit, deeper and be allowed to make the decisions on when to break rank from there etc.
I don't know anything about the kid's character, so was curious to know how he's handling what must surely be the first bit of extensive criticism he's received as professional? Removing all of Pogba's fanfare and razzmatazz, fundamentally he's experienced the same at United - for the first time since being a full-fledged pro he's been scrutinised and pilloried for not performing in roles he'd always had support in to facilitate his game.
Has his performance level for the national team deviated at all, or has that plummeted with his club situation? I don't doubt the player... in some ways, but I think the coach he gets is just about the most important thing for him to consider as mis-understanding a player with the pseudo attributes apportioned to him, could easily see a career go to waste as he's forced as a square peg continuously into round holes.
Im not trying to do so.. He should do better there than he does in some games, despite his position...
But I do think the main reason why he isnt excelling there to the extent many hoped, is because of the position he is playing in.. They are expecting thing from him he was never really top at.. And he never gets in position to do the stuff where he was praised for so much at Ajax..
Thanks for the replies. I have to say it's quite surreal to see one of those nailed on as a 'sure thing' having such a torrid time after making his dream move to a club who are supposed to 'get' players, particularly midfielders, but then, they have Busquets, who is an institution, and they won't have him usurped or replaced until he can no longer get around the pitch.
I was probably ill-informed myself, as I thought he'd comfortably slot into a deeper-sitting #8 role and be marauding from there and become a Neeskens-like legend for Barcelona. Of course, not playing in the same way as the great man, but putting his own style and flavour to that particular role, so it has been a bit of a surprise to note he must play, and sit, deeper and be allowed to make the decisions on when to break rank from there etc.
I don't know anything about the kid's character, so was curious to know how he's handling what must surely be the first bit of extensive criticism he's received as professional? Removing all of Pogba's fanfare and razzmatazz, fundamentally he's experienced the same at United - for the first time since being a full-fledged pro he's been scrutinised and pilloried for not performing in roles he'd always had support in to facilitate his game.
Has his performance level for the national team deviated at all, or has that plummeted with his club situation? I don't doubt the player... in some ways, but I think the coach he gets is just about the most important thing for him to consider as mis-understanding a player with the pseudo attributes apportioned to him, could easily see a career go to waste as he's forced as a square peg continuously into round holes.
Very good post, in the recent period his form was worse for the Dutch NT as well. But you can still see his class but he is currently going through it. But the entire NT wasn't great I must say.
I think he was still top class the past 2 seasons but not enough to keep Barcelona as the force they once were, neither could Messi.
He should be performing better, even in this role but the lad is going through it right now and it seems like that's when the world wants to kick you down the most.
Insane how his stock has dropped, people are oh so quick to write off players that have actually showed top-class levels. Barring injury, the guy has been absolutely class for a good 3-5 seasons straight in whatever team.
He's been poor this season sure, and lets see if he can fight back to get back to form but calling him average/overrated/overpriced, completely absurd, re-writing history, just absurd.
It’s the internet, extremely annoying. KdB can be out for two months and struggle upon his return, some write him off as useless. At the same time; McTominay was out injured for a while and some built him up like some hybrid between Gerrard and Makelele. It’s ridiculous! De Jong is a fine player and will perform for top clubs his entire career, no doubt about it.
Great post and the truth of it is I don't think he would suit us, great player but is that hybrid again between the 8's and 6's that suits a system with 3 midfielders for me (Where 1 is a #6 and the other 2 are hybrids, a bit like PP played at Juve)
To be fair, United's identity (and specifically our tactical blueprint going forward) is still up in the air — like, what are we, and what are we going to be...right now, who knows? Rangnick is in the dugout for the time being and a lot of his smash-and-grab approaches would definitely be at odds with de Jong, but the former is supposed to be a stop-gap solution according to his original contract. If we appoint someone like ten Hag (who is rumored to be one of the candidates we're examining), Frenkie could become a straight-forward signing and no doubt someone who would suit us (by virtue of excelling under the new guy at his previous club).
He's not even particularly hard to accommodate in a team, it's just, um...a lot of his qualities clash with Busquets (or the emerging Nico González), which presents a conundrum for Barcelona. If he joins United, we would have to be very selective with any proposed holding or defensive midfield signings as he might clash with them and occupy similar spaces in front of the defense. Instead, we would have to find a complementary player to frequently pay attention to his positioning: like Karembeu at Madrid when they had Redondo (who also dropped deep to progress the ball and build up their play).
There are certainly some aspects of de Jong's profile that can be fairly questioned/criticized, and people are entitled to their subjective opinions, but this doesn't seem to be a carefully considered/worded argument. Especially when you take into account that Schneiderlin was the polar opposite of Frenkie in terms of what he brought to his team — as at his best, he was a technically middling work-horse who didn't offer much on the much on the ball...and instead pressed and hounded the ball-possessor (which is an inherently reactive way of playing the game). It's like claiming that we shouldn't look at Wirtz because remember Fellaini or shouldn't have targeted Sancho because remember Kagawa (without fleshing out the seemingly incoherent comparisons). Also, Schneiderlin mostly excelled at a lesser stage with Southampton (which raised some eyebrows even back then); and didn't impose his will vs. some of the best players and teams in the knockout stages of the European Cup to showcase his upper limits...
To be fair, United's identity (and specifically our tactical blueprint going forward) is still up in the air — like, what are we, and what are we going to be...right now, who knows? Rangnick is in the dugout for the time being and a lot of his smash-and-grab approaches would definitely be at odds with de Jong, but the former is supposed to be a stop-gap solution according to his original contract. If we appoint someone like ten Hag (who is rumored to be one of the candidates we're examining), Frenkie could become a straight-forward signing and no doubt someone who would suit us (by virtue of excelling under the new guy at his previous club).
He's not even particularly hard to accommodate in a team, it's just, um...a lot of his qualities clash with Busquets (or the emerging Nico González), which presents a conundrum for Barcelona. If he joins United, we would have to be very selective with any proposed holding or defensive midfield signings as he might clash with them and occupy similar spaces in front of the defense. Instead, we would have to find a complementary player to frequently pay attention to his positioning: like Karembeu at Madrid when they had Redondo (who also dropped deep to progress the ball and build up their play).
There are certainly some aspects of de Jong's profile that can be fairly questioned/criticized, and people are entitled to their subjective opinions, but this doesn't seem to be a carefully considered/worded argument. Especially when you take into account that Schneiderlin was the polar opposite of Frenkie in terms of what he brought to his team — as at his best, he was a technically middling work-horse who didn't offer much on the much on the ball...and instead pressed and hounded the ball-possessor (which is an inherently reactive way of playing the game). It's like claiming that we shouldn't look at Wirtz because remember Fellaini or shouldn't have targeted Sancho because remember Kagawa (without fleshing out the seemingly incoherent comparisons). Also, Schneiderlin mostly excelled at a lesser stage with Southampton (which raised some eyebrows even back then); and didn't impose his will vs. some of the best players and teams in the knockout stages of the European Cup to showcase his upper limits...
come on lads...just watch the video posted of him against Madrid and put McFred in that situation. Those two lads would shit themselves and turn the ball over again and again and again. He was damn near unpressable
Great post and the truth of it is I don't think he would suit us, great player but is that hybrid again between the 8's and 6's that suits a system with 3 midfielders for me (Where 1 is a #6 and the other 2 are hybrids, a bit like PP played at Juve)
Nope, he's a 6 and played in a 2 for Ajax. The issue currently is Barca are thinking exactly what you're thinking and will eventually drive him out of the club because of it.
