Then he signs anyway and becomes the latest albatross around our necks and an impossible problem for whoever the next manager is once ten Hag happens to be sacked.
Frenkie de Jong | The last muppeting lap
- Thread starter davidmichael
- Start date
- Status
The way De Jong would drop into the defensive line is very much an ordinary movement for the deepest midfielder to make. And obviously, I'm not disputing that De Jong took up positions in the backline and that Schone took position at the base of midfield when that happened, nor that both could be stationed in the same line in midfield when Ajax were in possession. Which is why the images are pointless - they do not counter anything as I acknowledge the existence of these situations.
You are focusing far too much on the connotations that come with the terms 'box to box' and 'deep lying playmaker'. At one time, Barcelona employed a similar movement to counter effective pressure from an opponents front two - Busquets dropped into the backline to create a back three with the two centre backs and Xavi took the pivot position in midfield, in order to find more space and time, and options, to progress play. Would you say Xavi was box to box? You absolutely could. Would you say he was a deep lying playmaker? You absolutely could. He was a second function midfielder. In those situations Xavi was required to operate as the link from defence into midfield, but at other times positioning himself in such a manner would have infringed on Busquets' function in the side.
My point is that, ultimately, De Jong is and was a first function midfielder, a no.6, a Busquets. And a second function midfielder is what De Jong requires next to him to play his natural game, and is the role Schone assumed in that Ajax side. And in that team, and inevitably in virtually any side, a second function midfielder will be required to position themselves to facilitate the first function midfielder operating as, well, a first function midfielder. Schone did - De Jong was always the player who primarily looked to be the first option for taking the ball off the centre backs.
1). Yes I agree which is why you have to do smart business. Free transfers, players with a year left on their contract. Clubs that need funds
2) I agree nothing is guaranteed he could be crap. But it’s never as bad as it seems. There are plenty examples of clubs taking a year to get back on their feet. When Klopp came in despite the new long process they speak of. He managed to get to a Europa league final in half a season. Then top 4 in a full season. We aren’t as bad as them and we have more money. So like Ralf has said and probably thinks behind closed doors, this team should be looking to replace Chelsea next season(I said should!!)
3) You make sense and are right. But knowing that the Glazers don’t actually run the club the main figures have left. That being the CEO, the chief Negotiator and the Manager/s. That alone will bring change. Maybe not straight away and maybe not positive. But there will be a change.
I really can see this lasting 2 season and by that I mean us being a serious team again.
1). Yes I agree which is why you have to do smart business. Free transfers, players with a year left on their contract. Clubs that need funds
2) I agree nothing is guaranteed he could be crap. But it’s never as bad as it seems. There are plenty examples of clubs taking a year to get back on their feet. When Klopp came in despite the new long process they speak of. He managed to get to a Europa league final in half a season. Then top 4 in a full season. We aren’t as bad as them and we have more money. So like Ralf has said and probably thinks behind closed doors, this team should be looking to replace Chelsea next season(I said should!!)
3) You make sense and are right. But knowing that the Glazers don’t actually run the club the main figures have left. That being the CEO, the chief Negotiator and the Manager/s. That alone will bring change. Maybe not straight away and maybe not positive. But there will be a change.
I really can see this lasting 2 season and by that I mean us being a serious team again.
Well I hope you are right, would love nothing more than it working out for us with ten Hag.
Nah, he will be fine, as long as we don't hire a park the bus manager or someone that only tells the players to go out and express themselves..
I’m not sure I agree with this point. In fact I think in general it’s a buyers market. Obviously at the top end transfer fees are going up (Grealish, Mbappe etc) but across Europe there’s a lot of teams under pressure to sell because of Covid. Even a team like Barceona will be seeking quality players under market value. Nico Schlotterbeck, one of the hottest defensive talents around, went to Dortmund for €20m. There’s value out there but United tend to go for the ego boosting signings like Rice, Ronaldo, Pogba instead of building foundations with sensible signings.
The reason why I am focusing far too much on connotations that come with the terms 'box to box' and 'deep lying playmaker' is because the discussion started with argument of what type of midfielder's role that should play next to FDJ if ETH plays the same midfield system as Ajax 18/19 season. I said more deep-lying playmaker or deep-lying midfielder, while you made the argument to against that that it should be more box to box. You are either forgetting the purpose of the argument or you are just purposely ignoring it after being proven wrong about Schone's role.
The argument wasn't about Barcelona of Busquets and Xavi but the argument was about replicating Ajax 18//19 with FDJ and Schone in midfield. Ajax 18/19 didn't play the same midfield system as Barcelona era of Busquets, Xavi, and Iniesta so it makes zero sense to use that into this discussion since I didn't talk about different system. I was just using Ajax 18/19 as reference in the line-up that I posted originally and that's why I used someone who is more deep-lying midfielder type rather than box to box or no 8 type playing in Schone's role to replicate that Ajax 18/19 season.
If this is true, this is getting very close then because this is where the manager will tell the player that we can't keep you due to our financial problem. I don't see how Xavi wants to meet FDJ just to tell him ''you stay'' when it wasn't FDJ's intention to leave Barcelona.
I don't think you can actually compare Bundesliga transfers with Bundesliga to PL transfers, the PL has way more money and so prices go up whenever a PL club comes knocking. Even with Barca under pressure to sell, they won't do it under market value, otherwise it's not going to do them much good with helping in their financial situation. You will see it's a hard market and players who currently are valued at 20-30M will cost 40-60M if we come knocking.
Of course there's a United tax but do you think if United had hypothetically come in at the last minute and bid €25mn, Freiburg would have asked for €60mn when they could lose an additional €5m over what they were originally willing to sell him for.
Our transfer negotiations have been tragic in the last decade. Woodward and Judge would leak they were interested in a player, say they wouldn't pay X sum for the player (pissing the selling club off and creating bad will as they did with Dortmund), draw it out until the final days of the window and end up paying X+Y% on the final day and congratulating themselves on a job well done if though the coach has no time to integrate the player into the team before the season has started. If there is genuine jeopardy that United might withdraw and move on to the next target as so many clubs do, then the selling clubs leverage reduces.
“Frenkie, I know there are a lot of rumours swirling around and I just want to set your mind at ease. I’m not going to let you leave this football club. I need you here. On another, unrelated matter, we’re implementing a new payment system for the five a side lights. We’ve run the numbers and your share comes to €80m. Let us know how you want to pay. Card, bank transfer, PayPal, even Bitcoin is fine.
The only think Xavi will tell him is "it's out of my hands ".
Yes, I Agree100%. We should be hunting down bargains for young players.
There is plenty out there that are affordable and willing to move to premiership.
This feels one of those ones where it’s all being played out in the media for posturing for Barcelona to save face, but it’s done really.
Dembele is a really interesting one option for us on the right too, I wonder where he goes.
Considering his talent for picking up injuries, it really doesn’t strike me as a good idea to bring him to the premier league.
Bayern seem to be sniffing around him if he doesn't end up renewing with Barca.
I'd give him a look as well if I were the club given our need at RW and the lack of transfer fee required for him.
Can't imagine Ajax would also sell us Antony if the Timber rumors are true and Raphinha seems nailed on for Barca. Dembele would be an exciting option
I see the logic, and it’s totally sound, but I just see the fact that there’s barely any top talent wingers out there who can comfortably play on the right side and it makes me want to take that risk. The fact that he’s a free transfer helps a bit too.
I do think he’ll probably end up at PSG, though. Would be a bit scary if he links up at Chelsea with Tuchel again, like us, they could massively use his sheer pace and dribbling ability in their attack.
This is what I want too.
I don’t particularly rate Dembele that high as a 100mil+ player but I think players like him shouldn’t be just brushed away when they are on the free either.
Getting De Jong and Dembele for approx 60million Euros isn’t exactly a joke. Our wage structure is all over the place anyway, Dembele is just going to make that continue because it’s not going to get better. Might as well utelise it.
I think Frenkie will be done. They have had plenty of opportunities to lay this to bed.
It will gather pace as soon as their season is over.
It will gather pace as soon as their season is over.
No, come on, this is ridiculous. Has nobody learned any lessons from the last decade? Wages matter and not just for the obvious reasons of 'can we afford to pay this person'. It sets a benchmark for all other wages. If Dembele is on 300k pw but is constantly injured or playing badly, then every player that is outperforming him, has a right to expect similar wages or higher upon contract renewal. The ones that don't get it get pissed off, the ones that do get it can't be shifted if they underperform. There is very good reasons to have sensible wage structures. Can't have 30 Alexis Sanchez's running around where we literally have to pay out their contracts in order to move them on.
Also, fans are constantly and rightfully complaining about the lack of effort, professionalism of our current crop of players. Dembele has had persistent issues in this regard since he came on the scene. Coupled with his woeful injury record, I wouldn't touch him with a bargepole unless the salary was in the too good to turn down space. Sickeningly talented individual who is likely not going to reach a fraction of his potential.
- Joined
- Sep 1, 2015
- Messages
- 18,287
- Supports
️
The fact they haven’t come out and said he’s staying 100% and keep referring to their economic situation tells everything we need to know.
He will be sold. Realistically Barca should be looking for £50-55m for him.
He will be sold. Realistically Barca should be looking for £50-55m for him.
Yeah, they're probably sweating that he will refuse but will give it the big un looking for £70mn. The figures you say would be very palatable for United and that's what they should aim for. Barca just aren't in a position to drive a hard bargain so we should exploit it as much as possible if FDJ is on board.
We need to sell players first. Maybe next week we will see some moves.
- Joined
- Sep 1, 2015
- Messages
- 18,287
- Supports
- ️
It feels a big enough fee to represent his relative quality in a post covid environment and considering Barcelona’s financial position I think anything north of £60m is asking a bit too much.
I think you’re right they’re probably holding out for closer to £70m as I don’t think any Barcelona fan would be annoyed by that sale at that price given Gavi and Pedri coming through and the potential to sign Soler at a cut price. I don’t think we should pay it though because De Jong is a risk still he’s a terrific player but he’s not pushed on as expected.
Most recent reports suggest Ten Hag has £120m as well as whatever he recoups in sales.
Agree with this basically he's off, but who knows where?
Is that quoting the tweet from much earlier in the week and noises have been promising over yhe last 24h?
No Xavi spoke earlier today and addressed a host of topics during Barca's final press conference of the season
I read that but will wait and see if it's true. We could get another 120million in sales.
- Joined
- Sep 1, 2015
- Messages
- 18,287
- Supports
- ️
I don’t think any other club has such a need for him as United.
City are well stocked in CM even if Gundogan departs, I don’t see him at Liverpool (more likely they move for a Bellingham/Tchouameni type player) and then around Europe no big club could afford his fee.
Probably down to the player, stay at Barca or go to us.
96% done
This is happening.
That wasn't my argument. Kamara seems to be described as a no.6 - my belief is that De Jong should be played alongside a no.8 rather than a no.6 and that that was the case at Ajax that season. A no.8 is, naturally, more of a box to box player than a no.6. I brought up Xavi because he is a no.8 who can be described as a deep lying midfielder. De Jong would be better complimented by a Xavi, Modric, Scholes, Veron, Seedorf, Verratti, Rakitic, Dembele, Sahin or Gundogan than he would a Pirlo, Busquets, Xabi Alonso, Thiago Motta, Jorginho, Rodri, Carrick or Pjanic.
What makes you confident
- Status