Neither are good enough.
Fred vs McTominay
- Thread starter sullydnl
- Start date
McTominay is a championship level midfielder - the too much grit, too little quality type - who can fill the home-grown quota at a higher level by playing the odd game here and there until someone more useful will rise through the ranks and send him to Sunderland, Stoke or wherever.
Fred is a midtable level midfielder - the type you watch against your team and other big clubs in games where there's a lot of frantic running and desperate defending, and you think he could do a job - whom any top club with a proper scouting system in place wouldn't even look at.
They're both too inadequate on the ball for the build-up to go through them and too useless to have an impact higher up the pitch. There will be days, like yesterday, when you will get mad at McT's disappearing acts and wish for Fred to be on the pitch because the latter would, at the very least, show up for the ball. Until Fred gets a run of games and you start thinking that acknowledging your own limitations, leaving the ball-making decisions to others in our case, is a rather unappreciated quality in people.
Fred is a midtable level midfielder - the type you watch against your team and other big clubs in games where there's a lot of frantic running and desperate defending, and you think he could do a job - whom any top club with a proper scouting system in place wouldn't even look at.
They're both too inadequate on the ball for the build-up to go through them and too useless to have an impact higher up the pitch. There will be days, like yesterday, when you will get mad at McT's disappearing acts and wish for Fred to be on the pitch because the latter would, at the very least, show up for the ball. Until Fred gets a run of games and you start thinking that acknowledging your own limitations, leaving the ball-making decisions to others in our case, is a rather unappreciated quality in people.
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Fred is plenty good enough. McTominay is useless, and already, regardless of whatever happens in his career from here on - one of the luckiest footballers ever. If he was released by United at 20 and joined Charlton Athletic, not ONE poster on here would have batted an eyelid.
We know how to use Fred to make him effective. I don't know how to use McTominay to make him effective, he sometimes has good games in B2B role but it would be easy to replace him with better quality player.
Well said.
I've said this for years that McTominay wouldn't look out of place in the Burnley team. I genuinely don't know how he's played so many games at this level?
Fred is a much superior player although still not good enough for a top Premier league team.
McT would be one of the best players in the league, if he played in the Greek Super League. But he's not PL material, not even for rotation.
At the start of the season, when there was no Casemiro and we had to play who's available. One of these two jokers actually did a job and even when we lost the first 2 games looked semi capable, and that guy was not Fred that is for sure. MCT did semi decent jobs in the games afterwards and I will say again, was USEFUL nothing more. 3 months after, one good game and 2-3 small solid cameos from Fred and now it's the other way around. It's probably in margins and based on people's definition of useful, but both should be shipped off that is for sure, Fred IMO is terrible and 90% of the time useless. McT a little less so.
Fred is obviously better. He's better at football, more mobile, positionally better, gets on the ball more.
I mean how is this even a debate? Fred's big weakness is he gets bullied by physical opponents and is too erratic to be reliable, but he's a decent footballer.
Mctominay has the physicality over him but that's about it....and even that's a bit of a mute point as you rarely see Mctominay use his physicality or get involved enough in the game for it to matter. I mean I like Mctominay but he's not someone United would ever sign from another club, if we're brutally honest. The hope for me was always that he'd improve and impose himself on games more, but that's not happened and its getting a bit late to expect it to.
Don't think it's much to do with tactics or the manager either, as the sort of manager who'd favour Mctominay is also the sort that would end up having the team in 11th place.
I mean how is this even a debate? Fred's big weakness is he gets bullied by physical opponents and is too erratic to be reliable, but he's a decent footballer.
Mctominay has the physicality over him but that's about it....and even that's a bit of a mute point as you rarely see Mctominay use his physicality or get involved enough in the game for it to matter. I mean I like Mctominay but he's not someone United would ever sign from another club, if we're brutally honest. The hope for me was always that he'd improve and impose himself on games more, but that's not happened and its getting a bit late to expect it to.
Don't think it's much to do with tactics or the manager either, as the sort of manager who'd favour Mctominay is also the sort that would end up having the team in 11th place.
Let's be honest here, if you have seen as much from Fred as you did since we have signed him, would you sign him again? Never mind for the fee we did.
Between them they’ll have made 400 appearances for us soon which is crazy given their ability and performances.
The stats highlight how Mctominay just isn’t fit for purpose, Fred is better but also hard to see how his role won’t be reduced if we strengthen midfield as expected.
The stats highlight how Mctominay just isn’t fit for purpose, Fred is better but also hard to see how his role won’t be reduced if we strengthen midfield as expected.
You are talking about agendas
Stats show you feck all without context. One of them is usually played with Casemiro as a partner the other one is played as a replacement partnered with Eriksen like for example yesterday.
Those stats are last 365 days. Neither Casemiro nor Eriksen were at the club last season.
Fred vs McTominay is a sad indictment of our midfield recruitment. Neither should be seen as having a long term role at United.
There is no midfielder at the level of either at clubs like Bayern, Barcelona or Madrid. There are subs at those clubs who would start for us next to Casemiro in midfield. That's the kind of depth we should have.
Considering we spent £50m on Fred its shocking how thin our squad is.
There is no midfielder at the level of either at clubs like Bayern, Barcelona or Madrid. There are subs at those clubs who would start for us next to Casemiro in midfield. That's the kind of depth we should have.
Considering we spent £50m on Fred its shocking how thin our squad is.
They have been here for half of that period even if that is true.
So? How many games have McFred started/finished this season? Now compare to last season.
If anything McT’s stats have been improved by this season, because he hit some of the best form we’ve ever seen from him earlier this season.
The stats couldn’t be more conclusive. He’s the inferior player. Which is equally obvious from watching the two of them play. That’s why your opinion here is a complete outlier.
So what? You blubber crap, what significance it has how many they have started and finished together this season. The ones they did McT was levels above and you can go and post the stats from those games. But since Casemiro cemented his place, Fred has featured more and in more of his natural role unlike McT who was played as a number 10/striker against Palace for example.
My opinion is clearly based on more than the last 5 games. As I said in another thread a good game against City in which we scrapped a win, and all of a sudden there is an influx of "unbiased" Fred supporters who try and ride the wave about how useful he is and writing off the first 15 games of the season.
And one other thing, we all forget that McT just like Fred is a better B2B midfielder than a DMF. But the majority of you will use that as an excuse for Fred and a beating stick for the other.
Neither are good enough. If we are going to keep one then it should be McTominay to help with our HG quota, and to fill in at CB (or as a target man in really desperate times), and because he is young enough to still be coachable and have some resale value.
Both are average but Fred's energy and quick feet make him more useful in certain situations. McTominay offers nothing.
I can't believe they're both still here though. A club with ambition would have binned them off and overhauled our midfield a long time ago. The Glazers can get fecked.
I can't believe they're both still here though. A club with ambition would have binned them off and overhauled our midfield a long time ago. The Glazers can get fecked.
“what significance it has how many they have started and finished together this season”
Hard to know if you’re being thick or deliberately obtuse. The significance is how many minutes they’ve played this season, since we signed Cas/Eriksen. You seem to think that the arrival of Cas/Eriksen is somehow the reason Fred’s stats shit all over McT’s (which is highly debatable but whatever) They’ve both played a hell of a lot less minutes this season than last (Fred is on just over 500 minutes so far this season, finished last season with 2000+) So their stats over the last 365 days will be mainly driven by minutes played pre Cas/Eriksen. So their arrival won’t distort the overall statistical comparison much, if at all.
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Maybe I am thick or obtuse but the stats in the link you sent still says 2022/2023. And yes playing alongside Casemiro or alongside Eriksen does make the difference in the 15/17 games that the stats refer in the upper table. I was guessing you were trying to use those number to point out the "level" above that Fred was supposedly.
And why are you avoiding the point about their preferred position, when surely it does affect their stats? I am pretty sure you like many other regularly excused Fred about how he is not a CDM/DM while the majority of last season and this one McT has played CDM while it not being his best position.
You need to click the links again. You don’t seem to understand what data is being shown.
That's why I don't rely on stats too much. Take a loot at yesterday McT has 7.1 rating on whoscored, while Fred has 5.9. And everybody is telling me Fred was great while McT was at fault for himself, bruno and eriksen being dogshit at the same time.
Yes too much "data" for me.
I didn't think McTominay was that bad yesterday, especially considering it was his first full match for a while, but he's just not really close to the quality of Casemiro, and we lost, so he is being slated.
Fred, I would say, has shown really good form recently and I think should probably be playing more.
Fred, I would say, has shown really good form recently and I think should probably be playing more.
The quicker we no longer have either of them in the match day squads, the quicker we will progress to the top. Keeping them is keeping the handbrake on to progression.
Mctominay
Fred
Maguire
Wan Bisakka
are the remainder of the deadwood (that’s involved regularly) that needs to be rid of.
Mctominay
Fred
Maguire
Wan Bisakka
are the remainder of the deadwood (that’s involved regularly) that needs to be rid of.
That's why I don't rely on stats too much. Take a loot at yesterday McT has 7.1 rating on whoscored, while Fred has 5.9. And everybody is telling me Fred was great while McT was at fault for himself, bruno and eriksen being dogshit at the same time.
Yes too much "data" for me.
McT got a bad rating on whoscored because he played badly (or at the very least, didn’t influence the game enough)
Fred had a specific job when he came on, which was to help Shaw, who was getting beasted by Saka (with Rashford doing his usual substandard defensive work). He actually did that job reasonably well, hence Arsenal created less on that flank and more on the opposite flank from that point onwards.
Fred because can do job with Casa,wish we would sell McTominay to Newcastle and buy couple of cheap midfield options
McT actually had the 3rd best rating from our team. Which was appalling imo. Shaw, AWB and Varane were all better. My point being Whoscored rate based on stats don’t they?
Finally we're in agreement!
I've no idea how whoscored ratings are calculated. Always assumed it was a popularity contest.
Fred is better.
Fred works as a substitute. McTominay has not kicked on from early promise, and when he comes onto the field we drop several levels in the midfield. I don't think he is beyond saving but if a good offer comes in we should look to part ways with him.
Fred works as a substitute. McTominay has not kicked on from early promise, and when he comes onto the field we drop several levels in the midfield. I don't think he is beyond saving but if a good offer comes in we should look to part ways with him.
Fred with the condition he plays alongside Casemiro. (We need someone to tidy up)
Fred is much better. Which shows the level McTominay is at.
Doesn't bode well for either of them when an aging bloke with a pacemaker is starting over both every 3 days.