Fred vs McTominay

ETH has used Mctominay well these last few games. If he ends up being backup to Casimero then ETH will have found a useful ‘squad’ option for him….which is exactly what he should have always been.
I reckon Fred can have a role as well. He offers more energy than Eriksen (though not much else) and there will be some games where we need the midfield to cover a lot of ground so he’s useful there
 
Let's not get carried away. Both are not good enough to start long term, however one of them has its uses and the other is Fred. For all those calling for him to be used further up the pitch, what are you smoking? Play him there for what? Running? We struggle to create and control games with one limited footballer playing away from the front play, and you think we can accommodate Fred? We should get rid of him by next summer.
 
Both are decent squad players and both seem to play better when the other one isn't playing.
 
T00lsh3d said:
ETH has used Mctominay well these last few games. If he ends up being backup to Casimero then ETH will have found a useful ‘squad’ option for him….which is exactly what he should have always been.
I reckon Fred can have a role as well. He offers more energy than Eriksen (though not much else) and there will be some games where we need the midfield to cover a lot of ground so he’s useful there
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Is he? If we need energy and defensive solidity we could just pair Casemiro with McTominay. I just can't see a midfield three of Casemiro, McTominay and Fred working.
 
ArjenIsM3 said:
Is he? If we need energy and defensive solidity we could just pair Casemiro with McTominay. I just can't see a midfield three of Casemiro, McTominay and Fred working.
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Part of defensive solidity is not inviting too much pressure onto yourself unnecessarily and McTominay is simply far too poor on the ball. Yesterday he offered so little quality on the ball that invited far more pressure on ourselves that we should have despite Leicester being poor. They didn't get many chances but they got a few and that could have cost us 2 points.

I think that Casemiro, Fred and Eriksen could be a good midfield 3 for now with Sancho, Martial and Antony ahead of them. It might be a little lightweight at times but our defence is far more proactive and aggressive than it has been in years which helps. Casemiro is good at reading the game and being in the right place at the right time.
 
ArjenIsM3 said:
Is he? If we need energy and defensive solidity we could just pair Casemiro with McTominay. I just can't see a midfield three of Casemiro, McTominay and Fred working.
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I personally wouldn’t mind seeing Casemiro-Fred-Bruno when Eriksen needs a rest. We’d all love Eriksen to play every game but he looks fecked and in need of a rest already. I’d certainly prefer that to Casemiro-McTominay-Bruno
 
Kostov said:
Let's not get carried away. Both are not good enough to start long term, however one of them has its uses and the other is Fred. For all those calling for him to be used further up the pitch, what are you smoking? Play him there for what? Running? We struggle to create and control games with one limited footballer playing away from the front play, and you think we can accommodate Fred? We should get rid of him by next summer.
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There are still a few polarizing cult characters remaining at the club that need to be recycled. Fred, VDB, Shaw. Thankfully, Maguire & AWB are universally panned. A midfield with Fred & VDB will be a sight to behold.
 
Borys said:
McTominay is OK to good when asked to do simple job and the burden of progressing the ball lies on Eriksen shoulder. He was asked to do too much under Ole.

That said, I believe Fred is a better midfielder if we have Casemiro holding. He has better spatial awareness and generally useful in building the play.

Both will be useful this season, just need to be utilised properly.
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McTominay actually strikes the ball cleanly and has a good range of passing too. Where he struggles is with playing on the half-turn and progressing the ball through midfield with those neat little touches and round-the-corner passes top CMs pull-off on the regular.

I thought in the games against Southampton and Leicester he benefitted from us looking to go more direct. This idea of trying to play out seems to have quickly died (thankfully) and it's clear the plan now is two/three passes between the CBs/fullbacks and DDG to lure the press and then go long.

That suits McTominay because he'll primarily be playing in straight lines, which he is undoubtedly pretty good at.

Interestingly, for those who say what a terrible player he is, Ben Foster on his podcast said that after we played Watford (not sure when this was), the team were raving about what a good player McTominay was on the coach home. He must be very tough to play against when on-form and confident.

Like many of our players, and like many players in general, he has obvious weaknesses but the point of a 'team', 'tactics' and 'coaching' is to find a style that accentuates positives and hides the negatives
 
The real positive about signing Casemiro is that we won't have to see McTominay and Fred play together much more, because I think that's the real problem.

Casemiro being a genuine DM and top quality as well, I think it's going to be much easier for McTominay or Fred to slot in alongside him. I think both McTominay and Fred are better at going forward and winning the ball high up, and give endless amounts of energy.

What they're not good at is being deep-lying playmaker, which is almost what has been expected of them these past couple of seasons.

ETH has clearly identified that we can't play out from the back without someone like De Jong in midfield, and now we're going long and competing for the second ball. It's not been pretty, but we look like an actual unit for the first time in a long time.
 
I think both can offer more in attack than they can defence, which is a shame given that they both play DM for us
 
Zed 101 said:
I think both can offer more in attack than they can defence, which is a shame given that they both play DM for us
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This has been obvious for a while though, and the reason I was pushing for a DM this window.
Casemiro will actually make them useful midfielders.
 
Kostov said:
Let's not get carried away. Both are not good enough to start long term, however one of them has its uses and the other is Fred. For all those calling for him to be used further up the pitch, what are you smoking? Play him there for what? Running? We struggle to create and control games with one limited footballer playing away from the front play, and you think we can accommodate Fred? We should get rid of him by next summer.
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One of the most complete midfielders in the world, he plays for both midfields.
 
Spoiler, they were both hung out to dry last year and were much less the core problem than people made out. Trying to play midfield with a front 3 who contributed almost nothing defensively, with Bruno being the one to press from deep, numbers and runners coming from everywhere, an impossible task that a partnership of prime Keane and Vieria would have struggled with. Add to that far too much of immobile Maguire and ineffectual, allergic to forwards Lindelof behind them and they didn't have a chance.

Give them defined roles in a team with other players actually doing their job and contributing defensively and they have a chance to be useful. Not together perhaps but there will be games when the physicality of McT or the energy and pressing of Fred can make a impact.
 
Always thought Scott was better than Fred tbh. Fred has somehow developed a weird cult on the caf.
 
Fred is not a DM and isn't good enough on the ball to be the partner to a DM ala Eriksen. I'd move him on.

McTominay has proven he can play very well as a DM and will be a useful deputy to Casemiro.
 
Different positions.

Fred
Fred is our new Park. Brilliant in pressing, gets team rhythm instantly, one-twos, gets into the box. Loves important matches.

Can’t hold the ball, struggles under press, passing is not elite, gives away too many fouls.

Role: excellent option to kill opposition build up and counter.

Verdict: great squad player, provides a good option. Keep.

McTominay
Ball winner, height, physicality, tough guy. Gets team rhythm very well, team player. Performs in big matches. Intimidates opposition, useful against technical teams. Can he develop?

Inconsistent passing, turns into complete shit when team is not performing. Aggressive, but can’t actually lead the team.

Role: fantastic versatile option for midfield, a ball winner, box-to-box, can come into the box for crosses

Verdict: great squad player and a tactical option. Keep.

P.S. McFred is a combination of their strengths (most of them are similar) and weaknesses (again, similar).
 
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People need to calm down. Fred's day will come. Right now, McSauce is doing great, which is fantastic for the team but it's a squad game, everyone can contribute. It's not a zero sum game.
 
They aren't similar players, we just had so few options that they played in a pivot together and had issues all across the team. Fred is a weird advanced CM, for Shakhtar he was the one to bring the ball out, drive play up the pitch and link things up whereas here he's been reduced to a poor DM. McT is a B2B although there are signs he's being developed now and is starting to come deep more than he used to and be first receiver from the CB. Is either good enough to be in the PL winning team as starter, probably not but McT has played well under ETH and Fred has been effective in his cameos.
 
tomaldinho1 said:
They aren't similar players, we just had so few options that they played in a pivot together and had issues all across the team. Fred is a weird advanced CM, for Shakhtar he was the one to bring the ball out, drive play up the pitch and link things up whereas here he's been reduced to a poor DM. McT is a B2B although there are signs he's being developed now and is starting to come deep more than he used to and be first receiver from the CB. Is either good enough to be in the PL winning team as starter, probably not but McT has played well under ETH and Fred has been effective in his cameos.
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Spot on. They should be used differently and they are not good enough for our first XI. But they are brilliant squad player and great help throughout the season.
 
Both are good players, neither world class but then very few n our squad would be considered such. They are great squad players and neither are really the type of midfielders they have had to be the past 3-4 years due to our poor recruitment and planning prior to ETH.

Currently because of how we as a team are set up and need to play Scott is starting more while Fred is a super sub, but this is not necessarily a judgment by EtH on who is "better" but who is more needed at this point in the team's growth. It's the same with Casemiro and even VdB (who hasn't been seen in weeks even before his injury).
 
I'm still expecting to see Fred rack up considerably more minutes in the league over the season, but promising signs from McTominay in the last few games too. They'll both benefit this season from a) not playing every game, b) not playing together in a disjointed system, and c) playing with teammates like Eriksen and/or Casemiro who can cover for their weaknesses.

But the biggest benefit from a) will be to the rest of the team, and to our points tally :wenger:
 
Both had a good game against Arsenal. Fred was brought on to shore up the midfield and he did that. ETH is using the players as when needed. It's not either or. It depends on the situation.
 
Fred's the better player but McTominay is better at breaking up opposition play, which gives Eriksen the freedom to move forward and shine. As others have stated, Fred won't stay on the bench forever, he'll get his chance to play over the course of the season.
 
Fred is not reliable. He'll have an amazing game where he'll look like the second coming of Jesus Christ followed by 3-4 games where he fumbles over grass multiple times and loses the ball. Can't have that from a midfielder & not surprised ETH is not picking him consistently. He'll be released when his contract expires next year.
 
McTominay. Fred is a “better” player but we have better players than him for the position he plays. I’d take McTominay in the team, as we’ve been seeing under ETH.
 
Erik tenHag prefers to play with a 6 (Casemiro) for balance, a creative 8, a connector with scoring ability who shows up in the 16 meters, in addition, he must also be technically well developed and have the walking ability, a very difficult function in the vision of tenHag and a creative 10 (Fernandez)

Who has to fill in the 8 is difficult,
Eriksen is the closest I come to, although I think it's an emergency solution.
 
I actually think Fred is a great squad player, if we got him for £25 million it would have been great, he can be backup to DM, CM, LB and can start in CM in some games against the best teams or even be a great sub.

Its similar for Mctominay, whose got a solid skillset whose actuakly started to look like a DM the moment we spent £70 million on a DM.

Mctominay and Fred are great squad players, they have to the teams detriment now also built up some valuable PL experience together. With this 5 sub rule they will be even more important as squad players. This 5 sub rule has really changed the number of really really good squad players you can have, the teams with the biggest quality squads could almost press all day with this number of subs, this is why I feel city will win the league by at least 10 points.
 
I think this will probably be the last season for Fred, maybe for both of them. TH will surely be looking for that FDJ type of player again next season to play alongside Casemiro, with Eriksen/Bruno as the AM.
To go from attempting top 4 to a title challenge is a big step and McFred will need an upgrade.
 
It is so frustrating to see Fred play for Manchester United. He makes so many mistakes on the pitch offensively and defensively. Screws everything up.
 
Samid said:
The difference between them is staggering.
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No, it's not. Both are shite, only difference is that Fred is asked to be some kind of playmaker which is ridiculous considering he is no more playmaker than Mctominay anyway, so he looks even more shite than he is.
 
Fred is easily better but recency bias will make this look like an outlandish opinion.
 
Fred is always utter shite after not playing consistently for a while.
 
DarkXaero said:
Fred is easily better but recency bias will make this look like an outlandish opinion.
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Yup. McT had a couple of decent performances and suddenly he's the next Roy Keane on here. He'll regress to his usual level soon enough, sadly.
 
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