Fred vs McTominay

Here's the thing about these two:

Every once in a while, one of them will have 3-4 consecutive good games (never at the same time though), half the forum will forget how shitty they are until they give us 20 duds in a row, as usually happens, and this buys them credit with the fanbase somehow.

They're both shit, and they're both not suitable to start for us.
 
Kenneth Taylor that's the ultimated nummer 8 for an tenHag.
6 Casemiro and 10 Fernandez.
 
Eplel said:
Here's the thing about these two:

Every once in a while, one of them will have 3-4 consecutive good games (never at the same time though), half the forum will forget how shitty they are until they give us 20 duds in a row, as usually happens, and this buys them credit with the fanbase somehow.

They're both shit, and they're both not suitable to start for us.
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This. Wellsaid.
 
Fred is better but the positive for Mctominay is you can play around him. I say that as a compliment to Mctominay because Fred gets way too involved in the game for such a limited player. Its why I've always preferred Mct because to some extent he understands his limitations, Fred on the other hand tries long range shots, right footed passes and chipped through balls that he probably has a 1 in 10 success ratio.

Its why some people think Fred is a good player and other like me think he's horrendous. He's a high volume player, so in any given match he could have great contributions and ghastly ones right after. He's just too involved in the game, which would be a credit to him if he wasn't so unreliable.
 
McT is the better player on average.
Fred suits a pressing ground defense and has decent short passing but is hopeless in the air and is prone to costly mistakes. Then there's his um... (inconsistent to put it nicely) mid to long passing, dislike of being pressed and horrendous shooting.

McT isn't without faults as he doesn't move into space enough when we're trying to progress the ball up from the back in build up, he is however decent to good in the air, reasonably press resistant and vocal in communicating.
 
These things tend to swing based on the pat game or two. Fred is comfortably the better player, has had more than one season where he’s been in the argument for being our best outfield player. He’s also a Brazil international.
 
Rozay said:
These things tend to swing based on the pat game or two. Fred is comfortably the better player, has had more than one season where he’s been in the argument for being our best outfield player. He’s also a Brazil international.
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Which seasons?
 
McTominay looks pretty good now. His positioning has improved in and out of possession. He's not an amazing passer of the ball but he's pretty good at making those midfield triangles and even has the odd through ball in him. Fred hasn't looked good at all. Really the only decent shift he's put in was in the Arsenal game when ETH subbed him in for Sancho to press like crazy for 20 minutes or so. He just looks completely awful on the ball in a way that's probably not fixable with practice.

McTom has gotten a lot of game time and steadily improved. Maybe we will see that from Fred as he gets more minutes.
 
It was clearly Fred who was better last season, but this season I'd say its easily Mctominay, who has single-handedly kept the Brazilian international midfield pairs out of the starting line-up.
 
Eplel said:
Here's the thing about these two:

Every once in a while, one of them will have 3-4 consecutive good games (never at the same time though), half the forum will forget how shitty they are until they give us 20 duds in a row, as usually happens, and this buys them credit with the fanbase somehow.

They're both shit, and they're both not suitable to start for us.
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I disagree.

The fanbase used to say -

“ every once in a whilst they have a single great game”

now that’s changed to -

“every once in a whilst they have 3-4 consequitive good games”

Just sounds like some of the fan base want to write them off no matter what they do.
 
Neither of them are even close to being good enough and we need to move on asap. Ok we aren’t where we used to be but when you think ok Keane, Scholes, Robson, Ince and even the likes of Butt, Carrick or Fletcher…..then you see why these two are way off the standard required.
 
I'm just glad we have moved on from the McFred to Mc vs Fred discussion.
 
I’ve already posted this in the McTominay performance thread, but hey, I’m always keen to be educated, so I’ll try in here too.

I am biased, because I've always liked McTominay, and used to find the “McFred” chat ridiculous, as if they were the same player.

But am I right in thinking that, this season:
McTominay has started 6 games. Didn’t start v Sociedad, didn’t start v Brentford.

So started 6, lost 1 (first game of the season), won 5? As opposed to Fred’s 100% record of losing when he starts (Brighton, Brentford, Sociedad).

Factor in that one cost us £50m, and the other was an academy product, and I’d love to hear more…
 
Bondathon said:
I’ve already posted this in the McTominay performance thread, but hey, I’m always keen to be educated, so I’ll try in here too.

I am biased, because I've always liked McTominay, and used to find the “McFred” chat ridiculous, as if they were the same player.

But am I right in thinking that, this season:
McTominay has started 6 games. Didn’t start v Sociedad, didn’t start v Brentford.

So started 6, lost 1 (first game of the season), won 5? As opposed to Fred’s 100% record of losing when he starts (Brighton, Brentford, Sociedad).

Factor in that one cost us £50m, and the other was an academy product, and I’d love to hear more…
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Basically, it's very convenient that you are posting this right now. McTominay is in good form and is in the side on merit. However, this has quite obviously not always been the case and with a bit more of an open mind you would agree that on the whole, Fred has been the better player over the last 2/3 years.
 
Bondathon said:
I am biased, because I've always liked McTominay, and used to find the “McFred” chat ridiculous, as if they were the same player.
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Dont think anybody suggests that they are the same player. But the two of them played a significant number of games together and those games where characterized by certain issues caused by the specific strengths and weaknesses of both players.

Bondathon said:
So started 6, lost 1 (first game of the season), won 5? As opposed to Fred’s 100% record of losing when he starts (Brighton, Brentford, Sociedad).
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A bit undercooked I'd say. Brighton and Brentford where horrible performances, the losses where deserved (even with McTom on the pitch) and Fred was only one of many factors. Against Sociedad most of the squad was exchanged and didn't play well. Again, not very fair to place that in front of Freds door alone. And while "won 5" for McTominay may sound good, a few of those games weren't particular football festivals. Against So'ton a draw would have been just as deserved. Arsenal was also just as good as good as we where. Liverpool went into the open knife attacking us so naively.

All in all, McTominay has been good this season. But he certainly isn't the reason of our upward trend. Though he certainly is a contributing factor.

Bondathon said:
Factor in that one cost us £50m, and the other was an academy product, and I’d love to hear more…
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This is where it gets unfair. It isn't Freds fault that the club decided to pay that amount for him so the price shouldn't be used as a stick to beat him with. Same applies to McTominay the other way around. Players should be evaluated based on their performances alone, other factors can be seen but shouldn't have too much influence at least specifically when answering the question "how good is a player?". I think, we can be happy, that McTominay turned out to be such a useful player who is contributing something while getting paid a fraction of his team mates. But him being cheap doesn't make him better automatically.

All in all - lets be fair - the key to our good form recently has been Eriksen and Eriksen mostly alone. Certainly helped that ETH seemingly made his peace accepting he can't play the way he initially wanted with the players at hand and some of our opponents underestimating our strength. But lets not get carried away. It still happens quite a lot that opponents just cut through us. And it also isn't like we are creating many chances. In fact, we are mostly at a level we have been under Ole at one point (in my eyes at least), the tricky part is making the next step (here I feel more confident with ETH). Both, McTominay and Fred can be useful players in the right setup. But as long as capable replacements are brought in, I wouldn't hesitate to replace both of them as I don't see them as part of Uniteds future 1st eleven.
 
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Remember the geese said:
Basically, it's very convenient that you are posting this right now. McTominay is in good form and is in the side on merit. However, this has quite obviously not always been the case and with a bit more of an open mind you would agree that on the whole, Fred has been the better player over the last 2/3 years.
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I think both of them are more suited to a box-to-box role, and have both suffered from being asked to play a different position for most of their United careers. However, I think I can think of more outstanding McTominay performances than outstanding Fred performances.

I also think it’s relevant that, according to most fans, this is the first time in years we’ve had a decent coach, and it’s pretty obvious which one of Fred/McTominay EtH prefers.
 
Bondathon said:
I think both of them are more suited to a box-to-box role, and have both suffered from being asked to play a different position for most of their United careers. However, I think I can think of more outstanding McTominay performances than outstanding Fred performances.

I also think it’s relevant that, according to most fans, this is the first time in years we’ve had a decent coach, and it’s pretty obvious which one of Fred/McTominay EtH prefers.
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I would agree that both are better suited to box to box roles. However, I believe that Fred has quite comfortably out performed McTominay over the past few years.

McTominay is being preferred to Fred in a deeper role. That is fair enough. In a box to box capacity, it remains to be seen who ten Hag's preference would be should Bruno or Eriksen be unavailable.
 
To me the biggest difference is McT is more predictable. When we were awful all round last year at least both of them looked like they were trying and cared about the games. Fred disrupts patterns of play which is higher impact when overall we were playing badly.

Clearly neither are in the class of Eriksen etc. but as we have improved overall McT’s predictability is more valuable than Fred’s random high energy approach. His team mates have a fair idea where he will be and what he will do, which makes it easier for them to use him. Also his passing is more reliable which again is more an advantage when he is laying simple balls off to Eriksen than last year when it just looked like no progression. Fred is liable to pop up anywhere off the ball which looks like great energy when the team is all over the place and not performing like last year. But as we start getting more organised this becomes a disadvantage.

Also McTs physical strength and height are valuable in this team, a bit basic but still a factor in this side.

It could be that once Fred has more coaching in the way Ten Hag wants to play that he gets minutes and looks better. If not I think he will move on and could look good where he compliments the overall team mix and style better. McTominay looks a long term useful player, maybe not first XI but more than a random squad playe.
 
I was a firm Fred over McTominay guy but McTominay is younger and has been better this year.
 
Fred gets dropped for a few games and turns into a league 2 player
 
Would sell both if we could. Hopefully this season is a showdown of who gets to stay. Another season of these two will be painful to watch.
 
They both serve a purpose as squad players now. And when one of them starts, it's a clear down grade as it should be. Good squad options and cannot see United selling McTominay as an academy player graduate, unless he really wants to leave between now and like 5 years. Fred might leave, but he'll serve as a squad player at European competition clubs and start at mid to lower table clubs. But he's also a really good personality and gets along with the others, which is essential to a good squad.

Casemiro > McTominay
Eriksen > Fred

When you consider the functionality of the Casemiro and Eriksen duo, it's night and day compared to Fred and McTominay. McTominay scored tonight, but with Casemiro on the pitch as the anchor in midfield along with Eriksen.
 
edcunited1878 said:
They both serve a purpose as squad players now. And when one of them starts, it's a clear down grade as it should be. Good squad options and cannot see United selling McTominay as an academy player graduate, unless he really wants to leave between now and like 5 years. Fred might leave, but he'll serve as a squad player at European competition clubs and start at mid to lower table clubs. But he's also a really good personality and gets along with the others, which is essential to a good squad.

Casemiro > McTominay
Eriksen > Fred

When you consider the functionality of the Casemiro and Eriksen duo, it's night and day compared to Fred and McTominay. McTominay scored tonight, but with Casemiro on the pitch as the anchor in midfield along with Eriksen.
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I am sure the constant misplacing of passes would grate on his teammates no matter how many times he smiles and holds his hands up admitting blame.
When it comes to the World Cup I hope if we have to play Brazil at any stage that he is playing.
 
El Jefe said:
Fred is better but the positive for Mctominay is you can play around him. I say that as a compliment to Mctominay because Fred gets way too involved in the game for such a limited player. Its why I've always preferred Mct because to some extent he understands his limitations, Fred on the other hand tries long range shots, right footed passes and chipped through balls that he probably has a 1 in 10 success ratio.

Its why some people think Fred is a good player and other like me think he's horrendous. He's a high volume player, so in any given match he could have great contributions and ghastly ones right after. He's just too involved in the game, which would be a credit to him if he wasn't so unreliable.
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In simple terms, Fred is never a fringe player, because he is involved so much, who is either useful or harmful. McTom can be an impact sub, plugging a hole here and there, who might over time evolve into a JOS type.
 
Bondi77 said:
I am sure the constant misplacing of passes would grate on his teammates no matter how many times he smiles and holds his hands up admitting blame.
When it comes to the World Cup I hope if we have to play Brazil at any stage that he is playing.
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I'm sure he'll be better for Brazil knowing who is beside him (not McTominay) and ahead of him (not VdB, more like Neymar, Vini Jr, etc).
 
edcunited1878 said:
I'm sure he'll be better for Brazil knowing who is beside him (not McTominay) and ahead of him (not VdB, more like Neymar, Vini Jr, etc).
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Bad technique is bad technique no matter what colour shirt he is wearing.
 
McTominay's best level is 'good enough' and even in his bad games he can still contribute something with his athleticism.

Fred is just absolutely garbage and should be putting the cones out until his contract expires.

Sorry to be so harsh but I'm sick of it now. The club push me to this by clinging on to players who are miles out of their depth. 5 years Fred has been here! 5 years!

SAF would have seen him off after 20/25 games....players were lucky to get that once!
 
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Neither are good enough to start week in week out, but for me mctominay has always been the better option to keep.
 
Lentwood said:
McTominay's best level is 'good enough' and his even in his bad games he can still contribute something with his athleticism.

Fred is just absolutely garbage and should be putting the cones out until his contract expires.

Sorry to be so harsh but I'm sick of it now. The club push me to this by clinging on to players who are miles out of their depth. 5 years Fred has been here! 5 years!

SAF would have seen him off after 20/25 games....players were lucky to get that once!
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Bang on, well said. Starting to figure out the majority share a similar opinion and its the minority making noise for Fred
 
GL21 said:
Bang on, well said. Starting to figure out the majority share a similar opinion and its the minority making noise for Fred
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I am willing to entertain differences of opinion on every single player in our squad, bar Fred. He's just terrible. It's frightening how technically limited he is for a Premier League CM....I know the game happens quick and that forces mistakes but the number of times he mis-controls the ball or fails to make a pass under relatively no pressure and/or with plenty of time is just shockingly bad.

On a couple of occasions yesterday we had fantastic chances to open Villa up but Fred's final ball was dreadful. I am not exaggerating when I say I have played in teams with a number of lads who've played CM in lower league/conference games (I lived with one for 2 years) and they don't miss passes like that, they make them 99.99% of the time. It really is a shambles beyond all words

He's not even a good DM, that's what's frightening. He's so lightweight and short he loses most of his duels and his attempts to prevent counters....I am winding myself up here.... :lol: ....I don't think I can watch our games anymore if he's playing I feel like I'm on edge all the time :lol:
 
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