Fred - £47m well spent

Status
Not open for further replies.
So your response when I give specific examples of Herrera's passing ability to counter your utterly unsubstantiated claim is "nonsense, he passed sideways last month. Fred plays good passes out to the wings".

Fair enough \M/
 
Brexit_Brigade said:
I will genuinely never understand this.

I can go back and list at least half a dozen instances off the top of my head of Herrera creating goals with lovely passes in his time at United. And they all came in massive games (winners in a cup final and a semi-final, opening goals against Chelsea, Tottenham, Arsenal and Liverpool, comeback-sparking goal against City), which makes it even weirder that this keeps coming up. You'd think people had better memories.

Fred's got nothing on him as a passer.
Click to expand...
Herrera was a better creative passer and more dangerous around the box, while Fred is a better 'controller' in the middle of the park.

The Irish Connection said:
Nonsense. Watching Herrera in games he was so basic. For psg he’s a bench player. When we played them he was constantly passing back or sideways. Fred regularly plays good whipped balls out to the wings and through the lines.
Mctominay is better than Herrera, it’s why he was sold, and yet, most people here would say that Fred is better than Mctominay.
Don’t get me wrong, I liked Herrera, very passionate and he did have the knack for the odd good goal but he added very little else.
Click to expand...
Not a chance, and Herrera wasn't sold. He left on a free after refusing to sign the contract that we offered.

Herrera and Fred are at a similar level with slightly different strengths and weaknesses. With our setup I do think Fred is better for us now than Herrera would be (for instance I don't think Herrera would be able to partner McTominay).
 
Last edited:
simplyared said:
OK let's say Fred's worth is not known at this moment in time. He's not up for sale and no clubs as far as we know have made any bids for the player. If Fred was to be a good deal we'd have to get at least what we gave for him or even more. It would be interesting to hear what your value would be on the other 3 players I mentioned:
Maddison ?
Höjbjerg ?
Jota ?
Click to expand...

The measure of a good deal in your mind is based entirely on the sell-on price ?

So if you buy a player for £50m, get 5 years of World class performance from him and then sell him in his last year of contract for £10m, that is a bad deal? You have to take into account the value you have extracted in the time you have had the player. It isn't like buying art or antiques, where they just sit on a shelf until you sell them.

You're extracting economic value from these assets while they are under contract at your club.

Personally, I would say we have had a good deal with Fred. Massive engine, decent passing, good winner of the ball, yes. But I think what a lot of people forget, and that a couple of others have mentioned, is the times when we have been garbage, and Fred has been one of the only ones on the pitch holding us together. I think we would be in much worse position over the past couple of years without him, especially pre Bruno. That is his value in my opinion.
 
MadDogg said:
Herrera was a better creative passer and more dangerous around the box, while Fred is a better 'controller' in the middle of the park.


Not a chance, and Herrera wasn't sold. He left on a free after refusing to sign the contract that we offered.

Herrera and Fred are at a similar level with slightly different strengths and weaknesses. With our setup I do think Fred is better for us now than Herrera would be (for instance I don't think Herrera would be able to partner McTominay).
Click to expand...
I disagree. Sorry, yeah Herrera left on a free, but the point still stands, the club didn’t see him as good enough to offer more to keep, so he left, and he ended up as a bench option for psg.
Let’s not forget, Fred got the better of psg’s midfield on two occasions and Herrera can’t get into it as a regular.
Watching Herrera, he passed it sideways and backwards way more than Fred and he wasn’t as good at winning the ball back. Yes, he was a better goal scorer but so is Mctominay.
 
Bobade said:
The measure of a good deal in your mind is based entirely on the sell-on price ?

So if you buy a player for £50m, get 5 years of World class performance from him and then sell him in his last year of contract for £10m, that is a bad deal? You have to take into account the value you have extracted in the time you have had the player. It isn't like buying art or antiques, where they just sit on a shelf until you sell them.

You're extracting economic value from these assets while they are under contract at your club.

Personally, I would say we have had a good deal with Fred. Massive engine, decent passing, good winner of the ball, yes. But I think what a lot of people forget, and that a couple of others have mentioned, is the times when we have been garbage, and Fred has been one of the only ones on the pitch holding us together. I think we would be in much worse position over the past couple of years without him, especially pre Bruno. That is his value in my opinion.
Click to expand...
No thats not what I'm saying at all. Regarding Fred: We've had him for 2.5 yrs and he's now 27 yrs old. I'm saying if we were to sell him now we wouldn't get anywhere near the price we gave for the player. That's my opinion and yes it's subjective. Albeit he's valued on Transfermarkt at 20m euros (not saying thats spot on, although one wonders why they would underestimate his value). Whatever, the estimated drop in value is based upon his performances since he joined us. (His contribution to the Leipzig game got us out of the competion ffs). Yes players depreciate in value owing to their age or how far they have come in their contract. However in Fred's case he's 27 which means he's got a good 3yrs at least before he enters a downhill curve and yet we'd be lucky to get over 20m for him. That is how I would value the player and I don't believe that to be a good deal!
 
I like Fred and he has been pretty good this year. I just think 47m should buy an excellent DM and Fred will never be considered excellent because of his loose first touch and his passing is good at best.

Another way to put it is I get nervous when Fred and McT get the ball in tight spaces in our half and I almost expect them to lose the ball more often than not. A 47m player should not make one nervous in those situations.
 
Ekeke said:
He wasnt good last time out anyway against Fulham. Last good midfield performance was Matic and Pogba Vs. Burnley and the match before that against Watford that Fred also missed.
Click to expand...

No way that second goal goes in if Fred is on the pitch. Its was lovely of our players mind you to wait around and ensure that the bottom team had as many chances as needed to put it in the net.
 
Falcow said:
No way that second goal goes in if Fred is on the pitch. Its was lovely of our players mind you to wait around and ensure that the bottom team had as many chances as needed to put it in the net.
Click to expand...

Thats a crazy take. Fred doesn't track back into our box very often at all.

If you were to suggest someone wouldnt get as much time in central midfield, like McTominay sitting off Firminho for Liverpool's first last time out then that makes perfect sense. Fred makes lots of presses in that area. He is not someone who comes back as an extra CB in our box and makes vital defensive contributions often.

Matic is covering Telles at left back, Pogba is around and doesnt pressure but that doesnt mean Fred suddenly does something he doesnt do just because you like him. More likely than Pogba? Yes. But still not likely. Matic would be the most likely to get back there and make a defensive contribution in his box, but he's already covered Telles and cant be everywhere.
 
Ekeke said:
He wasnt good last time out anyway against Fulham. Last good midfield performance was Matic and Pogba Vs. Burnley and the match before that against Watford that Fred also missed.
Click to expand...

Usual anti-Fred from you. At least you are consistent....
 
Ekeke said:
Thats a crazy take. Fred doesn't track back into our box very often at all.

If you were to suggest someone wouldnt get as much time in central midfield, like McTominay sitting off Firminho for Liverpool's first last time out then that makes perfect sense. Fred makes lots of presses in that area. He is not someone who comes back as an extra CB in our box and makes vital defensive contributions often.

Matic is covering Telles at left back, Pogba is around and doesnt pressure but that doesnt mean Fred suddenly does something he doesnt do just because you like him. More likely than Pogba? Yes. But still not likely. Matic would be the most likely to get back there and make a defensive contribution in his box, but he's already covered Telles and cant be everywhere.
Click to expand...

Ah I see then. I guess it must be just some crazy coincidence that Fred has missed the games against Crystal Palace, Spurs, Istanbul, RB Leipzig and Sheffield United.

Do you want to maybe hazard a guess as to who won each of those 6 teams?

As the poster above said, your anti Fred agenda is unbelievable man, just let it go.
 
Falcow said:
Ah I see then. I guess it must be just some crazy coincidence that Fred has missed the games against Crystal Palace, Spurs, Istanbul, RB Leipzig and Sheffield United.

Do you want to maybe hazard a guess as to who won each of those 6 teams?

As the poster above said, your anti Fred agenda is unbelievable man, just let it go.
Click to expand...

Oh the games where Fernandes carried us? You like Fred, you're attributing things he doesnt do to him because of your agenda
 
Ekeke said:
Oh the games where Fernandes carried us? You like Fred, you're attributing things he doesnt do to him because of your agenda
Click to expand...

Unlucky but good guess all the same. Fernandez didnt carry us in those games as we actually lost them.
 
Falcow said:
Ah I see then. I guess it must be just some crazy coincidence that Fred has missed the games against Crystal Palace, Spurs, Istanbul, RB Leipzig and Sheffield United.

Do you want to maybe hazard a guess as to who won each of those 6 teams?

As the poster above said, your anti Fred agenda is unbelievable man, just let it go.
Click to expand...

Why are you bothering? The dude you’re arguing will never concede a point, under any circumstances, no matter how stupid it makes him look. He’s the redcafe Donald Trump of doubling down.
 
Pogue Mahone said:
Why are you bothering? The dude you’re arguing will never concede a point, under any circumstances, no matter how stupid it makes him look. He’s the redcafe Donald Trump of doubling down.
Click to expand...


:lol: I'm starting to see that. I think I'll just go to bed. Crap day all round.
 
Falcow said:
No way that second goal goes in if Fred is on the pitch. Its was lovely of our players mind you to wait around and ensure that the bottom team had as many chances as needed to put it in the net.
Click to expand...
I agree. Both Fred and Mctominay are hugely underrated in helping us function as a team in the premier league. The midfield was way too lethargic today.
 
Pogue Mahone said:
Why are you bothering? The dude you’re arguing will never concede a point, under any circumstances, no matter how stupid it makes him look. He’s the redcafe Donald Trump of doubling down.
Click to expand...

Another year another stupid post from Pogue. If you ever had the capacity to read posts instead of creating phantom arguments that people never said, it would be obvious that I concede a lot. Example - Mata being the better signing from Valencia than Silva. Of course theres no point providing you with actual information because you'll just pretend I said something I didnt say then argue against it
 
Matic- Pogba- Bruno couldn’t win the EL but we expect them to be good enough to win the league? No chance.There’s just nowhere near enough aggression in the middle. We never try to dominate the midfield without Fred or Mct. Pogba and matic slow it down waaaay too much and don’t have enough aggression. Bruno is too far away from them and losing the ball for fun trying to feed our forwards who look lost. when the other team step up they can create decent chances in 2 or 3 passes against us while we over complicate our own attacking play trying to pass it through the bus. We are camped outside their box but without any penetration. Fred’s defending high up the pitch has turned the ball over fast and started counters for easy and ugly goals for us and he at least tries to win the midfield battle. At this stage I hate watching matic walk around. He’s got a pass when given lots of time and he’s tall. That’s it. If we continue to play Pogba we need someone far more aggressive in their play behind him.
 
One of Fred or McTominay are need to.provide some aggression in midfield. Just shows why we need those two usually.
 
Ekeke said:
Thats a crazy take. Fred doesn't track back into our box very often at all.
Click to expand...
He sets about winning it much further up the pitch. It makes a huge difference turning it over like that. It gets the ball to our forwards in good positions before the defense is fully set. We do miss him.
 
sidsutton said:
He sets about winning it much further up the pitch. It makes a huge difference turning it over like that. It gets the ball to our forwards in good positions before the defense is fully set. We do miss him.
Click to expand...

I agree, it would obviously have helped in pressing in midfield. Not tracking back into the box
 
Falcow said:
No Fred, no party.
Click to expand...

Another game with no Fred, another game we look so shit. It‘s just not coincidence anymore. We are turning Brighton, RB Leipzig away & Sheffield United home & away to look like playing against Pep’s Man City
 
pocco said:
Had a quick check to see if I was imagining it. But looked at the last 6 games and he's only started twice. Unless there's something else going on, it is a bit of a head scratcher really
Click to expand...

Interesting. No harm in being rested but I didnt realise he only started 4 of the last 6. I suspect he will start against Arsenal on Sayurday.
 
Falcow said:
Interesting. No harm in being rested but I didnt realise he only started 4 of the last 6. I suspect he will start against Arsenal on Sayurday.
Click to expand...

2 of the last 6. Been on the bench and subbed on at times, which means there's no reason he can't play other than resting him. Seems Ole took the gamble to have him fresh or decided he needs to be fair and give Matic and McTominay the same amount of game time.
 
pocco said:
2 of the last 6. Been on the bench and subbed on at times, which means there's no reason he can't play other than resting him. Seems Ole took the gamble to have him fresh or decided he needs to be fair and give Matic and McTominay the same amount of game time.
Click to expand...

Apologies yes meant to say 2 not 4.
I dont recall Matic playing much lately however? I though he actually looked rusty last night.
 
Do people actually rate this guy? I think he’s absolutely awful and doesn’t offer anything more than energy. Is that enough to make it these days to make it as a footballer these days? I might be still in with a chance. Fred is so average and is one of the reasons we will never compete.
 
Martialfc said:
Do people actually rate this guy? I think he’s absolutely awful and doesn’t offer anything more than energy. Is that enough to make it these days to make it as a footballer these days? I might be still in with a chance. Fred is so average and is one of the reasons we will never compete.
Click to expand...
In certain situations. He usually plays quite well in big games and gets due credit for this — it’s just that he doesn’t have the skills to be influential while we’re in possession. I think he’s a great squad player exactly for the above mentioned situations, but he shouldn’t be a starter for a team that aspires to win big titles.

Weirdly enough, he had one of his best games in terms of his ball-playing contribution as a left back (although who wasn’t playing great against the mentally destroyed Southampton).
 
Not his biggest fan (far from it etc.) but I don't really feel the need to blame him, apart from the fact he needs to stop shooting because its a waste of everyones time. The people crying for VDB to come on instead of him were genuinely embarrassing.

He's a squad option though, and I'd upgrade on him in a heartbeat.
 
Very poor when he came on and when we goto a double pivot with him and Scott, it invites pressure. He can break play up but he really doesn't make good decisions when needed
 
I thought he was good and I think we are a better team with him on the side. I don't have time to look up the stats now but the stats are showing it too. He could be better with the ball and he needs to stop shooting but he is not a problem right now IMO. Our defense, with Pogba and say Matic in front of them, would be even worse.
 
Why is he being called out? Considering he played for 52' he had the highest number of touches, highest number of passes completed with 93% accuracy, made 8 recoveries (only Lindelof and McTominay had more-10).

He's not a DM and people need to realize that. His offensive contribution was really good and he kept the ball moving, helped us to keep possession as well.

I think the only way he avoids ANY criticizm is if he somehow stops De Gea and Tuanzebe mistakes.
 
Borys said:
Why is he being called out? Considering he played for 52' he had the highest number of touches, highest number of passes completed with 93% accuracy, made 8 recoveries (only Lindelof and McTominay had more-10).

He's not a DM and people need to realize that. His offensive contribution was really good and he kept the ball moving, helped us to keep possession as well.

I think the only way he avoids ANY criticizm is if he somehow stops De Gea and Tuanzebe mistakes.
Click to expand...

I think because most of us expect more from our 47M midfielder than “kept the ball moving and helped us to keep possession.” That’s fine for a academy rotation player like McTominay but even he has more strings in his bow.
 
harms said:
In certain situations. He usually plays quite well in big games and gets due credit for this — it’s just that he doesn’t have the skills to be influential while we’re in possession. I think he’s a great squad player exactly for the above mentioned situations, but he shouldn’t be a starter for a team that aspires to win big titles.

Weirdly enough, he had one of his best games in terms of his ball-playing contribution as a left back (although who wasn’t playing great against the mentally destroyed Southampton).
Click to expand...

Indeed, he did. He makes the sort of passes you might expect from Telles rather than Shaw, but with the technique of a midfielder.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.