Fred - £47m well spent

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MikeeMike said:
Well I’m an anti Fred. I see sporadic potential and spells where he seems to control but quoting stats ,90% accuracy, is deluded. What does that statistic break down to? I saw ,and now see a 50m player who I would sell and simply cannot understand the comments of world class, first on team sheet etc.

Look at his first game in pre season friendly and tell me where the 50million went?
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If you use that logic to every player, probably all our players are shit and overpaid.

This is pretty embarrassing thread to be honest, people thinking some other players* went for a few millions less than Fred so we made a bad deal. In reality there are many, many different factors, and we tend to overpay for players so it's a broader issue and has little to do with Fred.

*it's always a question mark if they are better and how would they perform in our team
 
So many drama queens, he was very good yesterday.

We played crap though so everyone is crap and Ole is shit again.
 
Borys said:
If you use that logic to every player, probably all our players are shit and overpaid.

This is pretty embarrassing thread to be honest, people thinking some other players* went for a few millions less than Fred so we made a bad deal. In reality there are many, many different factors, and we tend to overpay for players so it's a broader issue and has little to do with Fred.

*it's always a question mark if they are better and how would they perform in our team
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Good point as really the transfer fee is almost meaningless. 30,40,50 million etc.
I don’t actually know or care what he gets paid but I do see constant ball watching, shocking first touch and naive positional awareness. His work rate is epic but for me he could be so much better.
I referred to signing fee in tandem with his first game for us in pre season where I was frankly shocked how bad he was.

I want him to improve as he does have periods in games where he is all over every attack and I admit he is not helped when Pogba and McT are sub par but I simply don’t get the rave reviews he has game after game.
 
He serves a purpose. Better without the ball, than with it, but does a job complimenting others and "allow" them the freedom to shine. Would like it if he could improve on his "on the ball" bits/add a bit of goal threat/shooting etc.

Similar in a way to Herrera. I'm not sure he adds much more than Herrera did. That's just my opinion though.
 
Ish said:
He serves a purpose. Better without the ball, than with it, but does a job complimenting others and "allow" them the freedom to shine. Would like it if he could improve on his "on the ball" bits/add a bit of goal threat/shooting etc.

Similar in a way to Herrera. I'm not sure he adds much more than Herrera did. That's just my opinion though.
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more athletic than Herrera but lacks his goal threat, but that's a trade off I can work with.

I don't get why people post directly after a game, it just skews their judgement and makes people post ridiculous things.

While it wasn't freds best game he was up against a VERY good city midfield. they were practically 3v2 every time with Fernandes failing to stop Fernandinho get on the ball.
 
Adam-Utd said:
more athletic than Herrera but lacks his goal threat, but that's a trade off I can work with.

I don't get why people post directly after a game, it just skews their judgement and makes people post ridiculous things.

While it wasn't freds best game he was up against a VERY good city midfield. they were practically 3v2 every time with Fernandes failing to stop Fernandinho get on the ball.
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Agreed - emotional posts after a win/defeat isn't the best thing one can do :lol: but i guess that's what a forum is for.

Fred's improved massively, especially after his horror'ish start to his career. I've never been his biggest fan if I'm honest, so take my views with a pinch of salt. I see him as a very good/important squad player but i still think he needs to overcome some of his obvious limitations if he wants to be a regular. Same with McT. But they've both contributed massively, and have their uses. Does that sound fair or harsh?
 
Like Fellaini became a symbol of the Moyes reign and he was often, unfairly targeted; Fred is the symbol of the Jose term and many can't look past that.

He's an unspectacular, yet improtant part of our midfield. When he doesn't play we often get overran. He's arguably our best midfielder in terms of beating the high press. He often bursts forward and relieves the pressure on the defence.
 
Ish said:
Agreed - emotional posts after a win/defeat isn't the best thing one can do :lol: but i guess that's what a forum is for.

Fred's improved massively, especially after his horror'ish start to his career. I've never been his biggest fan if I'm honest, so take my views with a pinch of salt. I see him as a very good/important squad player but i still think he needs to overcome some of his obvious limitations if he wants to be a regular. Same with McT. But they've both contributed massively, and have their uses. Does that sound fair or harsh?
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Yeah they're by no means perfect - but they're the best pair we've got right now and seem to do a good enough job of carrying the water for the team and letting the front 4 win the matches.

At times though against better defences we need more from the midfield, but lets be honest they don't really have that in them. Finding a midfielder capable of doing all the hard work + being creative is very difficult.

Personally i'm ok with our midfielders being limited as long as there is threat coming from the wide areas. The issue is often our fullbacks don't offer enough going forward either - so when the attack are having a bad night we just look a bit toothless.

apart from the first 10 minutes against city I don't think we made their keeper make any other saves which is disappointing.

I think Ole + the team need to learn to be a bit more patient and keep the ball moving, you can't beat top teams by counter attacking at speed every time, so whenever we get a moment of possession and need to be patient to break teams down we just can't do it and end up looking rushed and flustered.

Let's be honest though the difference in quality to City's midfield is pretty big. We could do with a player like Gundogan (I was hoping that would be DVB) alongside one of the CDM's to add some better balance.

I like Mctominay but he's just not cute enough on the ball for those type of matches with little space IMO.
 
Ekeke said:
Which teams would pay £47 million for Fred?
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Who cares? We did, in a very different market to the one we have today.

This modern obsession with transfer fees and equating a players worth from how much we paid/how much someone else would be willing to pay is bizarre.
 
He played 77 games for united and have just 3 goals & 6 assists. He is not a number 6 like Matic. city was doubling up on our FB but unlike Matic he did not made back 3 so that shaw or AWB can push ahead. He cant score or assists and gets bullied physically by other players.
 
Ish said:
Agreed - emotional posts after a win/defeat isn't the best thing one can do :lol: but i guess that's what a forum is for.

Fred's improved massively, especially after his horror'ish start to his career. I've never been his biggest fan if I'm honest, so take my views with a pinch of salt. I see him as a very good/important squad player but i still think he needs to overcome some of his obvious limitations if he wants to be a regular. Same with McT. But they've both contributed massively, and have their uses. Does that sound fair or harsh?
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Fair but are you not frustrated that they are not improving and/or consistent game after game. For me it is hold your breath for 20m at start of every game wondering if our midfield will have good or bad day
 
b82REZ said:
Who cares? We did, in a very different market to the one we have today.

This modern obsession with transfer fees and equating a players worth from how much we paid/how much someone else would be willing to pay is bizarre.
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The OP clearly since he started a thread about how hes been £47 million well spent
 
Strange to pick on his performance from last nights game. I thought he was very good. There is no shortage of players to criticise last night, Martial, Bruno, Mctominay, Rashford, AVB, Fred isn't one of them.
 
He's been decent for us and is a reliable player but for £47m you'd want more than what he offers. A good but limited player and while not a terrible deal, I don't think he's been value for money.
 
Adam-Utd said:
Yeah they're by no means perfect - but they're the best pair we've got right now and seem to do a good enough job of carrying the water for the team and letting the front 4 win the matches.

At times though against better defences we need more from the midfield, but lets be honest they don't really have that in them. Finding a midfielder capable of doing all the hard work + being creative is very difficult.

Personally i'm ok with our midfielders being limited as long as there is threat coming from the wide areas. The issue is often our fullbacks don't offer enough going forward either - so when the attack are having a bad night we just look a bit toothless.

apart from the first 10 minutes against city I don't think we made their keeper make any other saves which is disappointing.

I think Ole + the team need to learn to be a bit more patient and keep the ball moving, you can't beat top teams by counter attacking at speed every time, so whenever we get a moment of possession and need to be patient to break teams down we just can't do it and end up looking rushed and flustered.

Let's be honest though the difference in quality to City's midfield is pretty big. We could do with a player like Gundogan (I was hoping that would be DVB) alongside one of the CDM's to add some better balance.

I like Mctominay but he's just not cute enough on the ball for those type of matches with little space IMO.
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Yeah, playing one of them is fine, but seems playing both together, you're severely restricting creativity from the middle. This is ok if/when your front 4 is ale to produce. But when they are not producing, the midfields limitations become obvious.

Wrt the patience aspect - agreed but it seems our style is to be much more direct and dependent on that front 4. If we could add that threat from fullback and/or central midfield, without disrupting the balance in the team, we'd be onto something. Let's hope to continue the league run!

MikeeMike said:
Fair but are you not frustrated that they are not improving and/or consistent game after game. For me it is hold your breath for 20m at start of every game wondering if our midfield will have good or bad day
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Yeah, it depends really. But i get what you're saying. I think it might have something to do with not starting a consistent pair either. Maybe this is due to their inconsistency or because we take the opponents strength into account - possible a mixture? Seems Fred and McT are used against "better" teams and Pogba is used in the middle when we need more spark/creativity. If he wasn't so wildly inconsistent, it would be less of an issue, IMO.
 
Ashish Negi said:
He played 77 games for united and have just 3 goals & 6 assists. He is not a number 6 like Matic. city was doubling up on our FB but unlike Matic he did not made back 3 so that shaw or AWB can push ahead. He cant score or assists and gets bullied physically by other players.
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He is a defensive midfielder, though. I don't know why people keep arguing he is not when he clearly is. The vast majority of the time he plays deeper; he very rarely reaches the edge of the opponent's box. His main job is to defend, which he is up there with the best in the league. Only Romeu and Kante have a noticeable gap on him. At most DMs score 2 goals per season, and about the same with assists.

3 goals and six assists are fine. Although, there he should have more assists; I can think of a few chances messed up by the receiver. Rashford yesterday, Rashford against Leicester, last season against City when passed to Rashford. There seems to be a theme here. Assists are a poor way to judge a players performance. He is the joint-third most creative DM in the league in terms of key passes and total pass made.
 
I disagree with the title. £47m for a technically limited workhorse is a rip off. He doesn’t even offer Scott’s physicality or slight goal threat. I would say he’s a £25m player, £30m at the absolute max.
 
I still believe once we replace him and people see the difference a player who is much more well rounded and tidy on the ball will make to this team, people will realise they've sensationalised the quality of Fred. He's fine, he's a good squad option, he has plenty of great performances, but yeah we can do better.
 
b82REZ said:
Who cares? We did, in a very different market to the one we have today.

This modern obsession with transfer fees and equating a players worth from how much we paid/how much someone else would be willing to pay is bizarre.
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I totally agree, it's bizarre. Either a player is good enough to be playing or not. It's not Fred's fault if he cost £47m or £99m or £10m. That tells you more about markets and supply and demand than it tells you about football. Whould all those who criticise Fred be delighted with him if he only cost £25m? Would Bruno be a flop if he'd have cost £200? All the matters is performance on the pitch.
 
b82REZ said:
Like Fellaini became a symbol of the Moyes reign and he was often, unfairly targeted; Fred is the symbol of the Jose term and many can't look past that.

He's an unspectacular, yet improtant part of our midfield. When he doesn't play we often get overran. He's arguably our best midfielder in terms of beating the high press. He often bursts forward and relieves the pressure on the defence.
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I don't think he is. If anything Fellaini was more a symbol of Moyes and Jose than Fred. Don't forget Fred was signed by Ed with Jose's approval at a time where it seemed we were just trying to buy anyone city went after as some weird show of power. Fred was then frozen out of the team and hardly used by Jose. Jose even insinuated in the press that Fred wasn't his signing. So I don't think anyone thinks of Fred/Jose in the same vein as Fellaini/Moyes. Lukaku and Jose is more symbolic of Mour's time here for me. I think the reason Fred gets targeted by fans on here is because he isn't the complete footballer, he does some things well and others not so. He's an almost identical player to Herrera in a lot of regards, whom again split the fan base.

Players who press and work a lot will always have their fans, and rightly so. However, other people just see the glaring weaknesses in other areas, such as passing and moving the ball forwards so if fred misplaces a few paces it annoys one set. However, if he presses all game then the other set is still happy. Hence the big split.
 
kettledrumhamster said:
I totally agree, it's bizarre. Either a player is good enough to be playing or not. It's not Fred's fault if he cost £47m or £99m or £10m. That tells you more about markets and supply and demand than it tells you about football. Whould all those who criticise Fred be delighted with him if he only cost £25m? Would Bruno be a flop if he'd have cost £200? All the matters is performance on the pitch.
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Agree. Fred is not the problem and whilst his ceiling might not be as high as others, look to those who ceilings are but don't deliver. Fred has more MOTM performances than Pogs, Harry, Matic and Scott put together....
 
.....for someone who can't pass, created two high quality chances for Rashford in the last 2 games....
 
The most annoying thing about Fred when playing with McT is that neither has the brains to sit in front of the defence and protect it if one of the other is attacking.

Look at Fernandinho last night sitting protecting the defence and the amount of times in the second half City broke quickly leaving Fred and McT at the edge of the city box driving straight at our defence.

Hard to blame either player for that since it should be bloody pretty obvious form the management to make them do it.
 
Needham said:
He is underwhelming and highly unlikely to be part of a winning legacy team, unless he were to -in his own way- do the job of a Jisung Park. But the consistency and selflessness this would take look beyond him. While we're on the subject, your boy Martial's been a searing disappointment through the years so check yourself before you wreck yourself.
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I despise Martial, the only players who are good enough for united are Bruno and greenwood.
 
Ish said:
He serves a purpose. Better without the ball, than with it, but does a job complimenting others and "allow" them the freedom to shine. Would like it if he could improve on his "on the ball" bits/add a bit of goal threat/shooting etc.

Similar in a way to Herrera. I'm not sure he adds much more than Herrera did. That's just my opinion though.
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Yeah that’s the type of footballer we need In our teams. The ones that are better without the ball. If I got fit enough to be an athlete I could do a job without the ball...That’s not what we need at United. We need a Modric, Kroos, Scholes ect not a glorified press merchant who hasn’t got a brain. How about we buy players who have vision and just don’t pass sideway like a crab.
 
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Paddymcc said:
The most annoying thing about Fred when playing with McT is that neither has the brains to sit in front of the defence and protect it if one of the other is attacking.

Look at Fernandinho last night sitting protecting the defence and the amount of times in the second half City broke quickly leaving Fred and McT at the edge of the city box driving straight at our defence.

Hard to blame either player for that since it should be bloody pretty obvious form the management to make them do it.
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100% agree. If we accept mediocre players we will be a mediocre team. Let’s just keep the likes of Fred, Jones and Lingard on our books. tHEy aRE GoOD SqUAD plaYers.
 
I just don't see what some of you peps see. I rate his as a squad player and nothing more. Offers very little and lacks creative movement when on the ball. I'll defo sell him and put money for improvements.
 
Litch said:
.....for someone who can't pass, created two high quality chances for Rashford in the last 2 games....
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This is my issue. He has moments where he is rock solid and creative . But has more moments where he loses the ball due to poor touch, gives away stupid Freekicks in danger areas,stands in space thinking this is useful , doesnt track his man due to ball watching and (Ive watch lots of replays) points vaguely to defenders to pass a man over while standing in space.

I realise I’m repeating myself here so will back out of this “fred” for a while and just hope he can hit some consistent form.
 
Martialfc said:
Yeah that’s the type of footballer we need In our teams. The ones that are better without the ball. If I got fit enough to be an athlete I could do a job without the ball...That’s not what we need at United. We need a Modric, Kroos, Scholes ect not a glorified press merchant who hasn’t got a brain. How about we buy players who have vision and just don’t pass sideway like a crab.
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Yes, we do need a player like that. But they will then play next to Fred, not instead of him. Unless you think one of our other options would be a better partner for that type of player?
 
He's got great stamina so can he be the starting box to box option for us if/when we get a specialist defensive midfielder to replace Matic? Or is he not good enough on the ball for that?
 
Edy2 said:
He's got great stamina so can he be the starting box to box option for us if/when we get a specialist defensive midfielder to replace Matic? Or is he not good enough on the ball for that?
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It depends what type of defensive midfielder it is. If it's a deep-lying playmaker like a Carrick or Alonso who defends more with their positioning, then yes Fred is probably a good partner. He would provide the harrying and pressing ability, constantly moving to be in position to receive the ball and is good enough on the ball to contribute. He shouldn't be expected to be the main playmaker himself though (which is the role he has to play when partnered with McTominay) so you wouldn't want to partner him with somebody like Ndidi.
 
keithsingleton said:
I just don't see what some of you peps see. I rate his as a squad player and nothing more. Offers very little and lacks creative movement when on the ball. I'll defo sell him and put money for improvements.
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Interesting, what is a "creative movement when on the ball"? Are we coming up with new ways to criticize Fred?
 
MadDogg said:
It depends what type of defensive midfielder it is. If it's a deep-lying playmaker like a Carrick or Alonso who defends more with their positioning, then yes Fred is probably a good partner. He would provide the harrying and pressing ability, constantly moving to be in position to receive the ball and is good enough on the ball to contribute. He shouldn't be expected to be the main playmaker himself though (which is the role he has to play when partnered with McTominay) so you wouldn't want to partner him with somebody like Ndidi.
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Good point. I don't know if Garner is going to get a shot at United next season but from what I've seen he's that Carrick type deep playmaker so that partnership could maybe have a future.
 
Martialfc said:
Yeah that’s the type of footballer we need In our teams. The ones that are better without the ball. If I got fit enough to be an athlete I could do a job without the ball...That’s not what we need at United. We need a Modric, Kroos, Scholes ect not a glorified press merchant who hasn’t got a brain. How about we buy players who have vision and just don’t pass sideway like a crab.
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I'm not sure if you're having a go at me for something i didn't say? I've been pretty clear saying he's a squad player, who's proven his value but i think we need players better on the ball/or Fred needs to improve. And for the record, there's a use for most players. Kante isn't the best on the ball (albeit at times a bit underrated) - and there are a few other examples out there - but these players have uses, especially when surrounded by a complimentary skillset. Fred's deficiencies are even more exposed when partnered with McT.
 
Fred has definitely proven himself a good signing and offers attributes to our midfield that no one else in the team does.

His work rate, energy, ability to win the ball back consistently and launch attacks are up there with anyone in the league and are perfect for bigger games.

My main issue is that he is quite a specific player and so requires quite a specific partner. Him and McTominay largely fulfil similar roles (Fred just does it a lot better than McTominay) and so we should absolutely be looking for a new CDM to compliment Fred in the summer. A CDM who sits in front of the centre backs and is comfortable taking the ball from the defence and distributing it forward. A player, as mentioned quite a few times already, in the mould of Carrick/Alonso/Fernandinho but there unfortunately seem to be very few options that fit the bill.

If, however, we were able to get this new CDM in I think a good approach would be to combine them with Fred in the big games and then try them next to VDB against the smaller teams who will play deeper and invite pressure on to them.

Donny's skill set suits playing against Burnley, Fred's suits playing against City.
 
MadDogg said:
Yes, we do need a player like that. But they will then play next to Fred, not instead of him. Unless you think one of our other options would be a better partner for that type of player?
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No those players play besides players like Casemiro or even Fernandinho, not Fred.
 
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