There were several Portuguese speakers around before Bruno. Besides Fred came good before Bruno came.
Fred - £47m well spent
- Thread starter RashyForPM
- Start date
- Status
There were several Portuguese speakers around before Bruno. Besides Fred came good before Bruno came.
Fred has ended up being a good signing for us but we overpaid by about £10-15m for him.
Cost more than Fabinho who is clearly the better player. He also cost far more than Hojberg and Douglas Luiz and I wouldn't say he's that much better than them.
Cost more than Fabinho who is clearly the better player. He also cost far more than Hojberg and Douglas Luiz and I wouldn't say he's that much better than them.
The difference between those three players and Fred is that they were good enough defensively to play that screening role in front of the defence by themselves. Fred isn't, because he's better at pressing than sitting deep and doesn't have their positional sense.
Fred gets the ball enough in threatening positions for his atrocious shooting and so-so decision-making to be a problem, and he's not defensively secure enough to make up for it. No one would be complaining about his shooting if he was shielding the defence like prime Makelele.
Apart from the shooting he keeps his head down and gets on with it, I rate him highly, but underrated for the amount of grind he puts in!
I think you would be surprised by how quickly he will feature in the team, Caicedo is coming in as a squad player with a view to grow into a starter within 24 months - the implications of targeting a Sancho/Grealish/Halaand means that we will have to take punts on young players like Caicedo and look to use them in the team.
I think we will try to replace Pogba with Grealish and with us needing a CB too that would mean we won't have the money to then go and add an established DM so we will have to make do with a tandem of Fred/McT/Matic/Caicedo for the double pivot.
Not convinced. He loses the ball to often in silly areas and there are better alternatives.
You don't think he has been playing very well for much of the season?
Agreed he does have that tendency to lose the ball in dangerous areas (this was a major issue initially with him) but he seems to have improved a lot in this regard.
He's dynamic in our midfield, it's surprising how many times he wins the ball and springs the attack which is pivotal in our transition as we score a lot on the counter. I think he's been impressive this season and is part of the reason why we are doing well.
He really doesn't though.
You clearly don't watch United week in week out with your eyes open like I do then. He is notorious for losing the ball in our half. He gives us drive and energy, but has a habit of losing the ball in dangerous areas.
I agree about his dynamism and I think he dovetails nicely with McTominay. There is no question that his energy is infectious and we definitely need a box to boxer with his attitude and drive. But at this level, you cannot give the ball away in silly areas as often as he does. You just cannot. He almost cost us against Villa for doing just that. Mind, Pogba has been quite capable on that score too, but seems to have improved. If you want an example of a player who does what Fred does but far better look no further than N'Golo Kanté of Chelsea. Now we don't have him. But I definitely think this is an area we can definitely improve on. McTominay and Fred do a good job for now, but it is an area that we can improve on creatively.
Yes I agree on the fact we can improve on having both Fred and Scott on the pitch at the same time, I've been very vocal in regard to us needing a top level DM, I think it's the one position that will most improve the rest of the squad on the pitch. Somebody who can win the ball and steady the midfield / control the game.
That said I believe Fred's stats are better than Kante this season for the most part, and I'm a big Kante fan.
He has improved and is generally a good player for us, but anyone thinking 47m were well spent is off their mind. I think we could have got the same contribution from a 15-20m signing.
Kante is strangely out of sorts. The problem is that he has been played in different positions. Under Conte he was far more attacking minded. Now he seems to have lost some of his zip and is playing in a limbo position in the side. I don't think he truly knows what his role is. Fred does. One thing Fred needs to learn is his limitations. Shooting from outside the box is a limitation. So when Pogba dummies for Fred to shoot you think "oh no, not Fred". But every player has his limitations. I don't think we can argue against Fred and McT right now when the alternative is Matic who too often slows the game right now (sideways and backwards passing) when he is on. He hasn't got that dynamism that Fred and McT can give you. However, Matic has definitely improved this season and I have no doubt the likes of Carrick will be drumming into players to pass forwards wherever possible from midfield.
Like who? James was 15 million. Don’t even tell me his contribution has been equal to Fred’s.
In the modern game and world, 15 to 20 million gets you nothing more than a good Championship player.
Yeah agree. Especially the bolded, I would like to think Fred's improvement in this regard is in part due to Carrick's influence.
There has been a big shift away from sideways negative passing under Ole which is one of the things I really appreciate in our game now. For too long we were so negative.
I hope the club prioritise DM in the summer window for somebody in the Kante mould, would be a huge boost for the team imo.
I think if we put Fred on the market he would absolutely fetch what we paid for him, maybe even more. The guy is a fantastic player to have, does a lot of work for the team and it is very noticeable when he's not in the starting lineup.
I think the jury’s still out,but he is beginning to look like a good signing and that in itself is an acheivement considering where he was 12 months ago...
I agree with you regarding the sideways passing. It's very noticeable with Fred and Matic, that their first thought is to look forwards with their passing. We were very sideways passing a season or so ago, but gradually they are becoming more progressive.
Fred's attitude and energy is superb and he's developing under the coaching he's receiving. He just needs to add a couple of goals to his performances, but overall his improvement had been fantastic. I think if Ole is selecting his strongest 11, he is definitely selected.
Yeah, and the only way is up for him. Tbf to him though, he was already vastly improved by January and a fixture in the first team.
I honestly can't wait for that Fred long range cannonball goal to hit the net! It's coming and it will be a cause for celebration
He's been brilliant and that money is a bargain. What do people expect of Fred going forward? It's like expecting Dale Stephens to dribble past 6 players and put it into the top bin. His job is to break up the play and press, and he's terrific at it. Completely indispensable for us atm.
No matter how people rate his defensive work, I still think that rating his shooting is irrelevant to his position. If he was so good at shooting, you would have to question why he is even playing as a defensive midfielder in the first place; their chances will mostly be low Xg from distance. Looking at his goals at Shaktar, most of them actually came from inside the box.
His defensive work is pretty good, anyway. He made our third most tackles per game last season, after Wan Bissaka and Matic, and has made our second most tackles per game this season after Wan Bissaka. (2.1 last season; 2.7 this one).
In terms of interceptions per game, he was fourth last season with Mensah (albeit, he didn't play many games), Bissaka, and Maguire ahead of him. This season, he is third with Maguire and Mensah (played 1 game) above him (1.3 last season; 1.6 this one). So, on average he dispossesses the opposition 4.3 times per game (when you add tackles and interceptions), which is only beaten by Wan Bissaka who wins it 4.4 per game. Fred has also improved defensively on last season.
In comparison to other DMs, his dribbled past stats aren't all that different from others in the league. Allan gets dribbled past the most (2.5); Fred (2.1) is similar to Romeu (2), with Hojbjerg (1.8) being slightly better. Kante is the best (1.4).
Allan makes the most tackles per game with 3.4, Kante (2.9), Hojbjerg (2.9), Phillips (2.9), Fred (2.7) - Not much different really, other than Allan.
Interceptions - Kante (2.3), Rice (2.1), Neves (1.6), Jorginho (1.6), Fred (1.6)
Total tackles & Interceptions - Kante (5.2), Romeu (5), Phillips (4.5), Allan (4.4), Fred (4.3), Hojbjerg (4.2). Not really a huge amount of difference between Allan, Fred, Hojbjerg, and Phillips in terms of defending.
Fred actually seems to be pretty well rounded. Kante and Romeu are the best all-round, while other DMs seem to be distinctively better at either tackling or intercepting. Allan seems to be the best tackler, but interceptions seem low (only 1 per game).
Last edited:
Yeah it's much improved, only coaching can change that aspect of the game. To change the style of play and the players mindset on the pitch. Scott tries but his passing is hit and miss at times.
I agree that Fred get's into our strongest 11.
While I like what he brings to the side and recognize his importance particularly in the big games I don't think spending £50m on him was the best decision we made. He has technical and physical flaws that limit what we can achieve with him as a starting midfielder.
In my view he is good to have on the journey to becoming a top team but he is a type of player that wouldn't be good enough as a starter for a top team.
In my view he is good to have on the journey to becoming a top team but he is a type of player that wouldn't be good enough as a starter for a top team.
He's a starter for us and we're joint top of the Premier League. We bought Matic for only a few million less but I think Fred has been better.
For almost 50m I would expect a more well-rounded player. We overpaid but he's a good player, albeit with some weaknesses for his position (same can be said about Maguire). I would've liked it if he was a bit stronger on the ball (outmuscled too easily at times), a bit more savvy in terms of tackling, and a bigger passing range. The poor shooting I can live with because its not his job. Love the workrate though
He wins the ball back WAY more often than he loses it, probably on a 10/1 scale.
While yes he has the odd heavy touch or misplaces a pass, what he brings the team in energy is so important. He is always there making it a 2v1 situation and ends up scooping up the loose touches or passes that get spilt.
Since Fred has come into the team have we ever really properly lost a midfield battle?
I rate him, I really do.
Funny thing is, Fred is better when we don't have possession than when we do.
Funny thing is, Fred is better when we don't have possession than when we do.
Like I said I appreciate his qualities but his shortcomings limit what we can achieve with him and also mean that we have to field another defensive player to help him out. In my view he is not a very good No.8 because he lacks the playmaking and attacking skills but his defensive game is not strong enough to play him as a sole DM.
We are joint top, now but we could end the month out of the top four. Bottom line, we are doing well but we haven't achieved anything yet.
What we need are midfielders who can do more than just mark a man, put his foot in and run around a lot. We need box-to-boxers who can tackle and can spot a killer pass. We players with brain and brawn. We cannot return to having a squad where before Bruno we had just one player who 'sees the pictures' and had the creative nous, and that was Juan Mata. We made huge mistakes in the past with the likes of Bastian Schweinsteiger (who was over the hill), Fellaini and Schneiderlin who were limited in terms of their team play. Schweinsteiger and Schneiderlin was disastrous. No zest, no cutting edge. We cannot go back to that, and we are slowly, VERY slowly getting a team pattern that works for us. But still against the better teams we cannot keep the ball and dictate the play, and rely on counter attack. I like that we can switch the play and tactics, but you do need the players to do that, and I think they players are adapting.
But let us not see the likes of Cleverly and Alan Smith (my god!) and more recently Longstaff as the future. Because they are/were both limited.
What club would pay 50m pounds for Fred? I can't think of any to be fair.
Hojberg at Spurs? He cost bellow 20m and I would have him over Fred to be fair. Please don't start with that tiresome line "in the modern game", there are plenty of smart deals to be done in the modern game, but we do them so rarely in recent years. Spending 50m on Fred was and still is pretty ridiculous, considering his qualities and the type of player that he is.
I think we do lose them way too often for my liking. One example is our last game against Villa, our MFs apart from Pogba looked worse then Villa's double pivot. I know that Luiz and McGinn are both good players but it's one example from the top of my head.
Yeah agree with that.
Our recruitment now is vitally important (as it so often tends to be) for us to take that next step and become the finished article. We all know the weaknesses within the team and I'm confident that Ole can finish this rebuild if we get the right players to allow us to play exactly how we want to play and start dominating more in those bigger games.
The funny thing is that the other DMs in the league are no better than him at passing really.
Key Passes: Phillips (1.1), Neves (1.0), Romeu (0.9), Kante (0.8), Rice (0.8), Fred (0.8), Rodrigo (0.8) (I don't go by assists as it too reliant on the other player scoring e.g. Rashford messed up the one against Leicester that Fred passed through.)
Passing Success %: Rodrigo (91%), Matic (90% - only 6 games), Rice (87.6%), Kante (87.5%), Hojbjerg (87.3%), Fred (87%).
Total passes per game: Rodrigo (84), Hojbjerg (64), Romeu (63.1), Kante (61.4), Phillips (57.8), Fred (54.6)
% of passes per game that is a key pass: Phillips (1.9%), Rice (1.6%), Fred (1.4%), Romeu (1.4%), Kante (1.3%), Rodri (0.9%) - Fred actually is joint third with Romeu in the most creative defensive midfielders in the league, when you consider the number of passes per game.
What people seem to be asking for is a player who doesn't even exist in the Premier League, at the moment. Every single one of them has weaknesses, the best still being Kante all round. Fabinho cannot be included this season as his stats are those of a CB.
Fred is actually no worse than the best DMs in the league at tackling, intercepting, and passing. (I made a post earlier about his defensive stats being very similar overall).
If we are looking for a replacement, though. Rice looks good, considering he is only 21.
Last edited:
Seriously, you would swap Hojbjerg for Fred? Fred has been a better player than Hojbjerg for a long while imo.
Good analysis and I agree that we seem to find it hard to see all Fred’s good work on the ball.
However, his off the ball work is unparalleled in the PL in my view. The speed at which he recognises danger and closes down passing lanes is his most valuable attribute.
Statistics won’t show that but, more than anything, this ability contributes to the fact that we win more games when Fred is in the team.
But the manager still seemingly doesn't trust him to play as an actual DM without McTominay sitting next to him. And the eye test appears to back his judgment, at least for me: Fred racks up really good numbers because he's a very good midfield disruptor. He doesn't have the discipline to be the deepest midfielder by himself, only Matic has that ability out of United's five CM options right now.
I think there's a lot of similarity here between Fred and 2016/17 Herrera, who also had a great campaign and racked up amazing intercepting + tackling numbers (seem to remember him also outdoing Kante in a few metrics). But he was also prone to getting drawn out of position when played as the deepest midfielder, which is why his best performances throughout his United career came in a 4-3-3 next to Pogba / Fellaini, with Carrick / Matic behind him to cover.
Considering the difference in price, yeah I would.
Why is everyone comparing him to DM's when he never plays in that position. like 95% of his games are in a double pivot as a box to box midfielder with McTominay.
It's because most people play Fifa and think that's enough to understand football when they watch it.
Because he does play defensive midfield. In the end, a defensive midfielder is just a midfielder who has the main job to defend; it doesn't mean they can never get forward. You can defend in the opposition half, but you are still a defensive midfielder. Fred usually stays about halfway into the opposition half when we have sustained possession, and his main jobs are to pass it around, stop counter-attacks, and win the ball back high up the pitch if we lose it.
Occasionally, he does get closer to box, but most of the time he stays back because his main job is to distribute from a deeper position and to defend. McTominay plays in a similar way, but I do think he gets forward more. In the end, we do play with two mainly defensive midfielders
Fred's job isn't to score goals. If it was, he wouldn't be in the team. Fred's job isn't to be the main creator; his creation stats are good for a defensive midfielder but not for one who would have major attacking responsibilities. Again, he wouldn't be in the team. His job is mainly defensive, so he is a defensive midfielder.
I think people have bought too much into these overcomplicated positions now. In the end, they are just words for slightly adjusted positions, but the main roles exist for every single player. If your main aim is to attack as a midfielder, you are an attacking midfield. If your main aim is to defend as a midfielder, you are a defensive midfielder.
- Status