Frank Lampard | Burnley?

SilentWitness said:
I think he’s shown in multiple games that he can set up a side correctly and get results but his arrogance and tendency to go back to a style that he believes is right gets in the way and ultimately fails him. I think if he goes away and works on that he could be a decent manager for a championship club. As it is he’s made terrible career choices. He should never have gone to Chelsea when he did and he should never have come to us.

I don’t think it’s wrong to back a manager at the time when you watch a club and team every week and see the things they’ve done well within the context of what they’re working with. At the time Lampard was doing a decent job, thus my comments. I then admitted, several weeks ago, before the World Cup, that despite that, results catch up with you and you can’t hide from them and he was making the same mistakes over and over again which was fecking us. Now his position is absolutely untenable and he needs to go.

I don’t think he’s a terrible manager or nothing about him shows a bit of a manager. If that was the case he would have lost every game he played at the club. Is he good enough for Everton or the PL, no. But at the time he was worth the punt to see if he could prove that he was or not. He started decently this season and then we fell apart completely and he showed he wasn’t good enough ultimately. I will always try to be fair in my assessments of my own club and others.
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You've got the worst defence in the league, he can't setup anything. We all know the foundations of football management are 'keep it tight at the back' and build from there. Lampard thinks you build from the front and play 3 AM at the same time.

The only time Lampard has done okay was at Derby, where he had a bunch of Chelsea loanees and even then he did just okay before getting outclassed by better managers at the business end of the league.

I think the Everton fondness of Lampard is solely down to the fact he says the things you want to hear and believe. You wouldn't be in a relegation scrap if it wasn't for him, you've got experienced internationals in that side who should be performing better.
 
crossy1686 said:
You've got the worst defence in the league, he can't setup anything. We all know the foundations of football management are 'keep it tight at the back' and build from there. Lampard thinks you build from the front and play 3 AM at the same time.
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Nine teams in the league have conceded more goals than us so that’s not accurate.

The problem is that Lampard leaves gaping holes between his defence and the midfield and the attack. The problem is that his 4-3-3 isn’t good. The problem is that when we set up as a 5-3-2 which is the best formation for our current players and ability, we don’t have good enough players going forward to create goals and opportunities and Lampard hasn’t found the right balance to make it work in the meantime by plugging those gaps.

Also you can be fond of people but think they’re not good enough, but also be reminded of the good things they did. I don’t know why this forum is obsessed with an attitude where someone has to be absolutely shite with no leeway or an absolute god with no leeway.
 
crossy1686 said:
You've got the worst defence in the league, he can't setup anything. We all know the foundations of football management are 'keep it tight at the back' and build from there. Lampard thinks you build from the front and play 3 AM at the same time.

The only time Lampard has done okay was at Derby, where he had a bunch of Chelsea loanees and even then he did just okay before getting outclassed by better managers at the business end of the league.

I think the Everton fondness of Lampard is solely down to the fact he says the things you want to hear and believe. You wouldn't be in a relegation scrap if it wasn't for him, you've got experienced internationals in that side who should be performing better.
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Weirdly I personally think their issue is scoring goals, their defence isn't great either, but 15 goals in 18 games is amongst the lowest in the league bar Wolves I think.
 
SilentWitness said:
Nine teams in the league have conceded more goals than us so that’s not accurate.

The problem is that Lampard leaves gaping holes between his defence and the midfield and the attack. The problem is that his 4-3-3 isn’t good. The problem is that when we set up as a 5-3-2 which is the best formation for our current players and ability, we don’t have good enough players going forward to create goals and opportunities and Lampard hasn’t found the right balance to make it work in the meantime by plugging those gaps.

Also you can be fond of people but think they’re not good enough, but also be reminded of the good things they did. I don’t know why this forum is obsessed with an attitude where someone has to be absolutely shite with no leeway or an absolute god with no leeway.
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You can be fond of people all you want but you have a manager at the moment who will relegate Everton, I don't think that's even up for debate anymore, Lampard will send you down. I'm fond of toddlers but I wouldn't want them to be driving lorries on the motorway. At some point you have to ask for more, if he keeps his job then Everton fans are complicit in sending Everton down, you've allowed that to happen because you're 'fond' of him.
 
Rooney in Paris said:
I feel like you've defended him so much over the past year that you're incapable of admitting you're wrong, but... Nah. There's nothing about him that shows "a bit of manager". He's terrible and he's getting worse.
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In his first year with us there were signs of promise, the prime examples would be tactically outdoing Ten Hag on his own pitch and becoming the first ever manager to do a league double over Mourinho.

However there was ofcourse a lot of greeness to his management and over time the promise had to start dominating the rawness and unfortuently the total opposite happened.
 
Baneofthegame said:
Weirdly I personally think their issue is scoring goals, their defence isn't great either, but 15 goals in 18 games is amongst the lowest in the league bar Wolves I think.
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They're missing DCL but his performances have dropped off massively since Lamps came in. That defensive record was the one I was referring to. When you start shipping goals like that in a short space of time, the writing is on the wall.
 
DoubleDinhos said:
I don't understand where 'definitely will avoid relegation' comes from, tbh. The squad is really poor without Richarlison. The jury is still massively out on Lampard. The Goodison crowd helped a lot at the end of last season, but will the same dogged support appear if it becomes obvious last season wasn't an out-of-the-blue disaster and that, actually, it's going to be multiple seasons of battling relegation ahead?

Everton basically need to nail every signing because at the moment they've got the look about them of post-Benteke Villa. Staying up miraculously one season despite looking really poor throughout, only to then sell their main goalscorer and become the worst team in the league, relegated by February, the next.
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I called this before the season even started. I don't think Lampard's good enough but the pre-season optimism some had around an Everton squad minus their own quality attacker from the previous season was severely misplaced. Without a proven goalscorer Lampard has no chance of keeping them up, signing Maupay from a Brighton team famed for underperforming their attacking xG was baffling, as was relying on the fitness and form of Calvert Lewin who, outside of a six month run of form in empty stadiums, has never looked like anything other than a lower midtable striker and certainly not the type to hang your entire attacking system on.

I don't think its all on Lampard, but they only stayed up last season by virtue of dogged home performances in front of an energised desperate Goodison crowd. They were never getting that atmosphere back for a second Lampard relegation battle. The club either needs an exciting attacker signed or they need to sack Lampard just in the hopes they can attract a name big enough to get the fans back onside. A team that's getting harassed by fans in the streets outside the ground in January is going down.
 
crossy1686 said:
You can be fond of people all you want but you have a manager at the moment who will relegate Everton, I don't think that's even up for debate anymore, Lampard will send you down. I'm fond of toddlers but I wouldn't want them to be driving lorries on the motorway. At some point you have to ask for more, if he keeps his job then Everton fans are complicit in sending Everton down, you've allowed that to happen because you're 'fond' of him.
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I’ve said for a couple of weeks now that Lampard should go and the results weren’t good enough.
 
DoubleDinhos said:
I called this before the season even started. I don't think Lampard's good enough but the pre-season optimism some had around an Everton squad minus their own quality attacker from the previous season was severely misplaced. Without a proven goalscorer Lampard has no chance of keeping them up, signing Maupay from a Brighton team famed for underperforming their attacking xG was baffling, as was relying on the fitness and form of Calvert Lewin who, outside of a six month run of form in empty stadiums, has never looked like anything other than a lower midtable striker and certainly not the type to hang your entire attacking system on.
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DCL didn’t just have a good six months. His trajectory was quite clear. He went from 8 > 8 > 15 > 21 goals a season. He then started the next season with 3 goals in the first 3 games and then the injury problems began and he has not been the same since. It was absolutely wrong to rely on him, agreed, but let’s not start pretending that he wasn’t on a clear pathway to being an established very good striker in the PL. He’s only 25 so his 21 goals a season came when he was 23. He had plenty of room and time to grow but sadly I don’t think he will ever be the same again due to those injury issues.

I agree with the other parts of your post though that it’s not just about Lampard and the problems are bigger than him.
 
SilentWitness said:
I’ve said for a couple of weeks now that Lampard should go and the results weren’t good enough.
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I know you have, and I'm not necessarily disagreeing with you. We're all still fond of Solskjaer for the most part but we got to the point where we recognised he wasn't good for us. I'm just surprised he's still in a job to be honest, you'd think he'd be gone before the midweek fixtures.
 
SilentWitness said:
DCL didn’t just have a good six months. His trajectory was quite clear. He went from 8 > 8 > 15 > 21 goals a season. He then started the next season with 3 goals in the first 3 games and then the injury problems began and he has not been the same since. It was absolutely wrong to rely on him, agreed, but let’s not start pretending that he wasn’t on a clear pathway to being an established very good striker in the PL. He’s only 25 so his 21 goals a season came when he was 23. He had plenty of room and time to grow but sadly I don’t think he will ever be the same again due to those injury issues.

I agree with the other parts of your post though that it’s not just about Lampard and the problems are bigger than him.
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Yes, that's fair. I was being harsh on Calvert-Lewin considering his age. I do think it smacks of terrible planning (and bad luck) that those in charge thought he could be the central attacking star though because his game is entirely about scoring goals and hold-up play. He can't create his own chances and he gets every goal within the width of the goalposts essentially.
 
Oldyella said:
It's Rooney who would be the manager who takes them down though if that happened, free hit or not.
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Yeah but Rooney's already proven he can mix it down there and it's a more exciting appointment with potential than a Dyche or something like that. If they go down, they go down, I'd trust Rooney to get it right over time though, even if they go down.
 
The Everton fans reaction is worse than the Blackburn fans with Venkys/Steve Kean .
 
crossy1686 said:
They're missing DCL but his performances have dropped off massively since Lamps came in. That defensive record was the one I was referring to. When you start shipping goals like that in a short space of time, the writing is on the wall.
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I agree, at least be hard to beat if you can't score, like I said in a separate thread, he looks defeated anyway.
 
DoubleDinhos said:
Yes, that's fair. I was being harsh on Calvert-Lewin considering his age. I do think it smacks of terrible planning (and bad luck) that those in charge thought he could be the central attacking star though because his game is entirely about scoring goals and hold-up play. He can't create his own chances and he gets every goal within the width of the goalposts essentially.
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I don’t disagree. It’s no coincidence that his best form came with someone like Richy who could play off of him, a top full back in Digne and an assist king in James. Now we are devoid of any of that.
 
prateik said:
The Everton fans reaction is worse than the Blackburn fans with Venkys/Steve Kean .
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Blackburn fans had a very good point though. It was scandalous what was happening to their club.
 
Do I think Lampard is a great manager? No

Do I think he could become one? Not seen anything to suggest great but in the right environment I don’t see why he couldn’t be a competent PL boss.

The issue here is Everton is certainly not the right environment currently and can’t see how that changes with the current ownership and structure.

This leaves the whole situation at an impasse.

The club may stay up with a new manager bounce or Lampard could get things going. What do you stick with? The owners aren’t going to vanish immediately so you have to think of ways to save the season.

Going down with the new stadium would be a sickening prospect however the reset may actually help long term. Lampard could stay and the owners become encouraged to sell.
 
My take on Lampard is that his ego and standing got far too ahead of him and he’s taken on bigger jobs than his experience and ability to this point in time can handle. In that way, he’s learning on the job and if things aren’t going well, that quickly spirals out of control with too many things simultaneously in need of address for anything but a veteran to handle.

The ways to circumvent that usually consist of surrounding yourself with experience and wise heads who can not only guide but preempt pitfalls and have contingencies in place that ensure the minor issues remain exactly that. Lampard is in over his head due to so many issues going beyond his grasp - this might be the coaching era, but you still have to have man-management skills across the board and not just the ability instruct tactics on game day.

He needs to swallow his pride, drop a level or two and really learn the game from the ground up otherwise he’ll just repeat the same cycle at any other club in tiers above that is silly enough to hire him.
 
Fortitude said:
My take on Lampard is that his ego and standing got far too ahead of him and he’s taken on bigger jobs than his experience and ability to this point in time can handle. In that way, he’s learning on the job and if things aren’t going well, that quickly spirals out of control with too many things simultaneously in need of address for anything but a veteran to handle.

The ways to circumvent that usually consist of surrounding yourself with experience and wise heads who can not only guide but preempt pitfalls and have contingencies in place that ensure the minor issues remain exactly that. Lampard is in over his head due to so many issues going beyond his grasp - this might be the coaching era, but you still have to have man-management skills across the board and not just the ability instruct tactics on game day.

He needs to swallow his pride, drop a level or two and really learn the game from the ground up otherwise he’ll just repeat the same cycle at any other club in tiers above that is silly enough to hire him.
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I feel he should have forged a career abroad after leaving us.

Overachieve at (to pluck a random example) FC Twente then you'll potentially get a top 6/8 job in the Bundesliga, do well there you may get a team like Sporting Lisbon, Benfica or Valencia interested, succeed there and all of a sudden he's back in contention for top jobs.

Ofcourse it's not always as linear as that but it seems to be a lot easier for managers to prove themselves outside the PL. Even if you overachieve at a "lesser" clubs you may not get a top 6 chance.
 
I can’t recall which pundit said it recently in a podcast, but the basic gist from players and coaches was that Everton are easy to play against and very predictable. Too many straight lines and easy to read gameplans. They look in real trouble.
 
Dancfc said:
I feel he should have forged a career abroad after leaving us.

Overachieve at (to pluck a random example) FC Twente then you'll potentially get a top 6/8 job in the Bundesliga, do well there you may get a team like Sporting Lisbon, Benfica or Valencia interested, succeed there and all of a sudden he's back in contention for top jobs.

Ofcourse it's not always as linear as that but it seems to be a lot easier for managers to prove themselves outside the PL. Even if you overachieve at a "lesser" clubs you may not get a top 6 chance.
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For sure, any route that has him learn fundamentals, not just in coaching but also in handling all the stressful variables that pop up and interfere with the hands on stuff. You even see it with quite experienced lower level managers that coming up to the PL is startling and overwhelming and throws so many into sink or swim mode where they betray their principles just trying to hang on to the job, let alone expressing themselves in the manner that got them there in the first place.

Potter is experiencing the same thing and his leap is intra-league, so it's not just a Lampard thing, rather those increments are usually vital, and even with them, there are no guarantees, but at least you then know your core fundamentals and have your own go-to's in place rather than hoping things will magically turn themselves around.

Lampard's name also precedes him, so he can't just get on with things - the spotlight on him is intense and so is the scrutiny. Someone like Rooney took all this to note and is making sure he takes his time and irons himself out as a coach before making his foray into the shark tank.
 
I presume Kenwright is in the firing line because he facilitated Moshiri? I'm not up on the current shenanigans, we've got arseholes of our own to deal with.
 
If I were an Everton fan, I would be F5ing the shit out of my keyboard to see news on his sacking.

They sticking with him?
 
LawCharltonBest said:
If I were an Everton fan, I would be F5ing the shit out of my keyboard to see news on his sacking.

They sticking with him?
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Hopefully :drool:

And @SilentWitness

Respectfully, there’s a massive difference between a few clowns harassing Woodward and 100s of your fans surrounding players cars, especially when they’ve got their children in the back.

I’ve lived in both Manchester and studied in Liverpool for 3 years, in fact I had digs 20 minutes drive from Goodison. There’s something in the water in Liverpool, let’s just say that. They’re a different breed of nasty when things aren’t going their way.

And I’m pretty sure it’s ok to say this on a Manchester Utd supporter’s forum, I mean no offence to you as you seem like a nice person.


SilentWitness said:
It’s quite scandalous what Moshiri has done too.
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What, spending hundreds of millions on new players and a lovely new stadium on the docks? Yeah, really scandalous that.

Moshiri’s mistake was to allow BK have so much sway at the club. He should have got rid of him straight away. Kenwright is everything wrong with Everton - he symbolises mediocrity. Also, Moshiri should have hired better football men to run the club. But apart from that, he’s invested huge sums of money into the club and deserves more respect, surely?
 
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Mr. Robot said:
Hopefully :drool:

And @SilentWitness

Respectfully, there’s a massive difference between a few clowns harassing Woodward and 100s of your fans surrounding players cars, especially when they’ve got their children in the back.

I’ve lived in both Manchester and studied in Liverpool for 3 years, in fact I had digs 20 minutes drive from Goodison. There’s something in the water in Liverpool, let’s just say that. They’re a different breed of nasty when things aren’t going their way.

And I’m pretty sure it’s ok to say this on a Manchester Utd supporter’s forum, I mean no offence to you as you seem like a nice person.

tldr; Scousers are always gonna Scouse.
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You also had loads of fans arrested for violence and fans that stormed onto the pitch before a game. You also had Rashford come out last year saying he'd been constantly heckled and threatened by your fans and now he's the best thing about the club again. I think the whole scousers are gonna scouse thing is a bit rich and the whole our fans are better than yours is weird. People should just accept that all fanbases contain cretins and we should all be agree that our clubs are better off without them.
 
SilentWitness said:
You also had loads of fans arrested for violence and fans that stormed onto the pitch before a game. You also had Rashford come out last year saying he'd been constantly heckled and threatened by your fans and now he's the best thing about the club again. I think the whole scousers are gonna scouse thing is a bit rich and the whole our fans are better than yours is weird. People should just accept that all fanbases contain cretins and we should all be agree that our clubs are better off without them.
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Yes I agree all clubs have fans who are idiots. But the entire football world knows what the Scousers are like - I don’t want to delve into history here because we all know what we’ll find. Let’s just say that Scousers are a different breed to your usual idiots.

And I’ve added more to my original post re: Moshiri etc.
 
Mr. Robot said:
What, spending hundreds of millions on new players and a lovely new stadium on the docks? Yeah, really scandalous that.

Moshiri’s mistake was to allow BK have so much sway at the club. He should have got rid of him straight away. Kenwright is everything wrong with Everton - he symbolises mediocrity. Also, Moshiri should have hired better football men to run the club. But apart from that, he’s invested huge sums of money into the club and deserves more respect, surely?
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Why does spending money = deserving respect? The money he has spent has led to us being in a disgustingly poor position in the league and financially. We operate on losses, consistently due to his ownership. There are multiple interviews and word from ex-DoFs and employees who state that Moshiri ignored them on several occasions, did what he wanted and offered obscene contracts to players who shouldn't have been given it and also funneled certain deals through. There are also several reports leaking out that he's a front and there are dodgy links to Usmanov, with Usmanov apparently attending manager interviews and being an unofficial owner of the club. If you pump money into the club and consistently not listen to the football people then no, you've not done a good job. The value of the club is consistently declining. It is a classic example of be careful what you wish for.

Mr. Robot said:
Yes I agree all clubs have fans who are idiots. But the entire football world knows what the Scousers are like - I don’t want to delve into history here because we all know what we’ll find. Let’s just say that Scousers are a different breed to your usual idiots.

And I’ve added more to my original post re: Moshiri etc.
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You'll find that you are generalising a whole city and fanbase, yes.
 
Pintu said:
He wasn't given the time, though.

Looking at this, only him and Sam didn't last 38 games total (the equivalent of one season).... And Lampard has now done worse than Rafa.




This includes Cup games....
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The fans wanted him. They could have hired that Portuguese chap (name escapes me) but the fans didn’t have the trust in the owner or the vision for that and demanded Lampard because he was a sexier name.
Let them lie in the bed they made.
 
Plant0x84 said:
The fans wanted him. They could have hired that Portuguese chap (name escapes me) but the fans didn’t have the trust in the owner or the vision for that and demanded Lampard because he was a sexier name.
Let them lie in the bed they made.
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Is it Fonseca you are talking about? Ex manager of Roma, now at Lille?

I think it is more complicated than just wanting Lampard. They are angry at the owners (Moshiri and whoever is behind him). I believe they have a point regarding the owners. They could have trusted Silva back in 2019 when they sacked him or taken a gamble on Duncan Ferguson. They did not, and you could understand Moshiri there; they were in a relegation battle and had the opportunity to sign Ancelotti for what looked like a promising long-term project (at the very least, you knew he'd keep you away from relegation). Something went wrong towards the end of his second season as they missed Europe, but it was still a very positive season. 30 points ahead of the relegation zone and only a few points behind the CL spots.

Then, when Ancelotti left (he kind of f***ed them there), they could have brought someone to build on what he was doing. Probably the chance to take a gamble on Duncan this time, he'd been working closely with Ancelotti for 18 months and he knows the club inside out... With Duncan, they'd likely still have Digne and James and their attacking threat would look very different with these two...
 
I'd say new manager asap but just not sure who they would bring in, but it seems they need to make a change. They are close enough, that a couple of good new manager bounce wins, could push them up the table. If they leave it much longer they could start to be cut adrift. I know the club is in a bit of a crisis, but they have some good players. The names listed by the bookies hardly inspire much confidence. Maybe caretaker until end of the season....
 
@SilentWitness I completely get the fans anger at Moshiri and the money thrown down the drain. I also agree that Lampard is not the man to turn it around, but who would you take in his place?
 
Plant0x84 said:
The fans wanted him. They could have hired that Portuguese chap (name escapes me) but the fans didn’t have the trust in the owner or the vision for that and demanded Lampard because he was a sexier name.
Let them lie in the bed they made.
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Wasn't really like that. We weren't exactly keen on either but we had limited choices. Most wanted us to try and get someone like Potter or a foreign manager like Favre initially. When we were limited to the two it became clear Lampard would be the favourite amongst fans because Pereira decided to go on SSN and give an interview before he had even been appointed which quite obviously isn't going to adhere you to the supporters.

The Boy said:
@SilentWitness I completely get the fans anger at Moshiri and the money thrown down the drain. I also agree that Lampard is not the man to turn it around, but who would you take in his place?
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Unfortunately it is a situation where it is difficult to know what or who is the right answer. People would look to someone like Dyche because they believe he is a relegation expert but he was relegated with Burnley before and was heading that way with them before he was sacked so I don't think he's the specialist everyone sees him as. I think we should do what we should have done when Benitez was sacked and try our hardest to tempt someone like Ange at Celtic to come (which we should have done with Potter), as he is a manager who is engaging with modern footbal and taps into the markets that we should be targeting - Asia, where you can pick up excellent talent for a fraction of the price that we have been paying in the past couple of years. I know there is a very slim chance, even impossible chance, of that happening but I do hope the appointment is someone with experience but also who can give us a long term future in the best case scenario. I know people mention Rooney but his lack of experience is the only thing I would question.
 
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