Formations to fit in Rooney, Van Persie and Mata?

Van Gaal is a specialist of 4-3-3 or 4-2-3-1
Sometimes he can play 3-5-2, but it really depends on his team and I can't see a team playing in this formation in CL for example....

Well, according to me, 4-2-3-1 is the perfect balance for our team, and our players quality. But who knows maybe with 4/5 new players we will maybe change that.

In order to accommodate them I would play a 4-3-2-1 or diamond formation

---------------------------------De Gea----------------------------------
Rafael---------------------Evans--------XXXXXXX-------------------Shaw
---------------------------------Carrick----------------------------------
------------------------Kroos------------XXXXXXX-----------------------
----------------------------------Mata-----------------------------------
----------------------------Rooney------RVP-----------------------------

But, in a 4-2-3-1 we can fit them, only if we play high on the pitch, with possession, Rooney coming from the left and the left back behind him running down the wing....

---------------------------------De Gea----------------------------------
Rafael---------------------Evans--------XXXXXXX-------------------Shaw
---------------------------Kroos--------Carrick--------------------------
XXXXXX--------------------------Mata-----------------------------Rooney
----------------------------------RVP-----------------------------------

A 3-5-2 can fit us ?

---------------------------------De Gea----------------------------------
------------------Jones-----------Evans--------Smalling------------------
Rafael-----------------Kroos--------------Carrick----------------------Shaw
----------------------------------Mata-----------------------------------
----------------------------Rooney------RVP-----------------------------
 
goldenstatesplash said:
---------------------------
-----------CDM
---Mata---Cleverley--Kagawa
-------RVP------Rooney----

Mata and Kagawa provide the width from shallow and Cleverley provides the quick passes in the attacking third. Fullbacks don't overlap unless it's an overload and the opposition isn't deep.

I will admit this group of players is a bit of a dilemma. Mata was the signing that we probably should have made when we signed Kagawa.. For me, since signed Kagawa and if we aren't letting SK go we've made the Mata signing quite pointless. I have always maintained it was the right signing at the wrong time.
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Mata and Kagawa don't provide width, that's half the problem. Mata needs to play centrally. Kagawa can do a shift on the left and may work better with Shaw in the team, but another winger would be better, and he should rotate with Mata. Cleverley shouldn't be anywhere near the starting team, let alone playing centrally behind two strikers. That line up would get slaughtered.
 
I guess it's what we want to do with any width that gets created. If it's to bombard the box with crosses, then yes, I guess a proper winger would be better to provide natural width.

But if it's to stretch the defence a bit from the middle and make creative plays there (with some crossing when it suits), then Mata/Kagawa should be fine.
 
Justin said:
I guess it's what we want to do with any width that gets created. If it's to bombard the box with crosses, then yes, I guess a proper winger would be better to provide natural width.

But if it's to stretch the defence a bit from the middle and make creative plays there (with some crossing when it suits), then Mata/Kagawa should be fine.
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Exactly what I am talking about. 4-4-2 of the late 90's and early 00's is dead. Athletic advantage beyond the fullback one on one is no longer a viable offense. When used as a possible outlet at an overload it's definitely a weapon to have in the armory but building a team around wingers getting beyond and putting the ball in is all but dead.
septic said:
Mata and Kagawa don't provide width, that's half the problem. Mata needs to play centrally. Kagawa can do a shift on the left and may work better with Shaw in the team, but another winger would be better, and he should rotate with Mata. Cleverley shouldn't be anywhere near the starting team, let alone playing centrally behind two strikers. That line up would get slaughtered.
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Well of course it would get slaughtered. It doens't have a keeper or a defensive 5.
Mata and Kagawa don't provide width when playing stereotypical 'wide winger' roles, that was plain to see last season with how Moyes had them playing. How we implement the system next season will play a huge role in how we go about it. If they can play a David Silva type role where the main aim is to support the central pass and move player while providing ball movement from central areas out to the flank in an overload situation then they will be more than sufficient. It's probably the better strategy when setting the team up with those two players. Tom Cleverley will more than be fine playing the central pass and move role as long as our offence stays fluid. He'll not need to extend his passing range beyond 15 yards if he has the two moving in front of him. All he would need to do in transition is provide the outlet to pass and move then link back up with them. He's got more than enough ability to play forward passes beyond the two outlet players if given the opportunity.

If we can find the proper fast closing ball winner and put him in that central area and allow him to win possession and free up the options in front of him then we'll benefit by being able to deploy a front 5 (in a 4-1 or 3-2) instead of a front four (in a 3-1 or a 2-1-1).

It's all about that ball winner from here imo. Carrick just doesn't close and tackle fast enough and doesn't play transition passes quickly enough and offer a movement option when he does so making our midfield play to static and allowing the wide players to be manned up in transition. It's all about advancing the ball in the midfield third taking as many players out of the equation as possible without resorting to medium/long range passes.
 
RvP is only effective as a number 9. Any formation with one of Kagawa, Mata or Rooney as winger means we have a wide player with little pace. Mata's best position is behind the striker-as is Kagawa's. They both can play as inverted wingers, but width then must come from someone other than the fullbacks. Rooney on the wing hasn't worked well in the past-and we need a MF to link-up our back line with attacking three up-front. Unless Rooney transitions to deep-lying playmaker, I don't see how you accommodate all of them.
 
I still can't find any other way to fit in Rooney, RVP and Mata together in Van Gaal favor's formation. Unless if we play one of them out of position like Rooney as a winger.

De Gea
Rafa Smalling Evans Shaw
Strootman Carrick Mata
Wing Striker Wing

(Sorry about Strootman and Shaw in the starting eleven even though we haven't sign them, Let's just say if we signed them since we've been strongly link with them right now)
 
If we can keep the ball better higher up the pitch and have a CM/DM who can handle defending quick counter attacks, it could easily work. You would also need two energetic fullbacks (Shaw and Rafael). Rafael is injured a lot and we might not even sign Shaw.
 
3-4-1-2, with Kagawa going back to Dortmund along with 15-20 million for Hummels.

-----Rooney----RVP-------(Welbeck, Chicharito)
----------Mata--------------(Januzaj)
Shaw-Kroos-Fellaini--Rafael
-Evans-Carrick-Hummels----

Don't think it's a great idea, though.
 
De Gea
Valencia Smalling Evans Shaw
Carrick Kroos
Rooney
Mata Van Persie Januzaj

Or

De Gea
Rafael Smalling Evans Shaw
Carrick
Valencia------Kroos
Mata
Rooney Van Persie
​
Frankly speaking paper formations do not mean anything.Tactically all three can easily accommodated by a good manager.
 
The only formation that will allow all three to play in their best positions that I can think of is 532 (or 352 depending how you look at it)

DDG
Valencia Jones New CB Evans Shaw
New DM Herrera
Mata
RVP Rooney
 
septic said:
Mata and Kagawa don't provide width, that's half the problem. Mata needs to play centrally. Kagawa can do a shift on the left and may work better with Shaw in the team, but another winger would be better, and he should rotate with Mata. Cleverley shouldn't be anywhere near the starting team, let alone playing centrally behind two strikers. That line up would get slaughtered.
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To be honest, all of cleverly anderson fletcher fellaini nani and young should not be anywhere near the starting 11
 
Yeah like Sparky Rhinoceros, I'm not really convinced there is a formation that suits all 3, but if there is, it's probably the 3-4-3... which would probably be very unwise in many premiership matches and doesn't suit our lack of central defenders very well.
 
A 343 could work with Rooney and Mata the inside forwards, but you'd be relying on the wing backs with a lot of the width and pace in the squad. Ander + Vidal/new CM as pure energetic box-to-box players and a few ball playing CB's, Evans + Vermaelen/Hummels.
 
Chesterlestreet said:
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This will be the formation, it will not be 4-2-3-1 as most post on here, but instead as you have illustrated 4-2-1-3 where the wide players perform as very attacking wingers. It is Louis van Gaal's preference and he has a fantastic team to do this, Rooney will be a key player and due to his versatility Louis van Gaal will be confident of getting him to perform his role very well.

I can't wait, I honestly think Rooney will emerge as one of the best LWs in the world next season. Even though I accept he is best centrally, I think he is not incredibly well suited to any one position but capable of doing a good job in several so he has been crying out for a manager that can limit his deficiencies for that position but also adapt his strengths to it.

Why I think he will perform in Louis' 4-2-1-3 as a LW:

  • Louis van Gaal refers to his 3 forwards (LW, ST, RW) as his three strikers, even the wide men aggressively attack and so are tasked with less defensive responsibility than a LM or even a LAM.
  • Louis van Gaal loves to switch play, he will use Rooney to draw players in only to switch the ball to the other flank where the right winger can get a one on one, something Louis loves.
  • He will still help defend on that flank and do a brilliant job as he becomes accustomed to the role.
  • His loss of pace and stamina is probably overrated.
  • His close control and dribbling might not be at the level we would want from a winger however he should be more than capable of beating his man but further, his range of passing is such when he can't dribble his way past a man he'll just move the ball on and look for space.
  • Although he will be tasked with providing width, in the final third he will be able to cut in and shoot like Robben, something he could get some goals from.
  • He will arrive at the back post for headers.
  • His first touch, agility and close control lets him down centrally as a number 10, out wide although still important attributes of a winger, it will be less exposed as he will have other tools to overcome these limitations.
 
Empire said:
This will be the formation, it will not be 4-2-3-1 as most post on here, but instead as you have illustrated 4-2-1-3 where the wide players perform as very attacking wingers. It is Louis van Gaal's preference and he has a fantastic team to do this, Rooney will be a key player and due to his versatility Louis van Gaal will be confident of getting him to perform his role very well.

I can't wait, I honestly think Rooney will emerge as one of the best LWs in the world next season. Even though I accept he is best centrally, I think he is not incredibly well suited to any one position but capable of doing a good job in several so he has been crying out for a manager that can limit his deficiencies for that position but also adapt his strengths to it.

Why I think he will perform in Louis' 4-2-1-3 as a LW:

  • Louis van Gaal refers to his 3 forwards (LW, ST, RW) as his three strikers, even the wide men aggressively attack and so are tasked with less defensive responsibility than a LM or even a LAM.
  • Louis van Gaal loves to switch play, he will use Rooney to draw players in only to switch the ball to the other flank where the right winger can get a one on one, something Louis loves.
  • He will still help defend on that flank and do a brilliant job as he becomes accustomed to the role.
  • His loss of pace and stamina is probably overrated.
  • His close control and dribbling might not be at the level we would want from a winger however he should be more than capable of beating his man but further, his range of passing is such when he can't dribble his way past a man he'll just move the ball on and look for space.
  • Although he will be tasked with providing width, in the final third he will be able to cut in and shoot like Robben, something he could get some goals from.
  • He will arrive at the back post for headers.
  • His first touch, agility and close control lets him down centrally as a number 10, out wide although still important attributes of a winger, it will be less exposed as he will have other tools to overcome these limitations.
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Rooney is a terrible dribbler for a winger and is far from "more than capable of beating his man". Rooney has less successful dribbles per game than Shaw and centrally it is much easier to rack up dribbling statistics as you can go any side of the defender. Out wide you really have to beat your opponent in a 1 vs 1, sometimes even a 1 vs 2 situation which is a lot more difficult.

The rest I agree with though, Rooney out wide is probably our easiest way to fit them all in the team even if Rooney isn't a top 20 winger in the world of course as it isn't his position.
 
My theory - which is sketchy at best, I gladly admit - is that Rooney should feel comfortable enough in the sort of "winger" role we're talking about here. He often drifts into wide-ish positions naturally. And his general tendency to drift wouldn't be a problem either - in fact, you want drifting and changing of positions from the three "strikers" in this system.

I think what it all comes down to is less about Rooney's football and more about his - for lack of a better word - mentality. Will he take well to LVG? If he does take well enough to him and LVG is keen on using him (another question here - some seem to think LVG isn't really keen on Rooney and would prefer to sell him), I think many could be in for a surprise. I hope so.
 
Annahnomoss said:
Rooney is a terrible dribbler for a winger and is far from "more than capable of beating his man". Rooney has less successful dribbles per game than Shaw and centrally it is much easier to rack up dribbling statistics as you can go any side of the defender. Out wide you really have to beat your opponent in a 1 vs 1, sometimes even a 1 vs 2 situation which is a lot more difficult.

The rest I agree with though, Rooney out wide is probably our easiest way to fit them all in the team even if Rooney isn't a top 20 winger in the world of course as it isn't his position.
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I think Rooney has shown he is more than capable of beating his man.

 
Empire said:
I think Rooney has shown he is more than capable of beating his man.

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All this is Rooney of a few years back though. Nobody can deny back when he was 20-26 he could beat a man for fun, but he seem's to have lost that ability these days.
 
I see a lot of people see Rooney as a left winger under van Gaal. Personally I'm not so sure if he's better in that role than Kagawa or Welbeck.
 
Adam-Utd said:
All this is Rooney of a few years back though. Nobody can deny back when he was 20-26 he could beat a man for fun, but he seem's to have lost that ability these days.
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Borys said:
28 year old Rooney is different to this 22 year old from this vid.
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I would say he has developed a preference for passing and then moving either into space or if the pass is to the flanks then getting into the box therefore he doesn't try to take his man on, I would not say he has lost his ability.

He is playing centrally don't forget where things can get congested, furthermore if he loses the ball then it's not like we have much of a central midfield to protect the defence, his lack of dribbling centrally is sensible. Our team in general over the past few seasons have been quite boring, keeping things simple, with a weak central midfield it becomes function without beauty, you just can't lose the ball in certain areas.

On the wing I would expect him to take more players on, he might not be world class at that but he is good enough, his other skills should help him perform the role well overall.
 
Wide forward in 4-3-3 and just off RvP in 3-5-2. That's the two options I see for Rooney.
 
I hope Wayne loses 20kgs in the next week or two, then perhaps he could be a good winger :lol:
 
4-3-3, 4-5-1, 4-2-3-1, and 4-3-2-1, would all work. Thats without doing something weird like going to a back 3 or back 5.
 
The 4-4-2 diamond, Rooney and RvP as strikers and Mata as a CAM
 
Walters_19_MuFc said:
We talking about the same guy who covered the most distance playing on the wing against Italy? :confused:
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It's not about running backwards.. its about running forward and trying to beat a man. He's lost his dribbling abilities and slows the game down
 
Annahnomoss said:
Acceleration is the forgotten hero in terms of dribbling ability, top pace is not as important for dribbling and more important for making off the ball runs in to open space.
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No, it seems that ball control is the forgotten hero in terms of dribbling ability. You can as quick as Usain Bolt, if you have no sort of ball control, then it's pointless.
 
Walters_19_MuFc said:
No, it seems that ball control is the forgotten hero in terms of dribbling ability. You can as quick as Usain Bolt, if you have no sort of ball control, then it's pointless.
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Your question was would pace improve his dribbling abilities and, well, acceleration would improve his dribbling abilities a lot. Would ball control and better dribbling technique improve his dribbling ability as well? Of course.
 
Annahnomoss said:
Your question was would pace improve his dribbling abilities and, well, acceleration would improve his dribbling abilities a lot. Would ball control and better dribbling technique improve his dribbling ability as well? Of course.
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Not necessarily. If you have great acceleration but the touch of an elephant, than you can't dribble. I think we both know what attribute is needed more, in order to have better dribbling ability.
 
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