Absolutely, these extremely organised defensive tactics and uber athletes are stifling the limited exciting players we have.
I blame Jose and to a lesser degree Pep for it.
Football is boring and lacks real superstars
- Thread starter Scottynaldinho
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I blame Jose and to a lesser degree Pep for it.
I think too much football is a part of the reason. Players like Kane and Bellingham are obviously world class talents but they look kind of dead on their feet this tournament, despite the goals.
Interesting how you mention Spain, because one could argue they were the ones that ushered this era of tactical dominance. That team that won the Euros and WC from 2008 to 2012 were so incredibly boring but effective.
Now roll forward to this tournament and they are the only team worth watching, while having largely diverted from that model, with throwback wingers like Williams, Yamal and proper all action midfielders like Rodri.
Spain look like the team to beat. If they go on to have great success once more with this style, maybe we'll see another step change in style being ushered in.
These two things are quite contradictory because Guardiola moved the game away from athleticism and big men whenever he emerged, focusing on technique over physicality and then it's come back in a big way, if anything the Klopp influence is more an impact on the athleticism part due to saying things like 'the greatest playmaker is the press'. I do agree he has led to a lot of safe football in possession and poor imitators though, but quite a lot of the football in this tournament has been more Mourinho than Guardiola.
One of the worst things to happen very recently, last 2-3 years is the return of very defensive full-backs or centre-backs as full-backs. I remember full-backs only 5 or 6 years ago in the CL semi-finals and they were all arguably the top 2-3 most creative players in their teams at the time - Alexander-Arnold for Liverpool, Marcelo for Real Madrid, Kolarov for Roma and Kimmich for Bayern. Now the likes of Walker are revered despite doing nothing in attack and Pep gives up on Cancelo because he's too attacking.
2000s we're great actually, a bit of a downturn from 2004 to 2007 but otherwise plenty of great players and great teams.
Edit: maybe it's part nostalgia on my part but u stand by that.
I love watching Guardiola teams and find them very entertaining. His good copy cats like Arteta, de Zerbi and of course Alonso are also exciting to watch. I also think Spain played the best and most attractive football in the history of international football.
But the average quality of decisions as well as athleticism has improved immensely since the 00s and I think that puts many off who like plays that were largely cut out of a lack of efficiency.
But the average quality of decisions as well as athleticism has improved immensely since the 00s and I think that puts many off who like plays that were largely cut out of a lack of efficiency.
It’s not a contradiction. The two things are true. Guardiola has moved the very top of football away from athleticism (well, reduced the emphasis anyway), and the rest have increased it to try and keep pace.
Football tends to ebb and flow, like the early 1990s were so bad that they needed to change the rules, but then by the late 90s and turn of the century the game was in great shape before Mourinho and Benitez got their hand on things.
What often happens is one way of playing is popular but then becomes stale and needs something to beat it. The early tika taka days were great and everyone was enjoying it until the Del Bosque Spain days of defensive possession people were hating until Bayern smashed Barca in that CL semi-final in 2013. Some of the best matches I've seen were in the mid to late 2010s when high pressing was emerging as the dominant way, the tempo of some of the City-Liverpool games was insane. But then once everyone starts applying the same tactic, it quickly becomes stale and teams make plans to counteract it and you get shit on a stick games like Arsenal-City this year. Needs something new to emerge to beat it again.
Spain (08/10) were awfully boring to watch, I certainly think you are in the minority here. The 2010 team didn't even play with a striker.
They tried to copy the Pep Barcelona possession style but didn't have an attacker like Messi, Eto'o or Henry to replicate it, so you had a team mindlessly keeping possession all game.
That world cup was a shit show and Bruno and other players called it as such at the time.
All about systems which suffocate individuality.
Good point, I think that final was one of the best games of all time. But it's one game.
Well, Spain won Euro 2008, WC 2010 and Euro 2012, so I'm not too sure about the "mindlessly" bit.
Athleticism was very important for Barca-era Guardiola due to his pressing. He was more interested in the endurance and workrate side of things rather than size and speed though.
Peps style of football is incredibly impressive in a technical sense. But I don’t know how anyone would find it attractive or exciting.
Beauty is in the eye of the beholder obviously, but my god I’d rather watch baseball than all that incessant passing.
They did? And I don't remember 2022 being a shit WC.
It's a game of model professionals and athletes, you don’t get the personalities or the flawed geniuses that you had in previous years. There’s less chance involved, less risk-taking, less individuality. The focus is rather on statistics, probabilities, and outputs.
It’s ultimately this way because of the advances in sport science, the amount of money in the game, and rule changes.
Nobody revolutionised the game, it’s naturally progressed into this. Doesn’t make for great entertainment
It’s ultimately this way because of the advances in sport science, the amount of money in the game, and rule changes.
Nobody revolutionised the game, it’s naturally progressed into this. Doesn’t make for great entertainment
The 2008 team wasn't boring imo. It had a good balance between aggressive direct play that took more risks with the through-balls, and slower possession.
Spain's 2008 team under Aragones was a joy to watch. Their 2010 and 2012 teams under Del Bosque were dreadfully boring, aside from the 2012 final against Italy.
It would be the first place I'd complain about football because it's a place to talk about football.
Spot on and we seem to be in the transitioning period towards the next dominant style that's going to take hold.
It does seem to mostly happen through inavators who get to exemplify a particular way of play through their historical sides and the responses that arise to counter it.
50s had the Hungarians, 60s had benfica and herrera, 70s had michels and late 80s and early 90s saw Sachi bring a new positional outlook towards football and more recently we've had guardiola with his Barcelona team and klopp with Liverpool.
As pretentious as it may sound it does seem that the hegelian process does mostly apply, for example thesis being tiki taka , antithesis the high octane pressing approach to dismantle it and the synthesis being pretty much what pep is serving as of now.
Outliers do seem to exist however, we were one of them in a way and in way so we're Chelsea and some Italian teams, although non better represents this archetype than the great Madrid teams of the past decade.
All in all I have no idea when the next new shining approach is going to arrive but we certainly seem to be moving there as the length it takes to transition seems to be around 5 or so years going by the past.
What helped the 2008 team was that David Villa and Fernando Torres were pacey and dynamic up front, by 2010 Torres was heading into his imposter years and then by 2012 he just wasn't very good and David Villa broke his leg for that one, which helped force their hand into that false 9 system when they had the greatest collection of midfielders ever to go with a lacklustre set of forwards.
My bad I had the years mixed up, I agree the team with Torres spearheading the attack was a lot better to watch. It was the 10/12 teams that were like watching paint dry.
Who and when do we play in pre-season? Looking forward to the 3am UK time games in America 
For me, the most unattractive thing in a football match are bad decisions. Dribbling down blind alleys, taking low probability shots, etc. whereas the most beautiful thing are well choreographed passing sequences that make football look easy. I don't mind long shots and crosses when they are done well and not out of a lack of creativity but most teams attempt them because they have no idea how to create chances through passes and movement.
Of course, when such a team meets a very negative one, it becomes highly one sided since they won't try to force it. But it would be even more boring if they would just whip in one cross after the other to no avail or constantly blast long shots that ate blocked by the parked bus. So for me, the bus parking is more to blame. When Pep meets s team with a similar philosophy, you can rxpect an exciting match.
Moreover, football in general is a low scoring game with a very low density of scenes in which one team could score but Pep's is still the brand that has the highest density of chances and goals.
Another aspect is that it has been a long while since we've seen the most exciting players play for the best coaches. Neymar, Messi, Mbappe, etc. all played for rather disjointed teams since at least 2016 or so.
They played exciting football for one game against Switzerland, which they lost. Then they switched to playing safe and won the WC.
austria v turkey is more like what i want from international football. Whether it can beat georgia v turkey as the game of the tournament so far, remains to be seen.
Exactly my point... You are giving an example of a 1.9 meter dude who has tons of stamina.
I actually think a few focus areas for refs would change the game dramatically, for the better.
Firstly, actually penalise tactical fouls with a yelliw card every time. Pep’s teams are set up to always make tactical fouls if they lose the ball. If they don’t, teams will counter them. Even Walker can’t be everywhere. Stay that high and you are bound to be punished, but not when refs perpetually let you carry on with these cynical tactical fouls. So focus one - let teams actually counter attack.
Secondly, start penalising goalies for clinging to the ball for more than the six second rule. It shoukd be the easiest in the world to managw for any ref. Drives me insane watching goalies clutch the ball for thirsty seconds then play it short.
Thirdly, goal kicks - no players should be allowed inside the 18 yard box. The little five a side games inside the 18 yard box is ruining the game. It’s a snooze fest. Get the game playing.
So mostly, if the refs just you know, manage the games then Peo’s tactic faulters to a degree. By adding a few more points, you also get a quicker game.
And one last one - stop giving free kicks for every blatant defensive dive. Every feckin time.
Firstly, actually penalise tactical fouls with a yelliw card every time. Pep’s teams are set up to always make tactical fouls if they lose the ball. If they don’t, teams will counter them. Even Walker can’t be everywhere. Stay that high and you are bound to be punished, but not when refs perpetually let you carry on with these cynical tactical fouls. So focus one - let teams actually counter attack.
Secondly, start penalising goalies for clinging to the ball for more than the six second rule. It shoukd be the easiest in the world to managw for any ref. Drives me insane watching goalies clutch the ball for thirsty seconds then play it short.
Thirdly, goal kicks - no players should be allowed inside the 18 yard box. The little five a side games inside the 18 yard box is ruining the game. It’s a snooze fest. Get the game playing.
So mostly, if the refs just you know, manage the games then Peo’s tactic faulters to a degree. By adding a few more points, you also get a quicker game.
And one last one - stop giving free kicks for every blatant defensive dive. Every feckin time.
But equally there are old players that wouldn't make it now due to a lack of ability and technique.
They were amazing to watch.
I have no idea how you could legislate for what is and isn't tactical/rotational fouling, but if it could somehow be stopped it would really choke the method of defense most top teams rely on and improve the game. I just don't think you could do it without a massive drama week after week about what was and wasn't a tactical foul.
You just love to complain people, don’t you. We are coming off an era marked by two of the most talented footballers ever and entering a new, exciting one, where you have no idea who will win the next Ballon d’Or but there’s at least 3-5 big candidates. I don’t think we’re lacking any superstars
For one, tugging a shirt is a tactical foul. Running into someone without actually competing for the ball is a tactical foul.
Problem is, refs only give yellows in the secons half for those. Give them in the first minute and it gives the players something to think about.
Has it become boring or has my attention span just gone to shit cause I have so many other distractions at my fingertips compared to before? I don’t know which.
I was watching him when he came on the other night and the size difference between him and Bellingham was massive. I didn’t notice what an absolute unit Bellingham was until he was next to Palmer.
I just think football has been over exposed for quite some time. We’re saturated with it to the point we don’t even notice it anymore. As a character on tv once said ‘when there’s always biscuits in the barrel… where’s the fun in biscuits?’
Depends. If they could run for 90mins 3 times in a week and be physical they might have a chance.
I have tried to put a fantasy football team together for the Euros, It really brought home how poor the attacking talent is today. Where are all the individuals, players who light up the game? If Mbappe is so called best player in the world, I think that proves Scottynaldo's point, a superb athlete but dull as dishwater. Sad to think players like Cantona, Bergkamp, Ronaldinho, Rivaldo etc would not make it today because they cannot sprint enough when out of possession.
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When I started watching football Italy could pick a front 2 from Baggio, Mancini, Vialli, Zola, Schillachi, Signori, Casiraghi, Ravanelli, Di Canio. The other night they were playing Scamaca and El Sharaway!