He is more Messi than KDB (keeping distances before anyone assaults me), I'm meaning in his style, in this thing of being capable of being a wild card roaming, dribbling, passing, while having a knack for goals.
Florian Wirtz | Leverkusen player
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He is more Messi than KDB (keeping distances before anyone assaults me), I'm meaning in his style, in this thing of being capable of being a wild card roaming, dribbling, passing, while having a knack for goals.
He is playing very high up the pitch, yes. Thanks to his insane recovery speed, he's very important defensively as well but at least this season, he's hardly playing as an RB or even RWB but almost as a RW. In principle, he's fully able to play as a RB in a four at the back system, IMO, since he's defensively much better than given credit for. But his standout qualities are his offensive skills.
His explosiveness from a standstil situation is mindblowing and very hard to defend. He has a good ball control and is a great carrier of the ball but his decision making, finishing and rarely also his passing technique can be a bit erratic. His positioning and game reading ability is excellent, mind. He makes great runs with brillant timing so that he gets in lots and lots of dangerous situations. IMO, he shares a lot of similarities with Sterling. He's obviously a little bit more defensively oriented but they still have a lot in common. Especially with the Sterling that played on the right for Guardiola a few years back.
We‘re a mess right now, however. So there’s a chance he won’t want to join us unless we sort our shit out.
I avoided that comparison because I didn't want to suggest Wirtz is as good as Messi (as brillant as he is, he's not) but I also think they share many important similarities. Especially with the latter (25+) version of Messi. Wirtz is not as explosive as young Messi was but I think what they have in common is that both possess an incredible football IQ. Wirtz scans the field almost as often as Messi and he has an incredbile awareness where space will open up. And that reflects in their dribbling style as well. Somebody like Musiala may have even more jawdropping movements than Wirtz similarly to how young Neymar was more explosive than 30 year old Messi but not necessarily more effective. Wirtz is also somebody who finishes very intelligently and composed as well. They also have a comparable habit of hitting the woodwork. Wirtz is currently leading the Bundesliga with 5 hits right now, Messi lead that statistic for the most part in his career as well if I'm not mistaken.
Coaches in Germany call that "pre-orientation". As it seems, they hammer that into you in Cologne's academy (kudos to them) and Wirtz strikes me as the player who is using it most effectively since Messi.
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I agree with the Messi comparison in terms of style not ability.
It'd never happen but he'd be my dream signing this year.
It'd never happen but he'd be my dream signing this year.
If reports are true that he stays another season at Leverkusen then we have a season to get our club in order and qualify for the champions league. Should be our top priority next season to replace Bruno.
He's a fabulous player but I'd so much rather we transitioned to 4-3-3 instead of persisting with a 10 and two holding players that get overran all the fecking time.
Unfortunately, I can only see Wirtz going to either Real (together with Alonso) or City (to be KDB's heir) next summer.
We're overbooked in attack as it is. Don't see it. We're already planning to move Guler deeper and be Modric's long term replacement, though Ancelotti so far has only played him up top. Don't see us trying the same with Wirtz, especially when he's already so great an attacker
I think you still think in terms of Ancelotti formations. According to German sources as well as some Spanish ones, the plan is that Bellingham replaces Kroos. Alonso usually plays with two attacking midfielders, usually in 3-2-4-1 variations. Bellingham, Güler and Diaz aren't enough for two positions, neither in terms of depth nor in terms of quality - and I'm not even sure Bellingham qualifies as an attacking midfielder since he's playing much deeper than our AMs.
So you'd have Bellingham, Valverde, Camavinga and Tchouameni as CMs. Four players for two positions is fine. But only Diaz and Güler as AMs. Maybe you can play Rodrygo there but even then you'd at least need one more.
This isn't happening. Bellingham is winning games for us in attack, we're not dropping him deeper. This is his best role
Hopefully he has more balls and doesn't just pick the easy options.
You either have to drop him deeper or advance him further if you sign Alonso since Jude's current position doesn't exist in Xabi's system. Our attacking midfielders barely touch the ball in our own half and primarily get involved in the final third and that's not how Bellingham plays. But you'd love him in the Palacios role. He could still decide games from there, keep up his all action in every corner of the pitch playstyle and overall play in similar areas, just with more team mates in front of him. It's not as if this position would limit him, he is tailormade for it.
Its not a foregone conclusion that Xabi plays the exact same system at another club.
Honestly, I think it is. We're playing the same system he played at Sociedad.
Look at the goals Andrich has scored this season for Leverkusen (most were absolute beauties) and imagine Bellingham scoring those goals. You would be fine if he played that role (@Zehner mentioned Palacios, he and Andrich share that spot in the team, I just think Andrich scored the better goals)
No, that's stupid. Xabi will adapt, he's smart enough, and Bellingham can play an even more attacking role just fine. He's a game winning player as an attacker. It would be sheer rank madness to move him deeper
So is Wirtz. Assuming you sign him, one of them has to drop deeper and that would naturally suit Bellingham much better.
All of leverkusen's midfielders combined scored less than Bellingham
Which is why we won't sign Wirtz. We don't need him, because we have Bellingham(and Guler, technically)
Obviously, because you played Bellingham as your main scorer in the center while Leverkusen shared that spot between Boniface, Schick and Adli. My point wasn't about the amount of goals, but about them being very nice goals (and several of them were very important as well).
Endrick
Mbappe
Wirtz?
if you lot pull that one, it's just too much with what you already have in terms of talent and youth.
PD: Also among youngsters there is Güler (that is looking great so far), he is more of a forward than Wortz, but he looks really really good, still to young and unproven.
At some point would be at least cool to try Nico Paz and other ones from Castilla.
Fiorentino made a great renovation throught these last years will still winning. Real it's in a fecking great spot right now
I sense one of those RM exoduses (exodii) coming. Too much talent stockpiled and a good opportunity for someone to take advantage. Arsenal historically have with Ozil and Odegaard (and Sanchez when Barca were actually good). I don't think you can resist the temptation to buy a guy like Wirtz.
FWD: Mbappe, Vini, Rodrygo, Endrick with guys like Joselu and Diaz thrown in.
MID: Bellingham, Camavinga, Valverde, Tchouameni, Guler as mids
Do you think Rodrygo will get punted as a result?
Yes Wirtz in his style, I mean more related to where he roams, how he plays the game his polivalente traits, does a Messi job.
I dunno about hitting the woodwork, but Messi might have to the very least 40 goals more if not more. Wirtz like Messi does not get anxious to finish (or to find a pass), neither outside the box or in the little area.
PD: To be sincere, I don't find Musiala jawdropping in his "movements", I find him odd, his balance, his moves, yet he get the job done and is a great fecking player. Coaches must not mess much with him, he is old guard, he won't always do the more prudent thing, but like Di Maria, when he is on, he is relentless and daring. Football needs this kind of old guard dribblers.
He recently said he'd rather be a backup in Madrid than a starter elsewhere. So, no.
Wirtz can definitely play in a 4—3—3 under the right coach, to be fair. Football “formations” are not always rigidly designed or strictly adhered to, and the No. 10 does not have to be a centrally-oriented, pigeon-holed playmaker.
You could have something like this to begin with in a 4—3—3 shape (with him through the left half-space)...
Winger— —Striker— —Winger
Wirtz—Box-to-box
No. 6
Fullback—Centerback—Centerback—Fullback
Goalkeeper
Wirtz—Box-to-box
No. 6
Fullback—Centerback—Centerback—Fullback
Goalkeeper
In the build-up phases you could transition to a 3—2—2—1 with one of the fullbacks tucking in...
Winger— —Striker— —Winger
Wirtz—Box-to-box
No. 6—Fullback
Fullback—Centerback—Centerback
Goalkeeper
Wirtz—Box-to-box
No. 6—Fullback
Fullback—Centerback—Centerback
Goalkeeper
In the defensive phases you could transition to a 4—4—2 with him operating as a second striker of sorts...
Wirtz—Striker
Winger—No. 6—Box-to-box—Winger
Fullback—Centerback—Centerback—Fullback
Goalkeeper
Wirtz is one of the few players who can fulfil all of those functions at a high level. And under the right coach, he could also play as a left-sided playmaking forward or as a False 9.Winger—No. 6—Box-to-box—Winger
Fullback—Centerback—Centerback—Fullback
Goalkeeper
P.S. Funnily enough (unfunnily enough?), ten Hag's last Ajax team, for example, could seamlessly transition from a 4—3—3 base to a 4—2—3—1 or a 3—2—2—1 or a 4—4—2 (with Mazraoui or Timber stepping into midfield on a fairly regular basis), depending on the stage and phase of the match. They seemed better trained at positional play and more adept at executing those type of in-game rotations than his United teams.
I read the Cleveland Cavaliers coach describe one of his players, Caris Levert, as having an "off-beat wiggle" and it was meant as a compliment. Sort of reminded me of Musiala.
Letting Wirtz go somewhere else because you have Bellingham would be madness. Judging by his heat map and the stats, he's not even playing as an attacking midfielder right now but rather like a CM with license to attack the penalty area. Exactly the Palacios role.
And no, Xabi won't adapt his system and the club won't ask them to. This is Xabi Alonso and Real Madrid we're talking about, not Erik ten Hag and Manchester United
No, he isn't. He's playing as part of a front 3. The positions he takes up are only relevant insofar as how the team plays. He has only 2 guys ahead of him and is largely freed from defensive duties, while being tasked with almost target man duties in build up. He's not a CM with license to attack. He's an attacker with license to drop deeper
It's Real Madrid, he either adapts or he sinksAnd no, Xabi won't adapt his system and the club won't ask them to. This is Xabi Alonso and Real Madrid we're talking about, not Erik ten Hag and Manchester United
As long as he's successful, nobody will bat an eye, at Madrid even less so than anywhere else
That's interesting, thanks.
So unless he plays as RW or almost exclusively in a dynamic attacking RWB position, how do you think he'll fair in a more conservative RB/RWB position? Or rather in a team where he will have his chance to attack but will also have to contribute in possession (more mundane stuff like retention, giving good angles etc) and off the ball a lot i.e defensively. I guess what I'm trying to say is that he seems like a big attacking influence for you guys and I worry if he would be as directly involved playing for another team. Therefore, how would he perform in more orthodox moments where the 'influence' is more spread out?
Feck it, would he also suck at Utd like most of our players?
Yeap
That's interesting, thanks.
So unless he plays as RW or almost exclusively in a dynamic attacking RWB position, how do you think he'll fair in a more conservative RB/RWB position? Or rather in a team where he will have his chance to attack but will also have to contribute in possession (more mundane stuff like retention, giving good angles etc) and off the ball a lot i.e defensively. I guess what I'm trying to say is that he seems like a big attacking influence for you guys and I worry if he would be as directly involved playing for another team. Therefore, how would he perform in more orthodox moments where the 'influence' is more spread out?
Feck it, would he also suck at Utd like most of our players?
Frimpong actually had his breakthrough season for us in a completely different system under Gerardo Seoane. It was very counter attack oriented without much ball control. Frimpong worked in that environment as well but obviously not as good as currently. If you play him in a four at the back system, I guess it will help to have a more defensively oriented left back. In terms of ball retention and stuff like this he's decent but nothing special. He is good at progressing the ball through carries and one twos, he doesn't lose it a lot in the build up and knows when to recycle it though much of that is also down to coaching I guess. After all we are a very patient team in possession right now.
From what I've seen, I'd say United's attacking players often find themselves isolated which is why somebody like Sancho didn't really work out as well as expected. Frimpong should work better in such situations since his dribbling relies on explosiveness and agility. But I wouldn't expect the same productivity at United, IMO, because we produce lots and lots of these situations for him and in every other game he wastes one after the other (guess that's another trait he shares with Sterling). In general, I think that applies to many of our players. All of them improved massively under Alonso and I can't think of many somewhat realistic upgrades on them but there are no guarantees that they retain this level after a move to a team that doesn't click as well yet. After all, most of your Bundesliga flops were very good players in the teams you signed them from.
Nice one. More or less what I had assumed having only seen very little of him. Look forward to actually catching some games of Frimpong and your team next season. Will definitely be very interesting to watch.
And you're spot on about Utd. Same old, same old really.
This is the first time I've seen him play. Is he always this weak and easy to shrug off the ball? The last thing we need is another DVB who can't hack the physicality of the PL.
As if he'd be scrambling to join us anyhow.
He's still hurt, carrying an injury
We've signed plenty of players with a better reputation than him over the last decade, so let's not pretend that we can't attract the big names.
Makes sense. Thanks.
This would be quite a poor performance from a bloke with one leg.
We're not in a good position right now at all and he's pretty young so I'm sure he wouldn't risk coming here, the other big names we signed were mostly towards the end of their careers.