He’s also sadly the profile of player (£100m transfer) we will be staying away from for the near future. Have to sort out the manager, style, broader squad until we start paying insane money for the best players else we just continue what we’ve done before.
Florian Wirtz | Leverkusen player
- Thread starter Invictus
- Start date
He does stay this summer, so a potential transfer would happen next summer at earliest. That could be enough time for United to clean up the chaos and become a good destination. So it's not all sad in that regard, you could have a chance.
Are you still up or already up?
Are you still up or already up?
Already
I would pay to see how Andrich and co are doing today'All or nothing' crews are never where you need themAlready
Actually, he stated quite often, that he is a Fan of Bayern München.
His father is also in talks with Bayern, since his times in Cologne.
That being said, it doesn't mean, he will end up there.
His father is also in talks with Bayern, since his times in Cologne.
That being said, it doesn't mean, he will end up there.
Pft. Only for you plebs. We do it and proceed to have the most magical, epic champions league run in history
I expect both Alonso and Wirtz to leave for Real next summer. No idea how Real will try to work out their squad should they get Mbappe and then Wirtz, but I think Bayern will be happy to help themselves to Real's leftovers again (Robben).
Don't see Wirtz going to Madrid, would be incredibly stupid with Bellingham there and playing his role as the CAM. City is pretty much the perfect situation with De Bruyne getting older, Wirtz is almost a carbon copy of him.
Would obviously love him at United to replace Bruno, we have face reality that we are well below the list for the best youngsters in the world
Would obviously love him at United to replace Bruno, we have face reality that we are well below the list for the best youngsters in the world
Don't see Wirtz going to Madrid, would be incredibly stupid with Bellingham there and playing his role as the CAM. City is pretty much the perfect situation with De Bruyne getting older, Wirtz is almost a carbon copy of him.
Would obviously love him at United to replace Bruno, we have face reality that we are well below the list for the best youngsters in the world
I think Bellingham and Wirtz can play in the same line up, especially under Alonso who often starts with two AMs anyway. Bellingham would also be great in the Palacios role who is a bit more free roaming besides Tchouameni. Wirtz could also play on the left when Vinicius is rested or injured. I think there are many possibilities. But I still don't see how Vini and Mbappe fit into the same line up. Especially when Davies is on the field, too.
Well, Rodrygo did play as a left winger against City with Vini on the pitch in a free role. I’d imagine that this kind of set up would work for Mbappé as well.
In Alonso's current 3421 formation is no place for neither Mbappe nor Vinicius. So this way of playing together won't happen for sure.
Mbappe and Wirtz signing for Real would mean that other players would have to leave to make space for them.
Don't see Wirtz going to Madrid, would be incredibly stupid with Bellingham there and playing his role as the CAM. City is pretty much the perfect situation with De Bruyne getting older, Wirtz is almost a carbon copy of him.
Would obviously love him at United to replace Bruno, we have face reality that we are well below the list for the best youngsters in the world
agreed. Jude isn’t going to thrive as a box to box in the long term. He’s already in his best role now.
Something like that could be possible but I guess there are enough problems which emerge due to tactical decisions like this as well. I mean, somebody has to occupy certain positions in the build up so one will always have to play on the right in possession. It just seems a bit nonsensical to me to have two €150+M players who both want to play on the left wing in one team.
I think Vinicius would be ideal as a wide player in Alonso's system. A mirrored Frimpong role so to say. Mbappe is a bit more difficult as he's not really an attacking midfielder or a striker but I guess you could make due by playing him as an LAM. In that case you could also fit Vinicius in as a LW but you'd still need a striker and both would probably attack the same spaces.
But aren't they also going to sign Davies? I think he would be more suited to that role than Vini.
Yeah, Davies and Vinicius/Mbappe could be difficult under Alonso, all three very difficult indeed. Alonso could go for something like the Frimpong/Diaby connection last season but even that seemed to be more improvised and not by design.
But in general, Vinicius would be more fitting in the Frimpong role. I know Frimpong is technically a wing back but one of our most successful attacking patterns is overloading the left side of the pitch in the build up where our technically most gifted players are, lure the opponent in and when we beat their press, shift to the other side where Frimpong is free to engage the rest defense. And whil Frimpong is great at that, Vinicius is on a wholly different level to him in that regard. He'd absolutely rip rest defenses apart. Mbappe as well obviously but I'm not sure he'd be okay with not being the player everything goes through.
i mean of course there is. Doesn't mean it would be optimal, but that's still 3 forward roles for 3 forwards(Mbappé, Vini, Jude).
Mbappé ain't coming anyways so no problems there
Whatever let's you sleep at night.
Not under the assumption that Wirtz is coming to Real. Because then the double 10 would most likely be Bellingham/Wirtz and you would need a striker in front of them. Neither Mbappe nor Vini are really suited to that role.
I don't think Bellingham has nearly the technical abilities to play the same role Palacios does for Leverkusen. Palacios is a top class deep playmaker and I don't think Bellingham can be world class in that role, it requires great passing and also ability to dribble out of tight spaces. CAM is Bellingham's best role since it allows him freedom to go forward and use his great attacking instincts.
As for playing both CAMs, that would need switching to 3 at the back but don't know if Madrid would go for it. If they do then certainly can work. Then then how would they fit all their star wingers.
Would have thought Robben was a bit old by now!
I think it is rather a question of decision making than technical ability. Bellingham has generally better technique than Palacios, IMO, and he's also quite capable at freeing himself out of pressing situations. In terms of decision making, he has improved a lot at Madrid and now loses very few balls as evidenced by his pass completion going up from 82% to 88%. And he'd enjoy the positional freedom Palacios has both with and against the ball, often pushing into the attacking line and attempting long shots and through balls respectively aggressively pressing opponents all over the pitch. IMO that's the ideal role for Bellingham, even better than his current one.
Regarding the three at the back issue: I think if they sign Alonso, it goes without saying that they switch to three at the back. At the very least in the build up phase. Alonso has proven to be relatively versatile in his tactics but the 3-2 base formation in the build up has been non-negotionable so far.
He is going to Bayern as is usually the case for all German talents.
If Wirtz ends up in City115 I'll give up on watching PL matches that are not ours.
How about Bayern?
I don't care about the Bundesliga as much. On top of that, as tiring as Bayern's dominance of German football can be, I don't think it is based on governmental investment fund money or marketing deals completely at odds with real market values.
Then I'll stop watching any Bundesliga matches that are not ours
Luckily I think a Bayern transfer is very unlikely. I'm obviously biased so I'm not sure whether to trust my argumentation but IMO there are many things that speak against a transfer. First, we don't want to sell to Bayern, so Wirtz would have to insist to go there and only there. Second, there is the financial dimension. Hoeneß has said himself that transfers like Kane will remain rare occasions and only happen when the team is in desperate need of a wordclass player in a certain position. That doesn't apply to Wirtz who would be even more expensive than Kane on top of it. Plus, it seems like Bayern is planning a big overhaul of the squad. Many contract situations aren't favorable so they will extend with a few high performers for big money and lose a few other players for low fees whose replacements will be expensive as well. Wirtz on the other hand is known for very careful career planning. His camp will probably be suspicious of all the uncertainties around Bayern right now (squad overhaul, unknown manager, new leadership, not sure which titles they will contend for in the future) plus they already publicly proclaimed that they want to make Musiala the new face of the club - a player who is the same age, nationality and plays the same position as Wirtz. It also seems as if Wirtz at one point wants to play in Spain or England and that won't increase Bayern's willingness to pay either - they love picking up free agents or distributing transfer fees over long contract durations. And what shouldn't be underestimated as well: Wirtz and his father will know how a transfer to Bayern would be received. This would mean it's over with the universal love from German football fans. The transfer would receive much criticism, Götze comparisons would be made, there would be many hate comments and threats over social media, etc. I don't think Bayern as a whole package is attractive enough for them to ignore all the aforementioned. A Musiala exit could change things up as Bayern would suddenly be in need of a new future star in the attack as well as very solvent. But even then: Would Wirtz as at the very least Musiala's equal go to a club that Musiala himself thinks is not the right destination for him moving forward?
So my money is on Real Madrid, Manchester City or Barcelona. Bayern first has to sort their stuff out before they become as attractive as they used to be again. And this will become more difficult compared to 2012/13 again, IMO, since they don't have Ribery and Robben anymore and no Guardiola following on Heynckes to attract players.
I don't know for how long Pep plans to stay at City, but if he stays there is no better player for him. If Pep could bake himself the perfect midfielder it would be Wirtz. And I would hate it...
Not that sure I would like that, Pep tends to be a bit over the top trying to manage players like Wirtz unless is a Messi and even with Messi he got mad lots of times, but is Messi, Pep does not eat glass for lunch either.
Pep tends to have shorcircuits from time to time with Kevin (the one closer to Wirtz, Messi in his squad) and also Foden (who has been "trained " by him since a very early age) goes up and down in his level because he knows that the bench it's always there waiting if not following orders or not delivering with a new role or position.
I would preffer Wirtz in a team with a bit more freedom. I'm not saying it won't work, in fact Xabi has lots of Pep things regarding keeping first team time, changing roles, etc, but I feel Xabi is more vertical and gives more license to his players to risk more the ball than Pep.
Wirtz in Real, Barca, sounds better, I want the lad to free roam and be himself and become an alltimer with all the fame he deserves.
From Bayer, Palacios suits City and Pep like a glove, he'll do as he is asked and it's not as bad for us as football fans if he has him in a leash instead of having such a promising and special player like Wirtz in such scenario.
Moving this here so we don't get too offtopic in the Mbappe thread
Not really. Wirtz is an attacking midfielder through and through. Personally, I think this would make no sense from both a positional perspective as well as a performance oriented one. From what I've seen (and I've seen 50+ full games of both players), Wirtz is clearly better as an AM (the stats back that up as well by the way) while Bellingham has the unique trait of being a presence all over the pitch simultaneously due to his completeness (technique + physicality). Anyway, I think you signing Alonso will shake things up significantly one way or another. Especially his use of the wing back positions makes his formations incredibly flexible. Grimaldo as a LWB almost plays like a third CM while Frimpong on the other wing is almost a RW. So you could play Valverde e. g. as a RWB who pushes into a CM role in possession and Vinicius as a "LWB" who actually plays like a LW. But you could also start Valverde in the current Palacios/Andrich role that gives the CM lots of freedom to roam, push into the box and leave the formation to press players based on instinct. I'd say you wouldn't find a better player for this position than Bellingham but if he absolutely has to play attacking mid, then he can do that besides Wirtz with Valverde and Tchouameni behind them.
But if you have the chance to sign Wirtz, you should (and will) be all over him. I mean, he's far and away the best player in a team that achieved the second highest points total in Bundesliga history and was the first to go unbeaten in a whole season. The teams that accomplished similar feats consisted of players such as Robben, Ribery, Lahm, Neuer, etc. I think it still hasn't really sunken in how fecking special he has been under Alonso.
Not really. Wirtz is an attacking midfielder through and through. Personally, I think this would make no sense from both a positional perspective as well as a performance oriented one. From what I've seen (and I've seen 50+ full games of both players), Wirtz is clearly better as an AM (the stats back that up as well by the way) while Bellingham has the unique trait of being a presence all over the pitch simultaneously due to his completeness (technique + physicality). Anyway, I think you signing Alonso will shake things up significantly one way or another. Especially his use of the wing back positions makes his formations incredibly flexible. Grimaldo as a LWB almost plays like a third CM while Frimpong on the other wing is almost a RW. So you could play Valverde e. g. as a RWB who pushes into a CM role in possession and Vinicius as a "LWB" who actually plays like a LW. But you could also start Valverde in the current Palacios/Andrich role that gives the CM lots of freedom to roam, push into the box and leave the formation to press players based on instinct. I'd say you wouldn't find a better player for this position than Bellingham but if he absolutely has to play attacking mid, then he can do that besides Wirtz with Valverde and Tchouameni behind them.
But if you have the chance to sign Wirtz, you should (and will) be all over him. I mean, he's far and away the best player in a team that achieved the second highest points total in Bundesliga history and was the first to go unbeaten in a whole season. The teams that accomplished similar feats consisted of players such as Robben, Ribery, Lahm, Neuer, etc. I think it still hasn't really sunken in how fecking special he has been under Alonso.
No surprise
Thank you very much for the explanation Zehner. It sounds so good that it's tempting to sack Carletto to try all that you sayMoving this here so we don't get too offtopic in the Mbappe thread
Not really. Wirtz is an attacking midfielder through and through. Personally, I think this would make no sense from both a positional perspective as well as a performance oriented one. From what I've seen (and I've seen 50+ full games of both players), Wirtz is clearly better as an AM (the stats back that up as well by the way) while Bellingham has the unique trait of being a presence all over the pitch simultaneously due to his completeness (technique + physicality). Anyway, I think you signing Alonso will shake things up significantly one way or another. Especially his use of the wing back positions makes his formations incredibly flexible. Grimaldo as a LWB almost plays like a third CM while Frimpong on the other wing is almost a RW. So you could play Valverde e. g. as a RWB who pushes into a CM role in possession and Vinicius as a "LWB" who actually plays like a LW. But you could also start Valverde in the current Palacios/Andrich role that gives the CM lots of freedom to roam, push into the box and leave the formation to press players based on instinct. I'd say you wouldn't find a better player for this position than Bellingham but if he absolutely has to play attacking mid, then he can do that besides Wirtz with Valverde and Tchouameni behind them.
But if you have the chance to sign Wirtz, you should (and will) be all over him. I mean, he's far and away the best player in a team that achieved the second highest points total in Bundesliga history and was the first to go unbeaten in a whole season. The teams that accomplished similar feats consisted of players such as Robben, Ribery, Lahm, Neuer, etc. I think it still hasn't really sunken in how fecking special he has been under Alonso.
. We'll have to keep looking for the new Kroos.If we sign Mbappé we won't go after this kid. Too similar to Bellingham and Guler, would cost a bomb, pointless in the endThank you very much for the explanation Zehner. It sounds so good that it's tempting to sack Carletto to try all that you say
Ignoring the 115 charges, I can see City trying to get him as their KDB replacement in a couple of years. Doubt he'll be leaving Leverkusen now with UCL football next season.
If you just look at the fundamentals of the situation then Bayern has to be his most likely next club, moving in the summer of 2025 or 2026.
Too early or too late, respectively. Bad timing for them. Their squad needs huge investements and Wirtz isn't playing in a posituon that they need. I guess if they invest enough money into the team to be attractive for him, they don't have enough left to sign him. Add to that we don't want to sell to them, Wirtz wanting to play in Spain or England sooner or later (making it less likely that Bayern breaks the bank for him), their United like chaos right now and a bunch of other things and they become highly unlikely.
You would know better than me, especially about how such a transfer is viewed from the Leverkusen perspective.
If Real Madrid isn't a fit and a high likelihood that the timing will not be good at City in the summer of 2025 either, it will be interesting to see who else emerges as potential suitors.
Summer 2025 could be a big one for top level LW or left attacking midfield players as Khvara likely hits the market then, maybe Leao, maybe Rodrygo (if he doesn't like how his role is developing at Real), and maybe even Musiala (although I expect Bayern to sign him to a new deal).
Moving this here so we don't get too offtopic in the Mbappe thread
Not really. Wirtz is an attacking midfielder through and through. Personally, I think this would make no sense from both a positional perspective as well as a performance oriented one. From what I've seen (and I've seen 50+ full games of both players), Wirtz is clearly better as an AM (the stats back that up as well by the way) while Bellingham has the unique trait of being a presence all over the pitch simultaneously due to his completeness (technique + physicality). Anyway, I think you signing Alonso will shake things up significantly one way or another. Especially his use of the wing back positions makes his formations incredibly flexible. Grimaldo as a LWB almost plays like a third CM while Frimpong on the other wing is almost a RW. So you could play Valverde e. g. as a RWB who pushes into a CM role in possession and Vinicius as a "LWB" who actually plays like a LW. But you could also start Valverde in the current Palacios/Andrich role that gives the CM lots of freedom to roam, push into the box and leave the formation to press players based on instinct. I'd say you wouldn't find a better player for this position than Bellingham but if he absolutely has to play attacking mid, then he can do that besides Wirtz with Valverde and Tchouameni behind them.
But if you have the chance to sign Wirtz, you should (and will) be all over him. I mean, he's far and away the best player in a team that achieved the second highest points total in Bundesliga history and was the first to go unbeaten in a whole season. The teams that accomplished similar feats consisted of players such as Robben, Ribery, Lahm, Neuer, etc. I think it still hasn't really sunken in how fecking special he has been under Alonso.
What do you think of Frimpong as a player? The few highlights I've seen of Leverkusen, he's almost always the further player forward or running in behind in attack. He seems quite good technically and has some elite acceleration and speed. What's his best position? Can he play in back four? Potential as a PL player? Cheers.
KDB's heir.