Considering where we were or dug our self into, 3rd is an achievement, also bit of a relief with the after last few games, where top 4 would should have been ensured comfortably. It's not a pure celebration, mix of lot of emotions.
Absolutely as we cannot take a corner. Do you know that corners are a legitimate way of scoring goals? Otherwise there is no point in a corner? Can anyone tell me why he cannot coach is to take a decent corner? Do you ever watch good teams play football?
Many were saying exactly the same thing when Jose got us to 2nd place finish, with 81 points.
Until we beat that, no cause at all for celebration.
True, but many now are looking at the state of the squad and seeing an improvement in content and resilience (though with more to do). Jose's comment was that it was the best result of his career to achieve 2nd with that squad - I doubt Ole could say the same, since his work in progress project is promising (though promise and achievement are different things).
The irony here is that Mourinho was obviously being a facetious dick and has won multiple major trophies, incuding a couple at United - whereas with Ole, this actually *is* the best result of his career...!
True, but many now are looking at the state of the squad and seeing an improvement in content and resilience (though with more to do). Jose's comment was that it was the best result of his career to achieve 2nd with that squad - I doubt Ole could say the same, since his work in progress project is promising (though promise and achievement are different things).
Team B's manager doesn't have the same level of pressures or expectations as the former. Some do well, some crack under the spotlight. Fact.
Fair enough.
Comparatively speaking, Jose achievement in his second season (81points) was significantly better.
I accept that the squad, or more correctly the first 11 show more promise.
And he has arrested our alarming slide.
But next season has to be a level up on that.
And that target of 81 points has to be a minimum goal.
We have flattered to deceive on far too many occasions.
And as Sheffield United have brilliantly demonstrated, it is not all about spending massive amounts in the transfer market. Nice as that would be.
We have the talent. But we are a long way from being a good and well coached unit.
I'm reading lots of posters essentially celebrating what has been one of the crappest seasons overall in years, and it's hypocritical imo as well as a little pathetic.
This has been a fecking crap season, dippers winning the PL, no trophies yet and with Utd closer in points to relegation zone than to the top of the PL.
I've seen multiple posters claim this is their favourite season post Fergie (!!??). Since Fergie retired we've...
Finished 2nd - 19 points off winning the PL
Won an FA Cup
Won the Europa League
Won the League Cup
How the feck is finishing 3rd, no trophy, 33 points off the top, 32 points off the relegation zone now something to be fecking celebrated?
Ole should no doubt keep the job after securing CL footy, but please, please don't put this manager's plight above that of Utd itself, because it's an easy slide into mediocrity.
There are plus points about this season - few decent signings, one really special signing, more goals - but there's nothing that any fan of Man Utd should be actively celebrating.
It was a crap season, and the attitude should be, 'must do better next time', not 'that'll do', and certainly not, 'yay, what an achievement!'.
I was bored so i made one from understat figures for each team https://understat.com/team/Manchester_United/2019. We're below average but not the worst:The conversion rate for corners is something like 3.5% or about 1 in 29.
Do any big teams put that much emphasis on them?
As far as I recall, United have been brutal at corners forever.
I wasn't able to find anything for this season. Do you know if there's corner conversion rate table available online so we can see how we're doing vs the other teams.
Most likely mid to lower level teams will be top of that list.
Team | Corners | Shots | Goals | Xg | XgPerCorner | ShotsPerCorner | GoalsPerCorner |
Liverpool | 258 | 86 | 11 | 7.83 | 0.030 | 0.333 | 0.043 |
Everton | 203 | 104 | 10 | 12.68 | 0.062 | 0.512 | 0.049 |
West Ham | 190 | 76 | 10 | 8.50 | 0.045 | 0.400 | 0.053 |
Arsenal | 231 | 77 | 9 | 6.94 | 0.030 | 0.333 | 0.039 |
Burnley | 171 | 69 | 8 | 12.15 | 0.071 | 0.404 | 0.047 |
Man City | 298 | 103 | 8 | 9.15 | 0.031 | 0.346 | 0.027 |
Bournemouth | 194 | 79 | 8 | 7.40 | 0.038 | 0.407 | 0.041 |
Aston Villa | 200 | 66 | 8 | 4.92 | 0.025 | 0.330 | 0.040 |
Sheffield United | 212 | 74 | 7 | 10.53 | 0.050 | 0.349 | 0.033 |
Chelsea | 247 | 106 | 7 | 9.70 | 0.039 | 0.429 | 0.028 |
Tottenham | 200 | 58 | 7 | 4.20 | 0.021 | 0.290 | 0.035 |
Brighton | 178 | 77 | 6 | 9.68 | 0.054 | 0.433 | 0.034 |
Wolves | 193 | 65 | 6 | 6.70 | 0.035 | 0.337 | 0.031 |
Man United | 204 | 64 | 6 | 6.54 | 0.032 | 0.314 | 0.029 |
Newcastle | 151 | 65 | 6 | 6.05 | 0.040 | 0.430 | 0.040 |
Southampton | 210 | 90 | 5 | 8.31 | 0.040 | 0.429 | 0.024 |
Leicester | 222 | 73 | 5 | 5.94 | 0.027 | 0.329 | 0.023 |
Norwich | 162 | 69 | 3 | 7.21 | 0.045 | 0.426 | 0.019 |
Crystal Palace | 177 | 66 | 2 | 5.03 | 0.028 | 0.373 | 0.011 |
Watford | 167 | 57 | 1 | 3.35 | 0.020 | 0.341 | 0.006 |
Average | 203.4 | 76.2 | 6.65 | 7.64 | 0.038 | 0.375 | 0.033 |
Our conversion rate must be something like 1/200The conversion rate for corners is something like 3.5% or about 1 in 29.
Do any big teams put that much emphasis on them?
As far as I recall, United have been brutal at corners forever.
I wasn't able to find anything for this season. Do you know if there's corner conversion rate table available online so we can see how we're doing vs the other teams.
Most likely mid to lower level teams will be top of that list.
No, but we generate around the same shots as Liverpool who just earn more corners.Only Spurs and Watford had less shots on goal than us. That is not a good number.
We finished 4 points ahead of them even with a manager far better than ours (apparently).If Jose hadn't spanked Leicester it would have been a very different story..
I was bored so i made one from understat figures for each team https://understat.com/team/Manchester_United/2019. We're below average but not the worst:
Team Corners Shots Goals Xg XgPerCorner ShotsPerCorner GoalsPerCorner Liverpool 258 86 11 7.83 0.030 0.333 0.043Everton 203 104 10 12.68 0.062 0.512 0.049West Ham 190 76 10 8.50 0.045 0.400 0.053Arsenal 231 77 9 6.94 0.030 0.333 0.039Burnley 171 69 8 12.15 0.071 0.404 0.047Man City 298 103 8 9.15 0.031 0.346 0.027Bournemouth 194 79 8 7.40 0.038 0.407 0.041Aston Villa 200 66 8 4.92 0.025 0.330 0.040Sheffield United 212 74 7 10.53 0.050 0.349 0.033Chelsea 247 106 7 9.70 0.039 0.429 0.028Tottenham 200 58 7 4.20 0.021 0.290 0.035Brighton 178 77 6 9.68 0.054 0.433 0.034Wolves 193 65 6 6.70 0.035 0.337 0.031Man United 204 64 6 6.54 0.032 0.314 0.029Newcastle 151 65 6 6.05 0.040 0.430 0.040Southampton 210 90 5 8.31 0.040 0.429 0.024Leicester 222 73 5 5.94 0.027 0.329 0.023Norwich 162 69 3 7.21 0.045 0.426 0.019Crystal Palace 177 66 2 5.03 0.028 0.373 0.011Watford 167 57 1 3.35 0.020 0.341 0.006Average 203.4 76.2 6.65 7.64 0.038 0.375 0.033
Yes it doesn't look a big deal. A full season of Bruno taking them with a better centre back in the air than Lindelof and I'd be surprised if we do any worse. Maguire will score a few at some point. Pogba is pretty good in the air also who missed half the season.Excellent work!
I would have done it myself if I could find a source.
Yeah pretty much as I expected. We're fairly average but not the worst and our conversion rate is about the same as City, Chelsea and Leicester.
The conversion rate on corners is so low anyway it doesn't seem worth a huge amount of effort to increase it from 6 to to the max of 11 over a season.
Our conversion rate must be something like 1/200
I too don't think attacking corners is a big deal but here's an analysis anyway.Excellent work!
I would have done it myself if I could find a source.
Yeah pretty much as I expected. We're fairly average but not the worst and our conversion rate is about the same as City, Chelsea and Leicester.
The conversion rate on corners is so low anyway it doesn't seem worth a huge amount of effort to increase it from 6 to to the max of 11 over a season.
Directly yesNope
We were shocking first half of the season. Almost everyone lost faith after Burnley and it was completely fair to slag off the team when we were in midtable. Some even worried about relegation with our trajectory.
All of that had nothing to do with Poch, it's disingenuous to link the two.
If you think I'm rewriting history just take a look. https://www.redcafe.net/threads/cou...fe-from-relegation-for-2019-20-season.451067/ First 20 pages of actual speculation about finishing in mid-table.Erm no it isn't as there were multiple threads and comments on here whining that Pochettino wasn't our manager. It happened if we won, lost, played badly or well. Don't try to re-write history or think people are too stupid to remember what was going on six months ago, then have the cheek to call other people disingenuous.
The Burnley game was also after Christmas so post most of this nonsense.
Criticism was entirely fair and in some cases still is. Agenda based whining and bitterness however made this place insufferable for most of the season and when it was creeping onto all platforms I doubt was helpful for the team either.
Anyone who was saying they were worried about relegation was either an idiot or lying
I agree celebrating is ridiculous, I'm more relieved than celebrating because at one point we looked like not even getting into the Europa League. Three semi finals lost and 33 points off top place is not good enough and as I write this we have yet to sign 1 player who will strengthen our squad. It's just not good enough. Liverpool have got cover for Robertson, City have two or three in the bag and Chelsea too are already stronger. If nothing changes soon Ole won't make Christmas as this squad is just not good enough.I'm reading lots of posters essentially celebrating what has been one of the crappest seasons overall in years, and it's hypocritical imo as well as a little pathetic.
This has been a fecking crap season, dippers winning the PL, no trophies yet and with Utd closer in points to relegation zone than to the top of the PL.
I've seen multiple posters claim this is their favourite season post Fergie (!!??). Since Fergie retired we've...
Finished 2nd - 19 points off winning the PL
Won an FA Cup
Won the Europa League
Won the League Cup
How the feck is finishing 3rd, no trophy, 33 points off the top, 32 points off the relegation zone now something to be fecking celebrated?
Ole should no doubt keep the job after securing CL footy, but please, please don't put this manager's plight above that of Utd itself, because it's an easy slide into mediocrity.
There are plus points about this season - few decent signings, one really special signing, more goals - but there's nothing that any fan of Man Utd should be actively celebrating.
It was a crap season, and the attitude should be, 'must do better next time', not 'that'll do', and certainly not, 'yay, what an achievement!'.
If you think I'm rewriting history just take a look. https://www.redcafe.net/threads/cou...fe-from-relegation-for-2019-20-season.451067/ First 20 pages of actual speculation about finishing in mid-table.
You said people slagged us off because they wanted Poch. Perhaps that was true in some instances, but most people were genuinely worried about how the situation was going.
I don't care much for either whining or relentless positivity, they're both the same to me. But I will say that in that period, the whining was completely warranted. We were shocking, and it took an expensive winter signing, a huge push, and capitulation from our competitors to catch up in the end.
I agree with a lot of your points, however I do think Ole isn't independent of the squad planning going into the season.You could equally speculate where the club would have finished had they signed Bruno (and Igalho) in the summer rather than mid-season.
United's squad going into the season was criminally short of numbers, especially in attack. Their only chance of being competitive was to be really fortunate with injuries. Then Martial and Pogba both got injured in the first few games and the attack was reliant on James, Pereira and Lingard.
Anyone who thinks you can lose your record attacking signing, highest paid attacking player and a key midfield player, replace them with a kid from the Championship and still be an attacking force was living in cuckoo land. It was unfair to judge Ole on the offensive output of this team in the first half of the season as he simply didn't have the quality.
United are still 2 forwards (1 plus a permanent Igalho replacement) short of the attacking numbers they had when Ole took over. The form since Bruno arrived was fantastic. Add 2 quality forwards this summer and let's see what the team looks like then.
I agree with a lot of your points, however I do think Ole isn't independent of the squad planning going into the season.
In any case, I wasn't necessarily disputing that. I just think the notion of the fans whining because of no Pochetinno is incorrect because we were having a very poor campaign well into the season. A lot of the complaints had little to do with Poch, and more to do with our poor performances.
Can't disagree with much of that except to add that the context stretched even beyond this past season. Last season we had an equally abysmal run which had already coloured the views of a lot of people, so the reaction was understandable when we continued that poor streak into the next season.He clearly wasn't independent of the squad planning but was independent of the execution of that plan. The January signings were the ones they failed to complete in the summer and the team has looked very competitive since.
Yes, the criticism was due to performance but when the club announces a major rebuild is required, clears the squad of senior players and then signs 2 first teamers and an inexperienced kid, you've got to view the performances in context.
If we had been criminally short in numbers in attack as you said, Ole should have signed Bruno in the summer instead of investing 130m on defenders and relying on Lingard or a Championship player up front. Every team has a budget and you can't expect to bring in all the players you want in a window, as a manager you need to prioritize certain targets over others according to urgency, and Ole is not completely independent in execution of the plan.He clearly wasn't independent of the squad planning but was independent of the execution of that plan. The January signings were the ones they failed to complete in the summer and the team has looked very competitive since.
Yes, the criticism was due to performance but when the club announces a major rebuild is required, clears the squad of senior players and then signs 2 first teamers and an inexperienced kid, you've got to view the performances in context.
Think a lot of that was to do with not having Pogba but also learning how to manage at this level on the job. This season we will all be hoping he did actually learn something. If he doesn't get backed like he as asked then it might not be a bad start this season, but the squad depth could very easily lead to a big slump during the season. At this point it is over to Ed and Co. to produce. The one's wanting Poch, a few injuries and he may as well be managing Southampton again.If we had been criminally short in numbers in attack as you said, Ole should have signed Bruno in the summer instead of investing 130m on defenders and relying on Lingard or a Championship player up front. Every team has a budget and you can't expect to bring in all the players you want in a window, as a manager you need to prioritize certain targets over others according to urgency, and Ole is not completely independent in execution of the plan.
Maguire replacing Smalling versus Bruno replacing Lingard/Pereira, I guess most of the sensible fans knew which signing would bring a greater impact to the team even before the season started. Ole was privileged to spend an extra 55-60m in the winter to rescue the situation, no every team had the luxury to do that. Fair play to him for turning the season around eventually, but he is also, to a certain extent, responsible for putting us in that position at the first place.
Think a lot of that was to do with not having Pogba but also learning how to manage at this level on the job. This season we will all be hoping he did actually learn something. If he doesn't get backed like he as asked then it might not be a bad start this season, but the squad depth could very easily lead to a big slump during the season. At this point it is over to Ed and Co. to produce. The one's wanting Poch, a few injuries and he may as well be managing Southampton again.
Can't disagree with much of that except to add that the context stretched even beyond this past season. Last season we had an equally abysmal run which had already coloured the views of a lot of people, so the reaction was understandable when we continued that poor streak into the next season.
That's what makes it hard to evaluate Ole as a Utd manager, because there's one and a half season's worth of context with wild swings in performance in between. Different people will say a certain periods matter more than others, which contributes a lot to the seemingly polarized opinions of him.
If we had been criminally short in numbers in attack as you said, Ole should have signed Bruno in the summer instead of investing 130m on defenders and relying on Lingard or a Championship player up front. Every team has a budget and you can't expect to bring in all the players you want in a window, as a manager you need to prioritize certain targets over others according to urgency, and Ole is not completely independent in execution of the plan.
Maguire replacing Smalling versus Bruno replacing Lingard/Pereira, I guess most of the sensible fans knew which signing would bring a greater impact to the team even before the season started. Ole was privileged to spend an extra 55-60m in the winter to rescue the situation, no every team had the luxury to do that. Fair play to him for turning the season around eventually, but he is also, to a certain extent, responsible for putting us in that position at the first place.
I'm sure if he knew Pogba would miss half the season he would've pushed to get Fernandes.If we had been criminally short in numbers in attack as you said, Ole should have signed Bruno in the summer instead of investing 130m on defenders and relying on Lingard or a Championship player up front. Every team has a budget and you can't expect to bring in all the players you want in a window, as a manager you need to prioritize certain targets over others according to urgency, and Ole is not completely independent in execution of the plan.
Maguire replacing Smalling versus Bruno replacing Lingard/Pereira, I guess most of the sensible fans knew which signing would bring a greater impact to the team even before the season started. Ole was privileged to spend an extra 55-60m in the winter to rescue the situation, no every team had the luxury to do that. Fair play to him for turning the season around eventually, but he is also, to a certain extent, responsible for putting us in that position at the first place.
Excellent work!
I would have done it myself if I could find a source.
Yeah pretty much as I expected. We're fairly average but not the worst and our conversion rate is about the same as City, Chelsea and Leicester.
The conversion rate on corners is so low anyway it doesn't seem worth a huge amount of effort to increase it from 6 to to the max of 11 over a season.
It's not just corners though, it's set pieces in general that could be a lot better. They're a fairly easy way to add some goals, especially in close games. Look at the top 2 by the way, I think it's definitely something they work on.