Yeah comparing points totals across seasons is stupid.
By this logic we had a better season in 1997/98 by finishing 2nd on 77 points than we did actually winning the league in 96/97 on only 75 points.
Its daft.
Finishing 3rd, 33 points off PL winners, and no Trophy (yet) is utter rubbish and shouldn't be celebrated...
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Yeah comparing points totals across seasons is stupid.
By this logic we had a better season in 1997/98 by finishing 2nd on 77 points than we did actually winning the league in 96/97 on only 75 points.
Its daft.
Jose’s Utd finished 2nd with more points than our treble winning season. Points comparison is a nonsense.
What?
Have you considered that some other top 6 teams performed worse compared to the previous season because the rest of the league got stronger? In which case for United to finish on the same points means they actually improved.
Both arguments are largely nonsense, comparing points totals across seasons in stupid and silly. You can't ignore the context of the seasons the points were accumulated in. You don't need to look at points totals to see the team has improved this season from last. For someone not to see that the team has improved they must have their head so far up their own hole that they'd have to part their cheeks to pick their nose.
Yes that's why I gave a scenario, imagine us winning the league with 80 points, will people say we have made no progress. Each season is different. Liverpool in 16-17- had more points than in 17-18 when they reached CL finals, doesn't mean they didn't progress.
Yeah but a lot of the fanbase couldnt stand Jose and wanted him out whether he won anything or not. If Ole had finished 2nd with 77 points I think the mood would be much better. Context matters on this too.
The only thing we should be celebrating is that the football was more attacking and Bruno signing.
If we get the right players like Klopp did, we could go far in CL, but for now we don't even know if we'll get any right player whatsoever.
Every season is unique. Sometimes a team will run away with a procession like Liverpool this season, whilst other times it's a knife fight like last season, where City pipped Liverpool at the end.
The stats make sense only in the context of the season and the only stat that matters is league position - but that alone is not enough to judge a season - we started off as a rabble and ended as a team.
There is some way to go, to be a serious challenger, but last season was a step forward.
I think finishing 3rd from the position we were in is a very good achievement, particularly trying to move on players we do not want and playing the youngest team in the league. Where we go from here though is up for opinion and debate. There are lots of decisions going on behind the scenes, for the most part those that have been made public in terms of signings and selling players it has been very positive, but there is so much more required than that, coaching, discipline, philosophy etc. That is the positive imo. The concerns I took from the season were, AWB and his lack of comfort in attacking positions and his go to move of slide tackling, slide tackling for a top defender should be a last resort, we invested in him as our future rb so he needs to improve particularly attacking and not going to ground so much. The front 3 of Rashford, Greenwood and Martial don't possess a mixture of intelligence or decision making to be fluid or effectively potent enough to overcome the challenge in front of us, city and lpool. I think the attack would be more effective with a focal point for a mixture of those players to play off, Ighalo while not amazing is competent and I was disappointed he was not used more given the lengths we went to to keep him here.
The simple reply to this is: look how far we had fallen. Yes, that far, post SAF. It has been a good season, considering we are still rebuilding; not fantastic or amazing - good. We have a real sense that something good is brewing. I’ll leave it there.
Good post. This genuinely feels like a transition, rather than what we had under Jose and LVG.
I can’t fathom why people can’t see that we have made good progress.
Because this progress is not guaranteed to continue. Just like it wasn't guaranteed that Utd was going to perform even better in 2018/19 than 2017/18 (#2 in the table).
At the end of the day, it's a season with 0 trophies. Arsenal's #2 position in 2015/16 would have felt to them like "progress". Look how that turned out, haven't gotten a sniff at the title ever since.
Every season is like a reset, everybody starts at 0 again. Like I said, at the end of the day it's been a trophyless season.
Mind, I know it's slightly more nuanced and Bruno's signing elevated everyone. And I fully expect next season to be better mainly because there's finally a strong attacking trio that compares well with other front trio's.
You're right.
I'd have taken 3rd, better football and signs we're moving in the right direction at the start of the season so I'm happy, for now. A trophy would have been a nice bonus.
Honestly 3rd was the best we were ever realistically going to get this season so I'm not sure what else anyone would have been expecting. Even next season it willl be very tough to improve on that because Woodward will not bring in the players we need. We know this will never happen while he's the one supposedly trying to do it. If we're lucky he'll manage to sign half of them, and get maybe one of the others a year later....and we DO need players. We still have literally zero adequate cover in most positions on the pitch...and in a few positions the first choice is questionable as it is.
This season we've had to battle with having a weak squad, Woodward not making our most important siging until over half the season was over, long term injuries to key players, and a large proportion of our fanbase putting an extraordinary amount of effort into slagging us off because they wanted Pochettino to be our manager, despite him turning Tottennham into a team so bad that the standard of performances we sacked Mourinho for has actually improved them. It's been a rough ride.
I do think we've been hit and miss to even get 3rd, and helped massively by being awarded a penalty every 20 minutes, but I also think if Woodward had done his job and signed Bruno last summer, we'd have been 3rd very comfortably and probably closer to City as well.
It wont be good enough if we do the same next season and I do worry we'll just sit twiddling our thumbs while the likes of Chelsea make significant improvements, and possibly end up going backwards as a result. Problem is this is regardless of who the manager is. The problem's have stemmed from higher up for so long it's impossible to believe they will just go away when no changes at that level have been made.
Honestly 3rd was the best we were ever realistically going to get this season so I'm not sure what else anyone would have been expecting. Even next season it willl be very tough to improve on that because Woodward will not bring in the players we need. We know this will never happen while he's the one supposedly trying to do it. If we're lucky he'll manage to sign half of them, and get maybe one of the others a year later....and we DO need players. We still have literally zero adequate cover in most positions on the pitch...and in a few positions the first choice is questionable as it is.
This season we've had to battle with having a weak squad, Woodward not making our most important siging until over half the season was over, long term injuries to key players, and a large proportion of our fanbase putting an extraordinary amount of effort into slagging us off because they wanted Pochettino to be our manager, despite him turning Tottennham into a team so bad that the standard of performances we sacked Mourinho for has actually improved them. It's been a rough ride.
I do think we've been hit and miss to even get 3rd, and helped massively by being awarded a penalty every 20 minutes, but I also think if Woodward had done his job and signed Bruno last summer, we'd have been 3rd very comfortably and probably closer to City as well.
It wont be good enough if we do the same next season and I do worry we'll just sit twiddling our thumbs while the likes of Chelsea make significant improvements, and possibly end up going backwards as a result. Problem is this is regardless of who the manager is. The problem's have stemmed from higher up for so long it's impossible to believe they will just go away when no changes at that level have been made.
Yes finishing 2nd, 3rd or 4th should not be celebrated but considering the circumstances it should be celebrated and both young managers(Ole,Lampard) deserve the praise for achieving that. With heavy schedule of Europa league in ole case or negotiate the transfer ban in Lampard case, they finished in top 4 was a good job.
The top 2 teams are playing under some of the greatest managers for 4 or 5 years yet both of those managers' records for their first full seasons were not great in PL. Pep finished fourth despite took over city a great team in his first season and Klopp finished in top 4 in his first full season technically his second season like ole.
Yes top 4 should not be celebrated but both young managers done a good job and putting themselves in good position to strengthen their respective teams to challenge top 2 within one year time.
The top 2 teams are playing under some of the greatest managers for 4 or 5 years yet both of those managers' records for their first full seasons were not great in PL. Pep finished fourth despite took over city a great team in his first season and Klopp finished in top 4 in his first full season technically his second season like ole.
Yes top 4 should not be celebrated but both young managers done a good job and putting themselves in good position to strengthen their respective teams to challenge top 2 within one year time.
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We were shocking first half of the season. Almost everyone lost faith after Burnley and it was completely fair to slag off the team when we were in midtable. Some even worried about relegation with our trajectory.
All of that had nothing to do with Poch, it's disingenuous to link the two.
Every time I open this thread you're in here with your strangely formatted posts talking about corners
Absolutely as we cannot take a corner. Do you know that corners are a legitimate way of scoring goals? Otherwise there is no point in a corner? Can anyone tell me why he cannot coach is to take a decent corner? Do you ever watch good teams play football?
A mid-table team punching above their weight couldn't have possibly beaten all the 19 teams in the league like we did in 17/18. We shouldn't also forget that squad lacked quality. The back 4 was essentially Valencia, Jones, Smalling and Young. Since then, we have spent £130m on the defence and we still conceded more goals than the 17/18 team.
2 years ago, the manager wasn't shitting on everything United. He was speaking the truth that many of us were emotional about. He was only reminding us how far we have fallen from our gold standard in that press conference. He said many of the Sevilla players in 2018 would start in his United team. We cursed him but since then, we made a Leicester defender the most expensive defender in the world and captained him after 6 months. Daniel James arrived from a lower league Swansea and got an automatic start.
Could you think of any Leicester player that would have gotten the captain's armband within few months of joining Man Utd in the Fergie era? That's how far we have fallen. We keep making big excuses for Ole. Firstly, it was let him have his own preseason then it went to let him buy his own players. After £200m spent, we blew it in all cup competitions and finished 33 points below the champions.
If this is progress, I have a hairy dinosaur in Bradford I want to sell to you.
The squad is not good enough. Far away from the standard of a club like ours and Ole clearly doesn’t trust any of them to come on and make a difference.
He needs backed with at least 3 new options in this window. If he isn’t backed, the anger and frustration should only go in one place, and that’s towards the man who has allowed these bench players to accumulate on big wages and stifle the progress of the entire squad.
If they believe he can undo this damage, then they need to put their money where their mouth is and get him quality players. Otherwise it’s another season of disappointment once the injuries start and the games are lost because there just isn’t the quality to make any changes.
He needs backed with at least 3 new options in this window. If he isn’t backed, the anger and frustration should only go in one place, and that’s towards the man who has allowed these bench players to accumulate on big wages and stifle the progress of the entire squad.
If they believe he can undo this damage, then they need to put their money where their mouth is and get him quality players. Otherwise it’s another season of disappointment once the injuries start and the games are lost because there just isn’t the quality to make any changes.
Team A: Finished 3rd in the league for the second consecutive year, with the same amount of points 66 as the previous year (66). Manager's first full season. In the major domestic cup, they went out in the round of 16. In the major European competition, they went out in the semi-finals. The year prior (18/19), they went out of the Europa League in the group stage.
Team B: Finished 3rd in the league with 66 points, after finishing 6th the year before with 66 points. Manager's first full season. In the major domestic cup, they went out in the semi-final round. In a major European competition, they went out in the semi-finals. The year prior (18/19), they went out of CL in the quarterfinals.
Neither team finished with a trophy. Pretty similar trajectories all things considered. Hoping both teams continue to progress and improve.
Team B: Finished 3rd in the league with 66 points, after finishing 6th the year before with 66 points. Manager's first full season. In the major domestic cup, they went out in the semi-final round. In a major European competition, they went out in the semi-finals. The year prior (18/19), they went out of CL in the quarterfinals.
Neither team finished with a trophy. Pretty similar trajectories all things considered. Hoping both teams continue to progress and improve.
I'm happy with the progress but we can do better. Given we have a relatively young squad I will give them the benefit of the doubt but they have improved somewhat this season so next season they cannot drop below this seasons level, under any circumstances, and unfortunately that includes Ole. This year is the prove yourself year. As long as he is backed again in the transfer market. If we go backwards next season and he's been backed I think the writing will be on the wall for him.
I realize it's Nagelsmann and Ole's situations you're describing, but I'm sure you realize the main differences between the scenarios.
Not saying that one scenario is better than the other, but that some key details were left out.
I'm interested in hearing what others deem as the main differences between the two scenarios and what were the key details.
I know what I think they are, in terms of England being a more competitive league, RB Leipzig having a much better football approach and structure than United, RB Leipzig improving their players, team, and manager from previous year, etc.
Team B's manager doesn't have the same level of pressures or expectations as the former. Some do well, some crack under the spotlight. Fact.
The main ones that came to mind were EL vs CL, and quality of player bought.
The level of English football this year is questionable given that Spain, Italy, France, and Germany are all in European finals but no English team. But the football approach of Leipzig is undoubtedly better than Utd's right now.
More than anything, what I would want to see next year from united is consistency in play and that the team look well drilled. Right now they don't. It could be down to coaching or man management, but this team is highly temperamental, which should change next year.
It was a good season. Remember Pogba was absent for most of the games, Rashford and Martial were also injured for about month or two and Fred was our only midfielder available at some point with Matić, McTominay and Pogba injured.
Still, if we dont strenghten this window then I expect stagnation and probably 4th place would be our maximum with Chelsea miles ahead of us and we'd be closer to Spurs and Arsenal.
Have to keep improving our squad. Even if its just Sancho, fine. Board has to back up Ole just like with Maguire and Bruno.
Still, if we dont strenghten this window then I expect stagnation and probably 4th place would be our maximum with Chelsea miles ahead of us and we'd be closer to Spurs and Arsenal.
Have to keep improving our squad. Even if its just Sancho, fine. Board has to back up Ole just like with Maguire and Bruno.
This.
He's been backed with good money. About 200+m so far on his first year. If I'm not mistaken, no other manager in the world spent as much as him in last season.
The problem is, he keeps targeting these expensive players on every window; even on this climate full with uncertainty.
People have short memory. Turning the season around and the recent upward trajectory are definitely positive signs, but there's also a reason why we got ourselves into that position at the first place. Whether Ole is responsible for that is another debate, but it's lazy to ignore the context and leave that part out of the discussion in the evaluation of overall season performance.
Improvement this season would be to look like a well oiled machine and to possibly make an impressive run in the champions league (have to be lucky for this). Possibly winning the FA cup. Other than that I don’t see anything else. We surely aren’t gonna top Liverpool or city next year, so yeah idk. I would love to see the front three (at least martial and greenwood) really break out of that shell and become forces. Martials already pretty close. I’m starting to lose hope with Marcus after his injury. Hopefully he can recover and come back to what he was. The year after that with a whole season of experience of hopefully playing all together again, and Liverpool possibly dropping, I can maybe see a title run happening. We will see.
They literally did. Check out Leicester when they won the league. Also I didn’t say that we were a mid table team punching above our weight. I said the managers tactics made us look like one.
Secondly, that’s being completely disrespectful to the said player when you are completely discounting their ability and basing their credentials only on the team they played for. By that metric i suppose VVD shouldn’t be fit to lace rio’s boots and remind me where Henderson used to play before he became Liverpool’s captain. Even during the fergie era we have bought players from mid table teams for record fee. Rio being a prime example of that.
The manager was absolutely shitting on everything united when he sat there after the Sevilla loss and talked down about the club. Have you forgotten about the “heritage” speech. Have you forgotten about him telling the academy is not good enough as they got relegated. The same academy and squad which has given us maybe the most talented player of his age in Greenwood. He was not telling it as it is. He was protecting his own reputation by shitting on the club’s heritage. And if you can’t see that then you should stick to playing with your hairy dinosaur in bradford.
If this is the standard of your posts, you will never get promoted.
Context matters too on why no one could stand Jose by the end of the 2nd season horrible football and "the Sevilla heritage match". 1st half of that season everyone was happy, 2nd half of that season angered a lot of people.
The club should of course have higher ambitions than third place, but considering where we were at the end of last season, I see third as a great achievement.
Back then, our previous world class GK had just cost us top 4 with a number of mistakes. Our best defender (Smalling) was ill suited to playing the ball out from the back, which is something every top team must be able to do today. The starting full backs from previous seasons were aging, and there were questions about Shaw's injuries. In midfield we had Matic who looked finished, Herrera who had decided to leave, and Pogba who also wanted to leave. Fred and McTominay were described as a massive flop and a Championship standard player. Up top our starting striker wanted to leave, and the more experienced and high earning players (Sanchez and Mata) were not performing. The two players that I think most people were excited about and saw as big parts of our future was Rashford and Martial, but there was still question marks about them being ready to lead the line.
To go from this to where we are today is great progress. A lot of positions looks to be set, and we actually looks capable to challenge for the title with some quality aquisitions.
Back then, our previous world class GK had just cost us top 4 with a number of mistakes. Our best defender (Smalling) was ill suited to playing the ball out from the back, which is something every top team must be able to do today. The starting full backs from previous seasons were aging, and there were questions about Shaw's injuries. In midfield we had Matic who looked finished, Herrera who had decided to leave, and Pogba who also wanted to leave. Fred and McTominay were described as a massive flop and a Championship standard player. Up top our starting striker wanted to leave, and the more experienced and high earning players (Sanchez and Mata) were not performing. The two players that I think most people were excited about and saw as big parts of our future was Rashford and Martial, but there was still question marks about them being ready to lead the line.
To go from this to where we are today is great progress. A lot of positions looks to be set, and we actually looks capable to challenge for the title with some quality aquisitions.
Excellent summary.
You presented good case, mate. On macro scale, Ole's achievement is ok - good this season (6.5/10). Most of his achievement are those micro scales where he's trying to heal the root cause, instead of putting in band aids (rate him 8/10 on this).
Reading your summary, it is easy to forget that you are describing the state of affairs over 12 months ago, nearer 15, in fact.
That is going on for nearly two normal seasons (in terms of elapsed time) and feels like ages ago.
Thank you for putting things into the correct context - good post.
I would consider it a decent season given the circumstances (e.g. rebuilding, getting rid of some deadwood, getting into UCL, emergence of youngsters, etc.). While there's no real reason for celebration (we won feck all), there is certainly several things to be optimistic about going into next season.
Our season is somewhat similar to Chelsea. There has to be some sense of optimism going into the next season, which I'm not sure the same can be said for some of the post-SAF years.
The challenge is now how Ole build on this and add the right pieces + improve the on-field performance/consistency.
As the OP said, I think Ole has earned another season. It will be the defining one though. If he's backed in the transfer market he'll need to prove himself next season.
Our season is somewhat similar to Chelsea. There has to be some sense of optimism going into the next season, which I'm not sure the same can be said for some of the post-SAF years.
The challenge is now how Ole build on this and add the right pieces + improve the on-field performance/consistency.
As the OP said, I think Ole has earned another season. It will be the defining one though. If he's backed in the transfer market he'll need to prove himself next season.
Maguire could have scored about 5-6 more goals from corners this season. He missed a load of really good chances.