Fergie selling macheda?

beardsleybob said:
Might have been Keane
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Cold_Boy said:
Certainly.

Proved by his managerial career.
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Not only that but why would anyone else be in a position to tell the manager that certain players aren't good enough other than the captain? The fact he said that "he wasn't prepared to wait until they were", indicates that he was someone with at least a modicum of authority in the team.
 
Aaron said:
Not only that but why would anyone else be in a position to tell the manager that certain players aren't good enough other than the captain? The fact he said that "he wasn't prepared to wait until they were", indicates that he was someone with at least a modicum of authority in the team.
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Because players have an inflated opinion of their own worth nowadays.It's completely possible that a player other than the captain would feel he has a right to tell the manager who he thinks is good or bad based on that.

It can occasionally work the other way in a positive sense and the manager listens. e.g. Bruce and Pallister raving about Cantona more than likely swayed his mind about a bid. Similarly when we played Sporting Lisbon many senior players spoke of Ronaldo's talent
 
Inigo Montoya said:
Because players have an inflated opinion of their own worth nowadays.It's completely possible that a player other than the captain would feel he has a right to tell the manager who he thinks is good or bad based on that.

It can occasionally work the other way in a positive sense and the manager listens. e.g. Bruce and Pallister raving about Cantona more than likely swayed his mind about a bid. Similarly when we played Sporting Lisbon many senior players spoke of Ronaldo's talent
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True but in all fairness given the circumstance under which Keane left the club and his outspokenness, it is at least probable that he was the man who made the comments. I'm trying to think and I cannot think of anyone in the squad at that time who would have voiced those opinions.
 
Kiko needs a loan to the PL club. End of story.

No way we would sell him now whilst he is so young. Plus, SAF is known to really like him.
 
Raoul said:
Kiko, Diouf, and Welbeck. Two of the three will probably get sold imo.
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Three of the three wouldn't shock me. Although I think with his situation, Welbeck is perhaps likely to be re-loaned next season with a transfer decision being taken in January or even next summer.
 
MPTutd said:
Kiko needs a loan to the PL club. End of story.

No way we would sell him now whilst he is so young. Plus, SAF is known to really like him.
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We sell loads of players whilst they're still young.

Sometimes you have to be fair to the player. If the realistic prospect of him getting into the team is limited and will be over the next two years or so, how long can we justify holding onto him for our own means?

Going on loan to here there any everywhere is preferable to sitting on the bench or playing in the reserves, but isn't ideal for a player's development. Unless a time can come where Ferguson can honestly say that there's a better than good chance he'll displace either Rooney or Hernandez in the team and won't fall behind the likes of Berbatov or any inevitable replacement we'd sign in that respect, then I think it might be better for the players development to let him go.

It happens all the time when big clubs let good youngsters go simply because their prospect of breaking into the first team and becoming a permanent fixture, is slim. It isn't really fair on the player in those circumstances to keep them until we realise what we've known all along (that first team opportunities are extremely seldom) and he's 24, not developed the way he would have done with regular first team football, and we end up selling him to a League 1 side.
 
Why would it be Keane? His career was finishing up, he wasn't waiting for anybody. I don't like Keane the man one bit, but he is one of those youngsters that Fergie gave a chance too. Remember he was only 21-22 when he joined United. Don't mistake his ability to look at potential and his managerial career. At what point has he ever had the option to blood in massive amounts of youth and risk not progressing with his teams? He had his rant but that wasn't directed at Ronaldo and Rooney in particular.

Heinze left because he was losing his position to Evra and knew it was only time before he was a bench warmer. My bet is that it was Ruud. Uniteds talisman for 5 years, he would quite easily have been in the position to question Fergie 'wrongly of course'. First the bust up with Ronaldo and then Fergie drops him for the league cup final...
 
I think he'll be back, Owen will more than likley move on in the summer and he'll probably take up that role. Im sure Diouf will be sold on as ge's clearly not up to United standards, Wellbeck will be intresting to see what happens, great talent but very injury prone.
 
marchi-91 said:
Why would it be Keane? His career was finishing up, he wasn't waiting for anybody. I don't like Keane the man one bit, but he is one of those youngsters that Fergie gave a chance too. Remember he was only 21-22 when he joined United. Don't mistake his ability to look at potential and his managerial career. At what point has he ever had the option to blood in massive amounts of youth and risk not progressing with his teams? He had his rant but that wasn't directed at Ronaldo and Rooney in particular.

Heinze left because he was losing his position to Evra and knew it was only time before he was a bench warmer. My bet is that it was Ruud. Uniteds talisman for 5 years, he would quite easily have been in the position to question Fergie 'wrongly of course'. First the bust up with Ronaldo and then Fergie drops him for the league cup final...
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I think the infamous MUTV rant that never aired where he allegedly slammed many players, is a reason why some think it is likely to have been Keane.
 
Aaron said:
True but in all fairness given the circumstance under which Keane left the club and his outspokenness, it is at least probable that he was the man who made the comments. I'm trying to think and I cannot think of anyone in the squad at that time who would have voiced those opinions.
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We can think a lot about Keane and not all of it is positive but as a football man I can't believe he would be so thick as to blatantly tell the manager that Rooney and Ronaldo would never make it here
 
Aaron said:
True but in all fairness given the circumstance under which Keane left the club and his outspokenness, it is at least probable that he was the man who made the comments. I'm trying to think and I cannot think of anyone in the squad at that time who would have voiced those opinions.
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It's probable but I'd be rooting for Ruud on those specific comments (well documented trouble between the two).

Surprisingly enough Keane actually quite likes Cristiano. But no-one knows so it's all mindless speculation.
 
Red Pavan said:
If we had to choose 1 of those to stay at United, it would have to be Welbeck for me.
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Indeed, though he may have grown to like the first team action he's getting at Sunderland. I haven't seen much of Diouf so I can't say; but Macheda has hardly set Serie A alight. But playing for a bunch of duffers like Sampdoria, it would have been a miracle if he had. Pity he didn't go to Sunderland. Brucie would have taken care of him and brought him along nicely in the Fergie tradition.
 
Aaron said:
I think the infamous MUTV rant that never aired where he allegedly slammed many players, is a reason why some think it is likely to have been Keane.
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But there were a number of younger players namely reserves/youth team players who thought they were the dog's bollocks...Keiran Richardson for one so for me I think it's unlikely it was him talking about R and R
 
Inigo Montoya said:
We can think a lot about Keane and not all of it is positive but as a football man I can't believe he would be so thick as to blatantly tell the manager that Rooney and Ronaldo would never make it here
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But it isn't just that, we know how highly critical he was in that MUTV interview that I mentioned that cause a mini-shit storm at the club.

It would just seem less out of character for Keane to do it than anyone else, I guess.
 
Inigo Montoya said:
But there were a number of younger players namely reserves/youth team players who thought they were the dog's bollocks...Keiran Richardson for one so for me I think it's unlikely it was him talking about R and R
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I know but given that it is reasonable to understand why some think it is likely to have been Keane.

It may have been someone else. It certainly was someone. But we don't have any other examples, from what I can recall, of players being openly critical of team mates during that period.

If you were conducting (for feck-knows what reason) and investigation to who said it, you'd surely have Keane as prime suspect wouldn't you?

Senior position at the club, one of perhaps few people the manager would consult or brave enough to give your opinion to. Known for being critical of players at that time and unhappy with the situation the club was in. History of being outspoken...

There's more to go on there than there is with the 'It might have been Kleberson', or anyone else, isn't there?

Doesn't mean it WAS Keane, but a case can be made.
 
datura said:
Why would we be looking to sell Welbeck?
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Same as Macheda. I've said before that I cannot imagine the manager wanting to have such an inexperienced 'back-up' for our strikers this season. It would go against the grain as to how he's done it before. Our sub strikers are usually very experienced players. McClair, Sheringham, Ole, Saha, Owen, Berbatov etc. All at one time or another were support for our first choice partnership. You need some experience on the bench in that respect. I cannot imagine, regardless of how much potential they have, Fergie being happy going into the a Champions league semi-final knowing that if Rooney got injured 'its okay because we've got Danny Welbeck.'

I could be wrong but I don't recall a time when any of our top three or four strikers at the a club have been so junior in stature as Welbeck and Kiko are.

Not meaning to be disrespectful to the player but at this stage or in the foreseeable future, I cannot imagine the boss going into that scenario with that being an 'ideal' situation.

And if he isn't third but fourth or even fifth choice striker, only called upon in a severe injury crisis, I'd not view that as particularly fair to the player either.
 
Aaron said:
Same as Macheda. I've said before that I cannot imagine the manager wanting to have such an inexperienced 'back-up' for our strikers this season. It would go against the grain as to how he's done it before. Our sub strikers are usually very experienced players. McClair, Sheringham, Ole, Saha, Owen, Berbatov etc. All at one time or another were support for our first choice partnership. You need some experience on the bench in that respect. I cannot imagine, regardless of how much potential they have, Fergie being happy going into the a Champions league semi-final knowing that if Rooney got injured 'its okay because we've got Danny Welbeck.'

I could be wrong but I don't recall a time when any of our top three or four strikers at the a club have been so junior in stature as Welbeck and Kiko are.

Not meaning to be disrespectful to the player but at this stage or in the foreseeable future, I cannot imagine the boss going into that scenario with that being an 'ideal' situation.

And if he isn't third but fourth or even fifth choice striker, only called upon in a severe injury crisis, I'd not view that as particularly fair to the player either.
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Welbeck is hardly that junior, and just come off a real breakthrough season in the top flight and got a full international cap as well as great performances against the top clubs and the ability to play across the front line. I think he's a cert to be involved next season.
 
Maciek said:
It's time for this great quote from Fergie:

"We had a player that once said to me Rooney and Ronaldo weren’t good enough. Can you believe that? He actually said they weren’t good enough and he wasn’t prepared to wait until they were. That’s what happens, that’s the problem with potential – people don’t identify potential, they’re very poor at it. I’ve identified it all my life within young people – I know potential, I know how it can be developed and I know how to have faith in it - young people surprise you when you give them an opportunity. And that’s what this club is about."
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Sounds like what someone would say if they were handing in a transfer request.
 
datura said:
Welbeck is hardly that junior, and just come off a real breakthrough season in the top flight and got a full international cap as well as great performances against the top clubs and the ability to play across the front line. I think he's a cert to be involved next season.
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Agreed with all of that, he's had a very positive season and is a genuine talent. Neither of the two will be sold.
 
Ubik said:
Agreed with all of that, he's had a very positive season and is a genuine talent. Neither of the two will be sold.
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So you think both will follow the almost unique path of being young players who come through the system and establish themselves in the first team?

It's all about opinions I know but I can't help thinking that's very naive.

Neither have sufficient experience. As I said, look at the ensemble of strikers Ferguson has had over the years. Welbeck and Kiko would be be FAR the least experienced that he's ever had in 'first choice back-up positions. Ever. A case might be made for one getting the fourth choice striker role but both of them must surely rank as extremely unlikely, whether or not you rate either player or not.

I'd refer back to the names of the past. Having one decent season on loan in the PL and not having the greatest of times on loan in Italy hardly compares with what experience and quality the manager likes to have on the bench as back-up to his striking positions.

It isn't impossible but surely high improbable that would happen. Even considering how few youngsters that we produce these days, end up anywhere near the first team anyway.

It's like when people mention the kids from the reserve team as if they'll be eight of them walking into the first team. It is almost guaranteed two at MOST will ever make it at the club. Everyone else, highly talented as they may be, won't.

I just think it's ridiculously optimistic that both Welbeck and Macheda will come back and become a fixture at United. I think it's quite optimistic to think one of them will. I don't think someone who's done 'alright' for a year will be good enough for Ferguson to replace someone as experienced as who he usually keeps on the bench as striker back-up.

But we get it every year, we send players on loan, everyone convinces themselves they'll come back and fight for a place in the team and then they're never seen in a Manchester United shirt again.

It's a perpetual misunderstanding, I think, as to how the modern day youth set-up works. It is as much about finding commodities to cash in on as it is finding players to eventually become homegrown stars.
 
Welbeck won't be sold because he's extremely talented and has proven as much in the premiership, Macheda because Fergie likes him and he's still young and able to prove himself if he can get some decent experience in the premiership. Neither will be sold this summer, is what I meant, which is what I thought the topic of conversation was. I haven't just been convinced of Welbeck's quality from his time out on loan, either, it's been obvious for years. Even to someone as naive as me.

They'd both join a squad rotation system and we have Berbatov and Owen as experienced forwards. It's a non issue.
 
I think that with -

-Berbatov being 30 years old
-Owen being 31 years old

Wellbeck and Macheda have a great opportunity to be the third choice Manchester United striker in the long term.

Rooney and Hernandez are obviously the future of our attack, but you never know whether Rooney may end up becoming a midfielder in the future, with his game getting deeper and deeper, yet playing as good as he ever has been.

If I was in either Wellbeck or Macheda's shoes I would be doing my upmost to impress SAF and prove to him that I was good enough to be in the Manchester United squad. The next United striker to leave may well be Michael Owen and we already have two or three strikers waiting to take his place
 
Jonno said:
I think that with -

-Berbatov being 30 years old
-Owen being 31 years old

Wellbeck and Macheda have a great opportunity to be the third choice Manchester United striker in the long term.

Rooney and Hernandez are obviously the future of our attack, but you never know whether Rooney may end up becoming a midfielder in the future, with his game getting deeper and deeper, yet playing as good as he ever has been.

If I was in either Wellbeck or Macheda's shoes I would be doing my upmost to impress SAF and prove to him that I was good enough to be in the Manchester United squad. The next United striker to leave may well be Michael Owen and we already have two or three strikers waiting to take his place
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Realistically though can you imagine Ferguson losing strikers of the experience of Berbatov and Owen, with all their pedigree and big game experience, and replace them with two people who have for all intents and purposes, none?

I can't, I'll be honest. I think there's a reason why he likes proven and established strikers on the bench and I do not see that changing any time soon.
 
Aaron said:
Realistically though can you imagine Ferguson losing strikers of the experience of Berbatov and Owen, with all their pedigree and big game experience, and replace them with two people who have for all intents and purposes, none?

I can't, I'll be honest. I think there's a reason why he likes proven and established strikers on the bench and I do not see that changing any time soon.
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But if it takes 3 or 4 years for Berbatov to leave, then surely by then either Macheda or Wellbeck could have had a couple of full seasons with the first team and stepped it up a gear?

Im just saying that now is a good opportunity to work for a future place in the team, as two strikers are over 30 and two are under 30. Potentially 2 spaces in the team
 
Well yes, possibly.

Anyway, for the sake of the game, how much would he fetch on the market would we think?

£8m?
 
Why would Macheda be worth more than Welbeck, when Welbeck had a very good loan spell and on the other hand Macheda had a disastrous one.

Macheda, probably around 5 million and Welbeck I'd say Sunderland would be willing to pay around 12, but we won't sell him in any case.
 
Donut said:
Why would Macheda be worth more than Welbeck, when Welbeck had a very good loan spell and on the other hand Macheda had a disastrous one.

Macheda, probably around 5 million and Welbeck I'd say Sunderland would be willing to pay around 12, but we won't sell him in any case.
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Absolutely spot on.

Welbeck will certainly start a few games next season more than likely CC games and get sub appearances alongside the more experienced players.

Macheda, more likely a loan spell but to a PL club..Sunderland wouldn't be abad place to learn
 
Aaron, it's very possible neither will make it, but you put such a small timescale on it it's fairly clear you have little understanding of how SAF brings through players he rates. Players don't need to be established by 20 or be discounted.

Re your points about the youth players, people have a right to be excited but most are grounded enough to understand that not all are going to make it, there's nothing wrong with being excited about the talent coming through, not everyone is as pessimistic and downbeat as you.
 
Jonno said:
Macheda - Yeah I'd say £7m-£8m
Wellbeck - £6m-£7m
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Really? Macheda has done feck all at Sampdoria while Welbeck has been one of the Premier League's revelations (between injuries it must be said) this season and earned a full England cap after scoring a load of goals for a 19 year old. He's also showed his versatility being able to play wide, while Kiko is much more static. How exactly is Macheda more valuable? Less goals, less versatility, less playing time = worth more money?
 
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