Books Fantasy Reads

[Waldner]

Finished The Golden Fool

Spoiler

Didn't enjoy this one as much as the previous book - personally not too sold on all of this 'real dragon' guff that's starting taking center-stage in the series. Loved how Fitz seemed to piss off nearly everyone he came across towards the end of the book, and Thick has grown on me as a character.

Not too sure where all this Pale Woman + Piebald connection will come into play in the third book just yet but it's looking interesting - daunted at the size of the thing though! Will take me ages to get through.

I miss Nighteyes.

 

[caid]

Finished The Golden Fool

Spoiler

Didn't enjoy this one as much as the previous book - personally not too sold on all of this 'real dragon' guff that's starting taking center-stage in the series. Loved how Fitz seemed to piss off nearly everyone he came across towards the end of the book, and Thick has grown on me as a character.

Not too sure where all this Pale Woman + Piebald connection will come into play in the third book just yet but it's looking interesting - daunted at the size of the thing though! Will take me ages to get through.

I miss Nighteyes.

Did you read the liveship series before going onto that one?
I didn't enjoy the last 2 as much. They were solid 6 or 7 out of 10 kind of books, which is kind of disappointing after the previous ones.

I kind of read 9 of them one after the other though so maybe i was just burnt out by the time i got there.
I'm weird though and read liveships first

 

[Waldner]

Did you read the liveship series before going onto that one?
I didn't enjoy the last 2 as much. They were solid 6 or 7 out of 10 kind of books, which is kind of disappointing after the previous ones.

I kind of read 9 of them one after the other though so maybe i was just burnt out by the time i got there.
I'm weird though and read liveships first

Nah I gave that series a miss - didn't really want to skip out reading about Fitz and co for that long.

I'll probably give Rain Wild Trilogy a miss too unless reading that is really linked into the final trilogy.

 

[Raptori]

Yeah @caid is right, without reading Liveships you've missed out on a ton of worldbuilding (not to mention an awesome story), so you might've enjoyed that more if you hadn't skipped them. Rain Wilds is actually a quadrilogy @Waldner, don't think you'd lose much by skipping it - though that will probably change with the second and third books of the new trilogy.

 

[sizzling sausages]

Yeah, the Liveships trilogy is definitely worth reading. It took me a little while to get into the first one but once I did I really enjoyed it. The second and third were great too.

 

[Waldner]

Yeah @caid is right, without reading Liveships you've missed out on a ton of worldbuilding (not to mention an awesome story), so you might've enjoyed that more if you hadn't skipped them. Rain Wilds is actually a quadrilogy @Waldner, don't think you'd lose much by skipping it - though that will probably change with the second and third books of the new trilogy.

I should've read it but I gave the story a quick glance-over and it didn't seem that appealling - but then again I'm the same person who didn't read Artemis Fowl for about 2 years when I was a kid because I thought it was about a chicken...

I'll probably give Rain Wilds a miss then too and hopefully I won't miss too much. To be honest I don't even know what I've missed out on by not reading Liveships, just some stuff seems a bit unusual.

 

[Raptori]

I should've read it but I gave the story a quick glance-over and it didn't seem that appealling - but then again I'm the same person who didn't read Artemis Fowl for about 2 years when I was a kid because I thought it was about a chicken...

I'll probably give Rain Wilds a miss then too and hopefully I won't miss too much. To be honest I don't even know what I've missed out on by not reading Liveships, just some stuff seems a bit unusual.

Yeah my first reaction when reading what they were about was that they sounded crap and that I shouldn't have bought them (bought the whole RotE at once). I read them anyway since I'd already spent the money, and all three were 10/10 and I've never enjoyed any other series more than that one. The only time I've ever been that wrong about a book was when I got given one for my birthday and just discarded it because the cover looked shit, then finally read it months later when I had nothing else to do and discovered that actually Harry Potter was worth reading.

 

[caid]

I have no idea how a homicidal, depressed, sentient pirate ship doesn't sound great to you people. YOU'RE ALL WRONG!!!

 

[IrishLegend]

Up to book 5 in the wheel of time. Jordan has a great story, but my fecking GOD, his writing is painful.

 

[Revan]

Up to book 5 in the wheel of time. Jordan has a great story, but my fecking GOD, his writing is painful.

Really? I liked his writing (but anyway I like this style when the entire book is just building for the end).

 

[Raptori]

Up to book 5 in the wheel of time. Jordan has a great story, but my fecking GOD, his writing is painful.

I've just started the sixth, don't really have a big problem with the writing, though it's definitely not the main strength of the books.

 

[Revan]

I've just started the sixth, don't really have a big problem with the writing, though it's definitely not the main strength of the books.

How it looked to you Fires of Heaven? Best book ever? Second best?

 

[Raptori]

How it looked to you Fires of Heaven? Best book ever? Second best?

Definitely the best one of the series so far, gave it 5 stars but I'm not sure whether it deserves a place on my favourites shelf. It's close-ish to that though.

 

[Revan]

Definitely the best one of the series so far, gave it 5 stars but I'm not sure whether it deserves a place on my favourites shelf. It's close-ish to that though.

The only one near it on quality on this series is book 12 (The Gathering Storm).

For me, it is the best fantasy book I've read after ASOIAF 3 (A Storm of Swords).

 

[Raptori]

The only one near it on quality on this series is book 12 (The Gathering Storm).

For me, it is the best fantasy book I've read after ASOIAF 3 (A Storm of Swords).

Shame that he couldn't keep it up for the entire series!

For me, Liveships is way out in front, Ketty Jay in clear second, then a group of other series like Powder Mage, Long Price, Riyria, Stormlight, His Dark Materials, Mistborn, etc. Fires of Heaven probably belongs in that third category.

I think I need to read more...

 

[Revan]

Mistborn in the same category as Fires of Heaven?

 

[Raptori]

Mistborn in the same category as Fires of Heaven?

Yeah, obviously they're not the same level of quality, but that's not the only thing I look for in a book. Riyria and Mistborn are both there because of how much I enjoyed them, rather than because they excel based on objective criteria or anything like that. Fires of Heaven was brilliantly done, but for large portions the characters irritated the shit out of me, so I didn't enjoy it as much as I would have otherwise. :/

 

[harshad]

Shame that he couldn't keep it up for the entire series!

For me, Liveships is way out in front, Ketty Jay in clear second, then a group of other series like Powder Mage, Long Price, Riyria, Stormlight, His Dark Materials, Mistborn, etc. Fires of Heaven probably belongs in that third category.

I think I need to read more...

You haven't read ASOIAF?

 

[Raptori]

You haven't read ASOIAF?

Nope! I'm wary of trying it to be honest - based on the bad reviews, it has a lot of the bad points that I can't stand... :/

 

[Waldner]

Nope! I'm wary of trying it to be honest - based on the bad reviews, it has a lot of the bad points that I can't stand... :/

You're now banned from this thread until you begin reading those books!

What are the bad points you've heard?

 

[harshad]

Nope! I'm wary of trying it to be honest - based on the bad reviews, it has a lot of the bad points that I can't stand... :/

Honestly, never heard any bad review about the series. There is a lot of dissatisfaction with the length and couple of plot points but still nothing major to stop me wondering when the next book will get released.

 

[Raptori]

You're now banned from this thread until you begin reading those books!

What are the bad points you've heard?

Lol I don't think I'd ever be let back in! We almost bought them recently since someone was selling them dirt cheap, but didn't in the end.

So many things... for example pretty much everything that this review mentions.

Honestly, never heard any bad review about the series. There is a lot of dissatisfaction with the length and couple of plot points but still nothing major to stop me wondering when the next book will get released.

There are 12,671 one star reviews on Goodreads, so while that's only 1% of the ratings it's not like it's that much of an uncommon view!

 

[Nighteyes]

Lol I don't think I'd ever be let back in! We almost bought them recently since someone was selling them dirt cheap, but didn't in the end.

So many things... for example pretty much everything that this review mentions.

There are 12,671 one star reviews on Goodreads, so while that's only 1% of the ratings it's not like it's that much of an uncommon view!

That review is a bit ridiculous and lacks any sort of context. For instance, it mentions Jaime trying to kill Bran as sickening and unredeemable and yet he was voted the best character in the series on Reddit a couple of weeks back by a comfortable distance. So, it appears a large part of the fanbase completely disagree with that statement. In fact, my top two best written characters in the series have both either killed or tried to kill children. Even the breastfeeding part of the review lacks context.

 

[Raptori]

That review is a bit ridiculous and lacks any sort of context. For instance, it mentions Jaime trying to kill Bran as sickening and unredeemable and yet he was voted the best character in the series on Reddit a couple of weeks back by a comfortable distance. So, it appears a large part of the fanbase completely disagree with that statement. In fact, my top two best written characters in the series have both either killed or tried to kill children. Even the breastfeeding part of the review lacks context.

Mmh I generally expect all reviews to lack context, since they can't really convey the entire story of the book. Not really a valid criticism imo.

 

[Revan]

Nope! I'm wary of trying it to be honest - based on the bad reviews, it has a lot of the bad points that I can't stand... :/

Did I ever said that you're a fool? In case I didn't, I am saying it now.

Seriously man, read it. In pretty much any forum/poll I have ever seen, it is the highest rated fantasy series ever. Although there are elitists who say that Malazan is the greatest thing since beer, and noobs who have read only LotR and Harry Potter and say that those two are the best (as I said without reading others), from what I have seen the general consensus is that ASOIAF (or at least the first three books of it) are the best fantasy saga of all time.

 

[harshad]

Some of those reviews on Goodreads are really fun to read.

 

[Raptori]

Did I ever said that you're a fool? In case I didn't, I am saying it now.

Seriously man, read it. In pretty much any forum/poll I have ever seen, it is the highest rated fantasy series ever. Although there are elitists who say that Malazan is the greatest thing since beer, and noobs who have read only LotR and Harry Potter and say that those two are the best (as I said without reading others), from what I have seen the general consensus is that ASOIAF (or at least the first three books of it) are the best fantasy saga of all time.

Well the Fool is awesome, so...

I might, some day.

Honestly though, even the good reviews of it don't really make me want to read it. For example the points from this review:

1 (You are tired of formulaic fantasy): Actually I've read very little formulaic fantasy, but that's because there's a ton of other stuff which is not formulaic.
2 (You are tired of all the heroes staying alive even though they are under constant danger): Somewhat, but it's not a massive issue for me.
3 (You are a medieval history buff): Hell no. I hate it.
4 (You love serious intrigue without stupid opponents): I enjoy 'intrigue' stories, but it's not something that makes me sit up and take notice.
5 (You are interested in biased opinions and different truths): Yep, but again that's not actually that rare in my experience.
6 (Legends): Meh.
7 (Wordplay): None of those look particularly good to me.
8 (Lots of conflict): Yep, but it's not rare at all.
9 (Multilayered plotting): Yes, but from what I've heard his plots are all over the place.
10 (Varied characters): Yes, but again it's not rare, and I've seen a lot of complaints about his characters being flat.
11 (Realistic medieval dialogue): Not interested.
12 (Symbolism and prophecy): Not interested.
13 (Mysteries): Yeah, but they're everywhere.
14 (Good female characters): Yeah, but it's not rare.
15 (Low magic): Don't care either way.

Also, point 4 against is a major turn-off for me. Not bothered about swearing, but for me sex in books is like talking about your parents doing it.

So there are some things about it that sound like I'd enjoy it, but they're easily found elsewhere, and some of the things people point to as major plus points (like the setting and the writing) put me off.

 

[Nighteyes]

Mmh I generally expect all reviews to lack context, since they can't really convey the entire story of the book. Not really a valid criticism imo.

Which is why the review is a bit pointless. It's like me saying Malta is a really shit and annoying character after reading the Ship of Magic. She may remain that way or she may grow as a person. I don't know, but I'm going to give the author a chance to complete the character arc before I make any judgment and stop reading. That's why I never review a series before I complete it.

For what it's worth, I don't think there's a better writer than Martin when it comes to characterizations. Robin Hobb is probably the closest to him of all the other authors I've read but Martin has done it on a far bigger scale. And it's accompanied by a by a very intricate and engaging plot. I used to think the plot was slow tbh but now that I've read some other series' I'd say it's on the quicker side if anything. It's no slower than either Farseer or Liveships (only read 1st book). It's only the grand scale of the book that makes it look like slow (and the time between each book unfortunately). And it's faster than the likes of First Law, LotR, WoT etc..

 

[Revan]

Also, point 4 against is a major turn-off for me. Not bothered about swearing, but for me sex in books is like talking about your parents doing it.

So there are some things about it that sound like I'd enjoy it, but they're easily found elsewhere, and some of the things people point to as major plus points (like the setting and the writing) put me off.

Are you a mormon?

Pro-cons on ASOIAF IMO:

- characters (by far it has the best and most complex set of characters in any fantasa saga. It is ridiculous how good they are).
- politics (the only thing that is probably better than characters is how well the politics are done in ASOIAF).
- writing - while not brilliant (which fantasy book has brilliant writing anyway?) is quite good.
- being real - again, it is better than other books in that aspect. Things doesn't just happen, they happen for some reason. For example you see in the third book some radical religious group in some parts of the world. You see them seen like outcasts. By the end of the fifth book they have taken control of the religion in the kingdom and now are as strong as any party there. The way how that develops is nothing short of amazing.
- dialogue - very very good.
- prophecies and other generic fantasy stuff - like in other fantasy sagas. But the difference is that in this book you don't have any idea if the prophecies are real or manipulated. Or both.
- dark and grim - it has some good balance. While not in the level of Abercrombie (and definitely not in Lawrence/Bakker level) it is still very good.
- Gray characters - only Abercrombie 'might' be better at it.
- geography - perfectly defined. After a couple of books you will know the geography of that world better than our geography.
- magic - I must say that this hasn't been done well. It is a world where the magic is 'coming back', but in some cases it looks like 'deus ex machina'.
- pace - books usually have the same patters. Big building for a big clusterfeck that will happen in the last 200 pages.

And the best:
- not predictable - without telling much, from the first book you'll see that any character is in danger of dying. You might root for someone, and think that he is the protagonists, and then some pages later his head might be chopped. No character is safe here. Heroes don't survive cause they are kind guys. If they can't play the game of thrones well, they they will die. In fact, those who are ruthless have more chances of surviving than the good guys who might make wrong decisions.

 

[Raptori]

Which is why the review is a bit pointless. It's like me saying Malta is a really shit and annoying character after reading the Ship of Magic. She may remain that way or she may grow as a person. I don't know, but I'm going to give the author a chance to complete the character arc before I make any judgment and stop reading. That's why I never review a series before I complete it.

For what it's worth, I don't think there's a better writer than Martin when it comes to characterizations. Robin Hobb is probably the closest to him of all the other authors I've read but Martin has done it on a far bigger scale. And it's accompanied by a by a very intricate and engaging plot. I used to think the plot was slow tbh but now that I've read some other series' I'd say it's on the quicker side if anything. It's no slower than either Farseer or Liveships (only read 1st book). It's only the grand scale of the book that makes it look like slow (and the time between each book unfortunately). And it's faster than the likes of First Law, LotR, WoT etc..

Few people wait until the end of a series to review though, and people who dislike a book often have valid points even if they haven't finished the series. If I'm not going to enjoy the ride then why bother starting? I stopped reading Malazan for that reason - I wasn't enjoying reading it, and wading through hundreds of thousands of words because most people who did so enjoyed it in the end just feels pointless when there are dozens of other books that I could be enjoying.

Are you a mormon?

Pro-cons on ASOIAF IMO:

- characters (by far it has the best and most complex set of characters in any fantasa saga. It is ridiculous how good they are).
- politics (the only thing that is probably better than characters is how well the politics are done in ASOIAF).
- writing - while not brilliant (which fantasy book has brilliant writing anyway?) is quite good.
- being real - again, it is better than other books in that aspect. Things doesn't just happen, they happen for some reason. For example you see in the third book some radical religious group in some parts of the world. You see them seen like outcasts. By the end of the fifth book they have taken control of the religion in the kingdom and now are as strong as any party there. The way how that develops is nothing short of amazing.
- dialogue - very very good.
- prophecies and other generic fantasy stuff - like in other fantasy sagas. But the difference is that in this book you don't have any idea if the prophecies are real or manipulated. Or both.
- dark and grim - it has some good balance. While not in the level of Abercrombie (and definitely not in Lawrence/Bakker level) it is still very good.
- Gray characters - only Abercrombie 'might' be better at it.
- geography - perfectly defined. After a couple of books you will know the geography of that world better than our geography.
- magic - I must say that this hasn't been done well. It is a world where the magic is 'coming back', but in some cases it looks like 'deus ex machina'.
- pace - books usually have the same patters. Big building for a big clusterfeck that will happen in the last 200 pages.

And the best:
- not predictable - without telling much, from the first book you'll see that any character is in danger of dying. You might root for someone, and think that he is the protagonists, and then some pages later his head might be chopped. No character is safe here. Heroes don't survive cause they are kind guys. If they can't play the game of thrones well, they they will die. In fact, those who are ruthless have more chances of surviving than the good guys who might make wrong decisions.

No, I just don't enjoy it. Why do people find that weird?

Still not sold, it's based on the part of history that I hated the most. The general tone doesn't really appeal to me. I'm sure I'd enjoy aspects of it, but why force myself through a load of stuff I don't like?

 

[Nighteyes]

Few people wait until the end of a series to review though, and people who dislike a book often have valid points even if they haven't finished the series. If I'm not going to enjoy the ride then why bother starting? I stopped reading Malazan for that reason - I wasn't enjoying reading it, and wading through hundreds of thousands of words because most people who did so enjoyed it in the end just feels pointless when there are dozens of other books that I could be enjoying.

That's fair enough. I just found it funny how that reviewer picked up one of the best characters in the entire series as a means of criticism...

I do think you are missing out though I'll say one thing though...the praise is often misdirected. It's not brilliant because it's different (I'd argue it's not really all that different). It's brilliant because it's written in a way that's better than anything else out there.

I'm surprised though, there's sex in the Ship of Magic.

 

[Raptori]

That's fair enough. I just found it funny how that reviewer picked up one of the best characters in the entire series as a means of criticism...

I do think you are missing out though I'll say one thing though...the praise is often misdirected. It's not brilliant because it's different (I'd argue it's not really all that different). It's brilliant because it's written in a way that's better than anything else out there.

I'm surprised though, there's sex in the Ship of Magic.

Yeah I get what you mean, but it could be a case of the character not working for them. Everyone has different favourites, for example the guy who recommended Ketty Jay loved one character in particular who I couldn't stand at all.

Probably, but I'm happy waiting until we find a really cheap copy somewhere! Yeah that definitely sounds right, there are a lot of things that people praise about it that are pretty commonplace, but there are a few reviews out there that say it's the quality rather than the content.

Yeah most of the time it's not a problem - for example one of the Liveships books has a rape scene in it and that doesn't bother me a bit - it's more the tone and the quantity. From what people say it's constant and gratuitous in ASOIAF, which just doesn't interest me. :/

 

[Edgar Allan Pillow]

And the best:
- not predictable - without telling much, from the first book you'll see that any character is in danger of dying. You might root for someone, and think that he is the protagonists, and then some pages later his head might be chopped. No character is safe here. Heroes don't survive cause they are kind guys. If they can't play the game of thrones well, they they will die. In fact, those who are ruthless have more chances of surviving than the good guys who might make wrong decisions.

Tbh, after reading the 5th book half-way, I kinda gave up. There's just way too much happening with overall plot not progressing at all. After sometime you simply wonder whether many of those characters who appear and die actually matter to the greater plot. It was good at first, but became a chore to remember the links and sub-plots which may or may not impact the bigger picture. It is a masterpiece for being complex, but then again...each to their tastes!

 

[Edgar Allan Pillow]

8 Dresden books in 3 weeks. I'm thundering through the series. Really a good read.

 

[Revan]

Tbh, after reading the 5th book half-way, I kinda gave up. There's just way too much happening with overall plot not progressing at all. After sometime you simply wonder whether many of those characters who appear and die actually matter to the greater plot. It was good at first, but became a chore to remember the links and sub-plots which may or may not impact the bigger picture. It is a masterpiece for being complex, but then again...each to their tastes!

Well books 4 and 5 are generally considered to be weak compared to the first three books. But I hope that they will serve in the building to the endgame which should be in the last two books. Obviously, it is possible that Martin just lost his way in the story.

The first three books are the pinnacle of the high fantasy genre IMO.

 

[Raptori]

Well books 4 and 5 are generally considered to be weak compared to the first three books. But I hope that they will serve in the building to the endgame which should be in the last two books. Obviously, it is possible that Martin just lost his way in the story.

The first three books are the pinnacle of the high fantasy genre IMO.

Considering that he's an outspoken discovery writer, this does sound extremely likely.

 

[caid]

Yeah I get what you mean, but it could be a case of the character not working for them. Everyone has different favourites, for example the guy who recommended Ketty Jay loved one character in particular who I couldn't stand at all.

Probably, but I'm happy waiting until we find a really cheap copy somewhere! Yeah that definitely sounds right, there are a lot of things that people praise about it that are pretty commonplace, but there are a few reviews out there that say it's the quality rather than the content.

Yeah most of the time it's not a problem - for example one of the Liveships books has a rape scene in it and that doesn't bother me a bit - it's more the tone and the quantity. From what people say it's constant and gratuitous in ASOIAF, which just doesn't interest me. :/

Its really not tbh ... ok the first book is a bit. Theres a lot of people standing around naked mostly but there isn't that much sex and when it is there it feels appropriate
(so far, some parts later in the series are a bit rapey, which does bother me - i hated that part in liveships)
Honestly Robin Hobb is a good comparison, hes as good a writer and the quality of their books makes them worthwhile even if the content isn't particularly to your liking

I'm reading it again atm and i'm most of the way through the first book, there's some really cringey lines like Tyrion's introduction which is possibly the worst introduction of a character ever.
Its not flawless tbh, he trips up occasionally which is a bit weird for a guy who spends 5 years writing them ... but i like a lot of his foreshadowing which makes reading it a 2nd time quite enjoyable.
His world building is top tier too

 

[Raptori]

Its really not tbh ... ok the first book is a bit. Theres a lot of people standing around naked mostly but there isn't that much sex and when it is there it feels appropriate
(so far, some parts later in the series are a bit rapey, which does bother me - i hated that part in liveships)
Honestly Robin Hobb is a good comparison, hes as good a writer and the quality of their books makes them worthwhile even if the content isn't particularly to your liking

I'm reading it again atm and i'm most of the way through the first book, there's some really cringey lines like Tyrion's introduction which is possibly the worst introduction of a character ever.
Its not flawless tbh, he trips up occasionally which is a bit weird for a guy who spends 5 years writing them ... but i like a lot of his foreshadowing which makes reading it a 2nd time quite enjoyable.
His world building is top tier too

Those bits made me laugh

 

[IrishLegend]

How it looked to you Fires of Heaven? Best book ever? Second best?

That's the one i'm just about to finish, Definitely the best of the series so far. Still think he goes into far too much detail and the story jumps around the place like he has ADHD. The last few chapters have been great. The book before was fecking painful to read though.

 

[Revan]

That's the one i'm just about to finish, Definitely the best of the series so far. Still think he goes into far too much detail and the story jumps around the place like he has ADHD. The last few chapters have been great. The book before was fecking painful to read though.

I loved the Shadow Rising. The history of Aiel is one of the highlights of the series.

Fires of Heaven (as I said many times) is definitely the best book in the saga. The ending is just