It's a sham that FIA left drivers point untouched.
F1 - McLaren escape, by a whisker
- Thread starter enghuei
- Start date
McLaren have been found guilty, but I do think that their punishment was a little bit harsh.
Teams are constantly gaining information from other teams. There's so much money involved almost every major team has moles in the other teams.
The only real difference here is that McLaren were actually in possession of a physical dossier. I think that if they hadn't had that, then there probably wouldn't have been a punishment at all.
Teams are constantly gaining information from other teams. There's so much money involved almost every major team has moles in the other teams.
The only real difference here is that McLaren were actually in possession of a physical dossier. I think that if they hadn't had that, then there probably wouldn't have been a punishment at all.
How the hell did you interpret what I said last as defending McClaren? You're a complete tit who doesn't know what he's on about, kindly refrain from quoting my posts if you're going to misrepresent them so
Wow, and you had the cheek to have a go at others.
They should have reported to the FIA instead of using the info. And there is no way Ron Dennis was out of the loop, he is lying out of his teeth. He is hardly going to come out and admit that they cheated. They have got no excuse or explanation to give really.
McLaren have cheated plain and simple and got off far too lightly.
I had the cheek to ask for people to wait for the facts, just like Stemmy, who clearly had allegences to the other team involved in this, called for. And now we have them. I'd love to know what McClarens defence was. They must have known what the evidence was given the rumours before this council meeting... they must have some comeback. But so far it appears not. I'm astonished really. I still wouldn't say it deserved a £50 million fine though, that's just outragous. Who gets that money incidently, the FIA?!
Well....there's the new evidence alright.
Although it's wierd that only Hamilton is absolutely clean..... and that De LA Rosa explained to Alonso in his email who Nigel Stepney and Mike Coughlan were, and that they left the McLaren drivers in the championship....and surely Ron Dennis heard all this at the hearing yesterday but still insisted there was no proof....even though Todt insisted the truth had come out. The whole thing stinks.
Although it's wierd that only Hamilton is absolutely clean..... and that De LA Rosa explained to Alonso in his email who Nigel Stepney and Mike Coughlan were, and that they left the McLaren drivers in the championship....and surely Ron Dennis heard all this at the hearing yesterday but still insisted there was no proof....even though Todt insisted the truth had come out. The whole thing stinks.
Exactly, well said. It still doesn't make any sense. Especially McClarens position in the few days before and since the judgement. They are either lying out of their back teeth, or there is something fundimental that hasn't been revealed yet. Sadly, it looks like McClaren won't appeal the decision, and that might finally tell us all we need to know
I said before in this thread (post 42) that I think it appears they got off lightly before the facts came out and now I really do think they did. The amount of money involved in F1 is amazing and they would spend much more than 50m designing next years car...
Anyway I looked to see what was said about it and well Ron Dennis said this...
450.00 USD = 224.370 GBP
I don't know a lot about all this accounts and the exact amounts of money involved but I just can't see it impacting McLaren that much over the long term.
Anyway besides all that I don't really know what to think, I'm sure there is something else happening behind the scenes. Too much lying/cheating and pushing for various outcomes.
Alonso may have come clean about the emails, seen as they were his, and also remember he wasn't at the hearing on Thursday - he was at Spa - the next race.
I'm sure more and more will be slowly revealed over the course of the weekend.
I have no idea why people still think there is something left to be seen.
Evidence is out and McLaren were never going to admit they cheated no matter how revealing the evidence was. Note that only Hamilton attended yesterday, not Alonso who was directly involved.
Only unanswered thing left is why the drivers have been allowed to keep points.
Also I am not sure if the fine was too big or not. McLaren should have been expelled atleast for a season. That would have neen much more financial hit I would have thought?
Evidence is out and McLaren were never going to admit they cheated no matter how revealing the evidence was. Note that only Hamilton attended yesterday, not Alonso who was directly involved.
Only unanswered thing left is why the drivers have been allowed to keep points.
Also I am not sure if the fine was too big or not. McLaren should have been expelled atleast for a season. That would have neen much more financial hit I would have thought?
I hope this episode make more people realise that F1 really should not be classified as a sport. It's all a farce.
Bernie Ecclestone
McLaren 'came close to exclusion'
http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/motorsport/formula_one/6995594.stm
McLaren 'came close to exclusion'
http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/motorsport/formula_one/6995594.stm
Has anyone speculated how did those emails got leaked?
I know Marching said Hamilton Snr handed them over, which sounds bullshit.
I know Marching said Hamilton Snr handed them over, which sounds bullshit.
If anything Alonso leaking them out would make more sense, he seems more pissed with McLaren than Hamilton. One of them is moving next season
I still think it is a sport and all that but I know what you are getting at, Formula 1 just isn't what it used to be - they need to sort it out.
Don't forget its not the only sport to have its controversies - the last West Ham/Tevez thing just last season should prove that.
You may well be right on most of that, don't see what difference it makes that Hamilton attended though. He likes to let on that he's one of the boys, and he races for them, that's all that was, bit fake IMO, but that's what you're up against. And, if it's a financial hit you're looking for.....why not just fine them $500m?
Total over-reaction, although I do sympathise. It's a fantastic sport that has been largely ruined.
You'd do well not to trust Bernie as far as you could throw him. He lost it a long time ago. He loves money. He will do anything to the sport for money, which may have been fine when they hadn't a pot to piss in, but now it's disgusting.
and also implicates Hamilton jnr.
You mean he's a crook.
I'd say that if we want to get a decent exciting sport back, he's part of the problem.
Plus, he has £3bn....I'd be shocked if he was entirely straight.
Hamilton loves McLaren far too much to do anything that would hurt them. I am suprised at Alonso, though, if he was the reason the E-Mails came to light. I mean, he might not be entirely happy at McLaren, but he is chasing down Hamilton's lead, and he's won the last race. He might still win the title, so almost getting your team kicked out is not a very wise thing to do.
Also, I suspect he's got a bit of a reputation as a squealer now. Whilst they probably don't do it to the extent that McLaren were doing it, I suspect almost every team on the grid is involved in some dodgy bit of business one way or another. They'll think twice about hiring Alonso now, when he inevitably leaves McLaren at the end of the year.
True, he is the face of the F1 hierarchy really, removing him would be impossible though I think - he has to many links and has just sorted out deals with half of these race tracks.
That is a definite, it's common practice, even in the race just something as simple as timing the pitstops, fuel and tyres. Teams always look at other teams designs like front wing shapes etc.
Oh yeah I've just remembered the whole flexi-wing issue that Ferrari got in trouble over hasn't been brought up in these events of late - McLaren could well have got this information and complained... Teams do spy on each other and to a certain extent is allowed.
Alonso's attitude towards the team is confusing. He runs them down at every opportunity, yet needs his side to be completely devoted to him if he's going to beat Hamilton, who says he loves the team at every opportunity.
I don't buy Hamilton. He's a great driver, no question - a brilliant driver, but I don't buy the way he carries on. I think Lewis Hamilton is all about Lewis Hamilton. Alonso is just the same, plus he comes across as a plain cnut, which, funnily enough, is far more endearing. He doesn't hide his cuntishness. Hungary was fascinating for the amateur psychologist.
I don't think Alonso will suffer from being known as a squealer. I think he's a domineering prick,but a brilliant driver and utterly ruthless. I hope he leaves McLaren just so we can see him and Hamilton have a crack at each other for real.
A mess indeed, humouring though.
By the way if anybody wants to read the actual FIA document outlining the ruling then click on the following link:
http://www.planetf1.com/story/0,18954,3213_2728560,00.html
Signed by none other than FIA President, Max Mosley..
I have to warn you though it looks an extremely long, boring, and legally worded report!
By the way if anybody wants to read the actual FIA document outlining the ruling then click on the following link:
http://www.planetf1.com/story/0,18954,3213_2728560,00.html
Signed by none other than FIA President, Max Mosley..
I have to warn you though it looks an extremely long, boring, and legally worded report!
Fck off you bstard!
How deluded are you?You clearly were defending Mclaren if not in the post I mentioned.
Fcking hypocrite!
Cold_Boy....stop being such a fecking twat will ya
Brad, to be honest 50 million for espionage at this level is quite small....top teams have bigger budgets than the top football clubs in the world....your talking half a billion plus, per year! you just heard Dennis pretty much say that McLaren could easily pay it off, granted i reckon they're budget for next year is going to be smaller given they'll also lose the money you get for not winning the constructors which i think(heard it some where) is in the region of $70 million.
I don't get this driver thing though to be honest and Ferraris stance on it...how are people going to react to a McLaren world champion? because you can pretty much gaurantee one of them is going to be world champion granted there isn't any more shocking surprises
Brad, to be honest 50 million for espionage at this level is quite small....top teams have bigger budgets than the top football clubs in the world....your talking half a billion plus, per year! you just heard Dennis pretty much say that McLaren could easily pay it off, granted i reckon they're budget for next year is going to be smaller given they'll also lose the money you get for not winning the constructors which i think(heard it some where) is in the region of $70 million.
I don't get this driver thing though to be honest and Ferraris stance on it...how are people going to react to a McLaren world champion? because you can pretty much gaurantee one of them is going to be world champion granted there isn't any more shocking surprises
lonso row led to McLaren's downfall - Reuters
Sat 15 Sep, 01:41 PM
SPA-FRANCORCHAMPS, Belgium (Reuters) - McLaren boss Ron Dennis has defended Fernando Alonso against suggestions the Formula One champion should be fired for his role in a spying scandal that cost the team a title and $100 million.
Revealing how a row with the Spaniard on the morning of last month's Hungarian Grand Prix triggered a phone call that led to the loss of all McLaren's 2007 constructors' points and a record fine, Dennis made clear on Saturday he had only one aim.
"My job is to win the world championship. My job isn't for people to love and hug me," he told British reporters at the Belgian Grand Prix after being asked directly why he had not fired his driver.
"If I have difficult relationships with people, I have difficult relationships with them. You don't take your guns out and shoot people every which way.
"It's not a love-in. I want to have positive relationships with my drivers but it's difficult sometimes."
While Dennis would not go into details of their meeting in Budapest, he said Alonso had mentioned e-mails in his possession that could incriminate the team in an investigation into leaked Ferrari data.
British newspaper reports on Saturday accused the 26-year-old of demanding at the meeting that the team either make him their number one driver or let him go, and threatening to go to the governing FIA.
The Guardian quoted Alonso's manager Luis Garcia denying the reports as "complete rubbish".
SOURED RELATIONS
The Spaniard, reported to be seeking a return to Renault, had been stripped of pole position and demoted five places the day before for impeding 22-year-old British rookie team mate Lewis Hamilton in qualifying.
Alonso's relationship with the team had already turned sour by then over their refusal to favour him over championship-leading Hamilton.
"Fernando arrived, pretty upset by many things. I'm not going to give you the detail," said Dennis.
"In a conversation that took place he said 'I have something in my e-mail system which is from one of your engineers'.
"(McLaren chief executive) Martin (Whitmarsh) and I looked at each other and Martin said 'Fernando should inform the FIA'.
"When Fernando left, I phoned the FIA. I told them what happened and put the phone down.
"Half an hour later, Fernando's manager came back and said 'look I'm sorry, he was angry blah blah blah' and retracted everything," said Dennis.
The Briton said he again rang the FIA and after the race Alonso came to his office and apologised for what had happened.
At the end of the month, the International Automobile Federation (FIA) wrote to the McLaren drivers asking them to hand over any information they had about Ferrari technical information obtained from now-suspended chief designer Mike Coughlan.
The FIA on Friday published e-mails from the team's test driver Pedro de la Rosa and Alonso, evidence presented at a hearing in Paris that imposed the sanctions on McLaren.
Dennis likened the Hungary incident to a domestic row when one partner says something that they did not mean and then regretted.
"That is the benefit I am giving to Fernando," he said.
"My objective is to win races. I believe that if someone says things, and subsequently retracts them and apologises, I move on."
Dennis also dismissed a suggestion that Alonso's behaviour towards him had been the most extreme he had experienced from a driver in 40 years in the sport.
"It's the most extreme thing that you know about," he said. "I could tell you some things...I would like you to understand the nature of competitive animals. They know no limit."
Sat 15 Sep, 01:41 PM
SPA-FRANCORCHAMPS, Belgium (Reuters) - McLaren boss Ron Dennis has defended Fernando Alonso against suggestions the Formula One champion should be fired for his role in a spying scandal that cost the team a title and $100 million.
Revealing how a row with the Spaniard on the morning of last month's Hungarian Grand Prix triggered a phone call that led to the loss of all McLaren's 2007 constructors' points and a record fine, Dennis made clear on Saturday he had only one aim.
"My job is to win the world championship. My job isn't for people to love and hug me," he told British reporters at the Belgian Grand Prix after being asked directly why he had not fired his driver.
"If I have difficult relationships with people, I have difficult relationships with them. You don't take your guns out and shoot people every which way.
"It's not a love-in. I want to have positive relationships with my drivers but it's difficult sometimes."
While Dennis would not go into details of their meeting in Budapest, he said Alonso had mentioned e-mails in his possession that could incriminate the team in an investigation into leaked Ferrari data.
British newspaper reports on Saturday accused the 26-year-old of demanding at the meeting that the team either make him their number one driver or let him go, and threatening to go to the governing FIA.
The Guardian quoted Alonso's manager Luis Garcia denying the reports as "complete rubbish".
SOURED RELATIONS
The Spaniard, reported to be seeking a return to Renault, had been stripped of pole position and demoted five places the day before for impeding 22-year-old British rookie team mate Lewis Hamilton in qualifying.
Alonso's relationship with the team had already turned sour by then over their refusal to favour him over championship-leading Hamilton.
"Fernando arrived, pretty upset by many things. I'm not going to give you the detail," said Dennis.
"In a conversation that took place he said 'I have something in my e-mail system which is from one of your engineers'.
"(McLaren chief executive) Martin (Whitmarsh) and I looked at each other and Martin said 'Fernando should inform the FIA'.
"When Fernando left, I phoned the FIA. I told them what happened and put the phone down.
"Half an hour later, Fernando's manager came back and said 'look I'm sorry, he was angry blah blah blah' and retracted everything," said Dennis.
The Briton said he again rang the FIA and after the race Alonso came to his office and apologised for what had happened.
At the end of the month, the International Automobile Federation (FIA) wrote to the McLaren drivers asking them to hand over any information they had about Ferrari technical information obtained from now-suspended chief designer Mike Coughlan.
The FIA on Friday published e-mails from the team's test driver Pedro de la Rosa and Alonso, evidence presented at a hearing in Paris that imposed the sanctions on McLaren.
Dennis likened the Hungary incident to a domestic row when one partner says something that they did not mean and then regretted.
"That is the benefit I am giving to Fernando," he said.
"My objective is to win races. I believe that if someone says things, and subsequently retracts them and apologises, I move on."
Dennis also dismissed a suggestion that Alonso's behaviour towards him had been the most extreme he had experienced from a driver in 40 years in the sport.
"It's the most extreme thing that you know about," he said. "I could tell you some things...I would like you to understand the nature of competitive animals. They know no limit."
Yes well done Mclyin. Blame the foreigner. Of course thats how it happened.
Quite a U turn by Dennis. From they got nothing on us to I was the one who turned over the evidence.
He's great at a bit of PR ain't he...
McLaren hint they may not appeal
http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/motorsport/formula_one/6996485.stm
Its pathetic. Of course the British media will swallow all of it and Alonso will be made the scapegoat.
If anyone of the drivers move it will obviously be Alonso. I don't think anybody here needs to be told of the life-long connections Hamilton has with McLaren and even if things got really bad McLaren would not move the next British motoring superstar on...
It would have to be Alonso even though he has stated his intention to remain with the team...
More in the link...
http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/motorsport/formula_one/6996172.stm
It would have to be Alonso even though he has stated his intention to remain with the team...
More in the link...
http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/motorsport/formula_one/6996172.stm
That is true but then I think many of the problems stem from the fact that he has problems within the team and not being number 1.
It is an exceptional case where he has joined one of the big teams and met such a strong fight from a team-mate - a rookie who was meant to be finding his feet being helped along by the double world champion.
If say he moved to any of the other teams apart from Ferrari he would undoubtedly be the number 1 driver with the whole team concentrating on him like it was at Renault.
The fact that he is so talented and still at the moment the best overall driver in Formula 1 may just mean that teams will overlook some of the events of this season.
Not that difficult to be best overall for Hamilton - they have a superior car Got the best technique from two teams i.e. McLaren and Ferrari - no doubt you will have quite a car. They should be banned and both their drivers thrown out.
That said, Hamilton, he has been impressive this season, he has beaten his fair more experienced teammate which is impressive.
Alonso's exit sure to be as fast as his car
By MALCOLM FOLLEY - Mail on Sunday
Last updated at 23:56pm on 15th September 2007
Fernando Alonso, who arrived at McLaren-Mercedes to the accompaniment of fanfares, is heading for the exit door in the shadow of Lewis Hamilton.
The 22-year-old English rookie has proved in six spectacular months' work as a Formula One driver that he has the speed, intelligence and race craft to make the departure of the two-time world champion a negotiable piece of business for beleaguered team principal Ron Dennis.
Alonso's implication at the heart of the spygate scandal, which last week saw McLaren fined $100million and excluded from the constructors' championship, has made the Spaniard's ongoing relationship with the British team unsustainable.
But the pragmatic nature of the sport will mean that both drivers will compete without favouritism for the world championship over the final four races, beginning here at the Belgian Grand Prix this afternoon.
Beyond that, the team relationship is strained to breaking point.
Yesterday, allegations surfaced that Alonso had five weeks ago threatened to reveal to the sport's governing body that McLaren were in possession of data and technical details gained illegally from Ferrari.
The price of his silence was to be given No 1 status at McLaren, or released from his contract, according to informed sources.
When the accusation was put to Alonso yesterday, the 26-year-old said: 'I have no comment.Everyone is speaking, everyone is speculating, but we are here to race. If Ron said something, it is because he wanted to say something. I am a racing driver and I will answer questions on tyres and engines and things like this.'
Last night, Dennis revealed that Alonso had declined an invitation to join him and McLaren's legal defence team at the FIA's disciplinary hearing in Paris on Thursday.
'We gave the drivers a choice of attending or not,' he explained.
'We preferred them all to be there — but they had to come of their own free will. Lewis was there, but in actuality the statements from both Fernando and Lewis were short, if contrasting.'
Hamilton,who has been groomed and financed through his nine-year apprenticeship by McLaren,felt the ties of loyalty in these hours of grave duress for Dennis.
'For me, I thought it was quite important to support the team because I think they needed as much support as they could get,' he said.
Much of the evidence in Paris involved email traffic between Alonso and test driver Pedro de la Rosa discussing information passed from McLaren's shamed chief engineer Mike Coughlan after he had been in contact with Nigel Stepney, a disaffected former chief mechanic with Ferrari. Why was Hamilton not part of the correspondence,the young Englishman was asked in a media briefing shared with Alonso here last night.
'The last email exchange I had with Pedro was in Malaysia in April,' said Hamilton. 'And that was about a female! I don't have Fernando's email address.'
Alonso and Hamilton will begin the Belgian Grand Prix alongside each other on the second row of the grid after Ferrari drivers Kimi Raikkonen and Felipe Massa annexed the front row in a thrilling climax to yesterday's qualifying session.
Alonso has closed the gap Hamilton holds at the head of the world championship to just three points.
Yet there is a sense that he is operating within his own camp, and rumours persist that Flavio Briatore is preparing to reclaim Alonso for Renault once the dust from this acrimonious season has finally cleared.
Dennis said pointedly: 'We have contracts with both drivers and those contracts are not under discussion. Our objectives are focused on the remaining races. If there is any desire to discuss those contracts they will be addressed at the appropriate time.'
Like when the world championship has been decided.
To darken the mood in the paddock further, McLaren data has allegedly been exported to the Renault team from a former engineer in the employment of Dennis's organisation. Does the sport have the stomach for another scandal?
Last night, Dennis offered a strong hint that he does not propose to appeal against the penalties, saying:' No matter how beaten up I am or kicked around I feel, the fact is I am still passionate about Formula One.'
By MALCOLM FOLLEY - Mail on Sunday
Last updated at 23:56pm on 15th September 2007
Fernando Alonso, who arrived at McLaren-Mercedes to the accompaniment of fanfares, is heading for the exit door in the shadow of Lewis Hamilton.
The 22-year-old English rookie has proved in six spectacular months' work as a Formula One driver that he has the speed, intelligence and race craft to make the departure of the two-time world champion a negotiable piece of business for beleaguered team principal Ron Dennis.
Alonso's implication at the heart of the spygate scandal, which last week saw McLaren fined $100million and excluded from the constructors' championship, has made the Spaniard's ongoing relationship with the British team unsustainable.
But the pragmatic nature of the sport will mean that both drivers will compete without favouritism for the world championship over the final four races, beginning here at the Belgian Grand Prix this afternoon.
Beyond that, the team relationship is strained to breaking point.
Yesterday, allegations surfaced that Alonso had five weeks ago threatened to reveal to the sport's governing body that McLaren were in possession of data and technical details gained illegally from Ferrari.
The price of his silence was to be given No 1 status at McLaren, or released from his contract, according to informed sources.
When the accusation was put to Alonso yesterday, the 26-year-old said: 'I have no comment.Everyone is speaking, everyone is speculating, but we are here to race. If Ron said something, it is because he wanted to say something. I am a racing driver and I will answer questions on tyres and engines and things like this.'
Last night, Dennis revealed that Alonso had declined an invitation to join him and McLaren's legal defence team at the FIA's disciplinary hearing in Paris on Thursday.
'We gave the drivers a choice of attending or not,' he explained.
'We preferred them all to be there — but they had to come of their own free will. Lewis was there, but in actuality the statements from both Fernando and Lewis were short, if contrasting.'
Hamilton,who has been groomed and financed through his nine-year apprenticeship by McLaren,felt the ties of loyalty in these hours of grave duress for Dennis.
'For me, I thought it was quite important to support the team because I think they needed as much support as they could get,' he said.
Much of the evidence in Paris involved email traffic between Alonso and test driver Pedro de la Rosa discussing information passed from McLaren's shamed chief engineer Mike Coughlan after he had been in contact with Nigel Stepney, a disaffected former chief mechanic with Ferrari. Why was Hamilton not part of the correspondence,the young Englishman was asked in a media briefing shared with Alonso here last night.
'The last email exchange I had with Pedro was in Malaysia in April,' said Hamilton. 'And that was about a female! I don't have Fernando's email address.'
Alonso and Hamilton will begin the Belgian Grand Prix alongside each other on the second row of the grid after Ferrari drivers Kimi Raikkonen and Felipe Massa annexed the front row in a thrilling climax to yesterday's qualifying session.
Alonso has closed the gap Hamilton holds at the head of the world championship to just three points.
Yet there is a sense that he is operating within his own camp, and rumours persist that Flavio Briatore is preparing to reclaim Alonso for Renault once the dust from this acrimonious season has finally cleared.
Dennis said pointedly: 'We have contracts with both drivers and those contracts are not under discussion. Our objectives are focused on the remaining races. If there is any desire to discuss those contracts they will be addressed at the appropriate time.'
Like when the world championship has been decided.
To darken the mood in the paddock further, McLaren data has allegedly been exported to the Renault team from a former engineer in the employment of Dennis's organisation. Does the sport have the stomach for another scandal?
Last night, Dennis offered a strong hint that he does not propose to appeal against the penalties, saying:' No matter how beaten up I am or kicked around I feel, the fact is I am still passionate about Formula One.'
That's that then.. for now...
McLaren rule out 'spygate' appeal
http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/motorsport/formula_one/7006974.stm
McLaren rule out 'spygate' appeal
http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/motorsport/formula_one/7006974.stm
Was the McLaren spy verdict wrong?
http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/motorsport/formula_one/7006365.stm
An article that looks into it in detail as he goes through the official transcript.. Decent revealing read if your interested but gets focused on certain issues - I'm sure some people will think bias but he still reveals certain facts..
http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/motorsport/formula_one/7006365.stm
An article that looks into it in detail as he goes through the official transcript.. Decent revealing read if your interested but gets focused on certain issues - I'm sure some people will think bias but he still reveals certain facts..