Why is it so hard for us Brits to admit that our own kind cheats and yet we are always the first ones to label foreigners as serial cheats?
F1 - McLaren escape, by a whisker
- Thread starter enghuei
- Start date
I would wait for the new evidence to be made public before making over the board statements.
I love the rush to judge! Ok then folks, all those condemning McClaren before we've even seen the evidence that will be put out in statement today / in full on Monday on the FIA website; who have called for all their points to be scrapped or that the right judgement has been reached; how have McClaren cheated? What's your reasoning? How do you know they've reached the right decision / not gone far enough?
Basically, what have you seen that me and the rest of the world bar the World Motorsports Council and those who attended the meeting have not?
Basically, what have you seen that me and the rest of the world bar the World Motorsports Council and those who attended the meeting have not?
It's the other way around. More people are condemning Ferrari before seeing the new evidence.
Woah there, people are condemning Ferrari for a previous well documented history of having the sport bend around their every whim! People are condemning McClaren on the back of evidence they haven't even seen
I heard someone say on the radio earlier "But look at the size of the punishment, they must be guilty"
I think Britney Spears gives the best refutation of that opinion:
Perhaps all will be settled later on, when we can once again judge, but at least this time with some actual facts at our disposal
I don't care anyway, just hope that it ruins F1, the farce of a sport.
Which of course there is feck all of this evidence to support your views on Ferrari yet your getting at people condemning McLaren in what is my opinion an awful lot more.
Smacks of Hypocrisy
Where are your facts that Ferrari have the FIA wrapped around their little finger?
What the feck are you on about then?
What should we do then? Let the team which has cheated all season win the championship?
Let me remind you all that it was McLaren who just fecking cheated and got penalized. Not Ferrari.
Might I remind people that Ferrari actually drove an illegal car in the first race of the season in Australia. Cheating, wouldn't you say? Yet what have the FIA done about this? Simply told them not to do it again. There is actual hard solid proof they broke the rules, yet in McClarens case, and I only say this until the facts come out later on when we can truely have a better idea, they haven't used the information GIVEN TO THEM by a Ferrari employee on this years (obviously, they didn't get the document until well after this seasons car had been finalised) or next years car. So said the World Motorsport Council before
Does anyone really believe that the fine would be so huge if this was any other team than McClaren?
The whole thing is a farce and I fail to see where the FIA has proved that McClaren used the info Stepney passed on to Coughlan.
And what happened to Stepney? He was known to be unhappy at Ferrari and none of this would have happened if he hadn't stolen sensitive Ferrari material so why isn't he being hauled before the FIA and punished?
It is also bizarre that, having originally decided not to punish McLaren for breaking the rules in July, new evidence was put before the 26 members of the WMSC which showed how e-mails and texts containing Ferrari secrets were passed to Hamilton and Fernando Alonso, as well as engineers and technical staff yet the drivers are not punished??!! Crazy.
There will be some red faces if its a McClaren driver declared Champion next month.
The whole thing is a farce and I fail to see where the FIA has proved that McClaren used the info Stepney passed on to Coughlan.
And what happened to Stepney? He was known to be unhappy at Ferrari and none of this would have happened if he hadn't stolen sensitive Ferrari material so why isn't he being hauled before the FIA and punished?
It is also bizarre that, having originally decided not to punish McLaren for breaking the rules in July, new evidence was put before the 26 members of the WMSC which showed how e-mails and texts containing Ferrari secrets were passed to Hamilton and Fernando Alonso, as well as engineers and technical staff yet the drivers are not punished??!! Crazy.
There will be some red faces if its a McClaren driver declared Champion next month.
And might i remind you that Ferrari exploited a loophole in the rules like every other F1 team...the car was deemed 'legal' because it passed the tests....what actually happened was McLaren complained and had the rule re-clarified hence most of the teams had to change their floors...wanna take a guess at one of the other teams that had to change their floors? yes McLaren themselves.But lets look over that shall we because they're not Ferrari right...how about we overlook BMW aswell for that matter who had a similar floor to ferrai and had to change it aswell because, once again, they're not Ferrari either
Whats so hard to understand about this....the car was deemed legal!
The same as Mass dampners that are now illegal
Michelins tyres which were legal until a rule clarification(just like the Ferrari floor) and had to be change but i didn't see you McLarens fans crying foul there did we?Oh wait thats right, McLaren used Michelins then so you can over look that one right?
Brad, you've no facts whatsoever your just going on your own biased opinion yet your having a go at people for the same thing even though we have a lot more to go on than you.
Show me what you have to go on then please
I can give you all the evidence I need incidently to show Ferrari have been wrapped around the FIA's little finger for years - Michael Schumacher. It's not just me saying this either, we're talking the likes of Eddie Jordan, Jackie Stewart, Damon Hill...
And their all British...surprise surprise
and none of it is FACT which is what you claim they're opinions are.
I am still waiting on evidence before i declare McLaren downright cheats or not.
I retaliated to Mehros post...you know like fight fire with fire.he was giving out about handing Ferrari a title and i replied as opposed to allowing to win a title by cheating.
My point is your being hypocritical having a go at people who call McLaren cheats without any facts when you seem to have no problem doing the exact same yourself.
How about we see what the FIA release without the mud slinging till then
Ah I see, you're going for the British persecution complex line eh? Original
I've only said Ferrari have a history of the rules being bent to allow some of their behaviour. If I could be arsed, I would dig out some specific incidents where we have all the facts (made public) to hand
Here, we don't know the facts, or how the World Council came to their decision. We will later today hopefully, and fully on Monday. Hence why I haven't made any comment about whether McClaren deserve their punishment or not. It'll have to be something extraodinary to account for the size of that fine though, I can't wait to discover what
And even if I am a hypocrite, doesn't change the validity of my observations. Just means I'm as guilty as the rest!
Oh don't try and pull that one...just pointing out a trend in your beacons of honesty and light there and how British tend to favour the British...the same as Italians will allways favour the Italians and Irish would allways favour the Irish etc.
It shouldn 't be a surprise that the large majority of the anti-ferrari brigade are British involved inside and outside of formula 1.That is my opinion from over the years i am not stating that as a fact.
Your last point i agree on....even i've jumped the gun on this matter aswell....its a never ending cycle here "you're cheaters", "no, you're the bloody cheaters" yap yap yap
No one will know until that allegded 166 page slice of evidence is realeased can actually be arsed to read that 166 pages.
It shouldn 't be a surprise that the large majority of the anti-ferrari brigade are British involved inside and outside of formula 1.That is my opinion from over the years i am not stating that as a fact.
Your last point i agree on....even i've jumped the gun on this matter aswell....its a never ending cycle here "you're cheaters", "no, you're the bloody cheaters" yap yap yap
No one will know until that allegded 166 page slice of evidence is realeased can actually be arsed to read that 166 pages.
Breaking News!
McLaren team 'used Ferrari data'
http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/motorsport/formula_one/6994416.stm
McLaren team 'used Ferrari data'
http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/motorsport/formula_one/6994416.stm
McLaren team 'used Ferrari data'
The FIA has revealed that emails between McLaren drivers proved that the British-based team used information leaked from title rivals Ferrari.
McLaren were stripped of their 2007 constructors' points and fined £49.2m after a hearing into "spygate".
The affair began in July when a 780-page dossier of Ferrari data was found at the home of now-suspended McLaren chief designer Mike Coughlan.
He received the data from Ferrari's ex-chief mechanic Nigel Stepney.
In a 15-page document, the FIA said emails showed that test driver Pedro de la Rosa and fellow-Spaniard Fernando Alonso had been aware of the Ferrari data.
"The emails show unequivocally that both Mr Alonso and Mr de la Rosa received confidential Ferrari information via Mike Coughlan.
"Both drivers knew that this information was confidential Ferrari information and that both knew that the information was being received by Coughlan from Nigel Stepney," the report states.
In what is being viewed as the most damning section of the report, the FIA has published an email exchange between De la Rosa and Alonso.
"All the information from Ferrari is very reliable," De la Rosa wrote to Alonso on 25 March in an exchange about the Ferrari's weight distribution.
"It comes from Nigel Stepney, their former chief mechanic - I don't know what post he holds now.
"He's the same person who told us in Australia that Kimi (Raikkonen) was stopping in lap 18. He's very friendly with Mike Coughlan, our chief designer and he told him that."
McLaren has refused to comment on the FIA's revelations, published on the eve of the Belgian Grand Prix in Spa.
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How the feck are the Mclaren drivers still allowed to compete? fecking heats should be kicked out as well. Go onthen you Mclaren supporting cnuts. Defend them.
The FIA has revealed that emails between McLaren drivers proved that the British-based team used information leaked from title rivals Ferrari.
McLaren were stripped of their 2007 constructors' points and fined £49.2m after a hearing into "spygate".
The affair began in July when a 780-page dossier of Ferrari data was found at the home of now-suspended McLaren chief designer Mike Coughlan.
He received the data from Ferrari's ex-chief mechanic Nigel Stepney.
In a 15-page document, the FIA said emails showed that test driver Pedro de la Rosa and fellow-Spaniard Fernando Alonso had been aware of the Ferrari data.
"The emails show unequivocally that both Mr Alonso and Mr de la Rosa received confidential Ferrari information via Mike Coughlan.
"Both drivers knew that this information was confidential Ferrari information and that both knew that the information was being received by Coughlan from Nigel Stepney," the report states.
In what is being viewed as the most damning section of the report, the FIA has published an email exchange between De la Rosa and Alonso.
"All the information from Ferrari is very reliable," De la Rosa wrote to Alonso on 25 March in an exchange about the Ferrari's weight distribution.
"It comes from Nigel Stepney, their former chief mechanic - I don't know what post he holds now.
"He's the same person who told us in Australia that Kimi (Raikkonen) was stopping in lap 18. He's very friendly with Mike Coughlan, our chief designer and he told him that."
McLaren has refused to comment on the FIA's revelations, published on the eve of the Belgian Grand Prix in Spa.
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How the feck are the Mclaren drivers still allowed to compete? fecking heats should be kicked out as well. Go onthen you Mclaren supporting cnuts. Defend them.
Hehe Zidane you beat me to it.
Sounds like Alonso at the very least should be kicked out, since he knew what was going on. Maybe not Hamilton, as he didn't seem to.
Thing is, though, it's a classic case of getting someone to squeal to punish the big guys. It happens in law all the time -- you grant the drug dealer immunity to charges if he becomes a witness against the gang lord.
In this case the FIA promised the drivers that they wouldn't be punished if they came forward with the information that they needed. It was either not have the drivers come forward, so neither they nor the team would be punished, or have them granted immunity so that they get the bigger picture -- punishing the entire team involved.
Thing is, though, it's a classic case of getting someone to squeal to punish the big guys. It happens in law all the time -- you grant the drug dealer immunity to charges if he becomes a witness against the gang lord.
In this case the FIA promised the drivers that they wouldn't be punished if they came forward with the information that they needed. It was either not have the drivers come forward, so neither they nor the team would be punished, or have them granted immunity so that they get the bigger picture -- punishing the entire team involved.
I think people have justification here in calling McLaren cheats to be honest
By the way autosport has it in full aswell if anyone has the time to read....its fairly long
By the way autosport has it in full aswell if anyone has the time to read....its fairly long
Stop deluding yourself mate. Hamilton knew full well what was going on.
The WMSC Decision Document
Well, that does seem pretty damning! McClaren yet to respond, I'll be interested to hear what they have to say. Could it be possible Dennis was this far out of the loop? Have to say, it's still in a ridiculously large fine considering the offence, using information passed on to them by a Ferrari employee. Remember McClaren didn't steal it, they were given it
Well, that does seem pretty damning! McClaren yet to respond, I'll be interested to hear what they have to say. Could it be possible Dennis was this far out of the loop? Have to say, it's still in a ridiculously large fine considering the offence, using information passed on to them by a Ferrari employee. Remember McClaren didn't steal it, they were given it
But by right McLaren should have reported it to the FIA when the recieved it, not hold the information for months and use it.
Its Industrial espionage and very serious.Ferrari being a top team spend 10's of millions even 100's on car development so to have that stolen from them by their own employee and given to McLaren is very damaging.
I don't understand still if Mike Coughlan was such a rogue employee then why is he still employed by McLaren?
Its Industrial espionage and very serious.Ferrari being a top team spend 10's of millions even 100's on car development so to have that stolen from them by their own employee and given to McLaren is very damaging.
I don't understand still if Mike Coughlan was such a rogue employee then why is he still employed by McLaren?
Can someone please explain to me how the Mclaren drivers are still allowed to compete??
I think it was a compromise really....gaurantee immunity to smaller fish in order to catch the bigger fish.
I'm surprised are ok with the drivers still competing because its allmost gauranteed that Hamilton or Alonso will win the drivers championship.I cant see how it won't be a tainted championship though.
If Hamilton had nothing to do with it then i'd feel a bit sorry for him if he won but i doubt we'll ever know that....it doesnt make sense supplying one of the race drivers with info rather than both, it is a team after all.
He's still suspended isn't he?
Presumably not sacked because it would have acknowledged wrong doing before yesterdays judgement
Stemmy said:
Haha come come now, immunity my arse! We all know why the drivers get off, there's a cracking world championship fight under way and they didn't want to mess with that, potentially lucrative to Formula 1. And fair enough, what's the ppint of watching sport if it's deciding in the court room? Would have killed any interest for the rest of the season and probably beyond
Thats true
Well i would have thought sacking him would actually reaffirm that Mike Coughlan was, in fact, a rogue employee.
Afterall He did provide a sworn affidavit confessing his side of the story quite a while ago and McLarens stance is that the Ferrari information was only in the hands of a rogue employee
Yeah i agree the decision was more the WMSC and FIA saving there own hides aswell and providing some sort of justice.
Well i would have thought sacking him would actually reaffirm that Mike Coughlan was, in fact, a rogue employee.
Afterall He did provide a sworn affidavit confessing his side of the story quite a while ago and McLarens stance is that the Ferrari information was only in the hands of a rogue employee
Yeah i agree the decision was more the WMSC and FIA saving there own hides aswell and providing some sort of justice.
Can you imagine what ITV and BBC would say if Ferrari was doing all the cheating.
- McLaren cheated, simple as. This is industrial espionage - here people get thrown in jail for that.Because the co-operated with FIA and told them the truth..
Come on Brad come off it now, no-one gives you industrial information about your rivals for free or without there being some kind of underhand tactics.
Imagine how unfair this is for Massa and Kimi. They will most likely lose to drivers who knowingly cheated all because the FIA like Brad said know that if they kicked out the Mclyin drivers the publicperception of F1 wouldbe in the shitter.
McLaren exposed by spy evidence
Quoted sections from the bbc report
http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/motorsport/formula_one/6995240.stm
I don't even know what to think about this, just imagine if McLaren win the drivers championship people will claim they cheated to victory - even more so if Alonso wins because of the emails - and there was me thinking Ferrari were the more likely to cheat than McLaren...
Shame, it's going to be the centre of attention in what could be a good race at Spa on the weekend.
I wonder what Ron Dennis is going to come out and say this time...
Quoted sections from the bbc report
http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/motorsport/formula_one/6995240.stm
I don't even know what to think about this, just imagine if McLaren win the drivers championship people will claim they cheated to victory - even more so if Alonso wins because of the emails - and there was me thinking Ferrari were the more likely to cheat than McLaren...
Shame, it's going to be the centre of attention in what could be a good race at Spa on the weekend.
I wonder what Ron Dennis is going to come out and say this time...
Supposedly just a disgruntled employee. We're not just talking any old employee here by the way, Nigel Stepney played a key role in Ferrari's renaissance, formerly the chief mechanic.
Is interesting to hear that it wasn't just one document that changed hands, but a constant flow of information for months. I'm shocked at this evidence. For one, how has it only come out since the initial World Council Investigation, who found it and how? I always want to hear what Ron Dennis has to say, I like him he's a passionate racing man, and has been saying he wouldn't resign over this matter, tell you what if this evidence is as it seems, I'm not entirely sure Mercedes will be giving him a choice. We need to here McClarens response now we know the details. Still do insist the penalty is excessive, but then that's evidently because they didn't want to take points off the drivers. It's classic Tevez-gate all over again
Wow, and you had the cheek to have a go at others.
They should have reported to the FIA instead of using the info. And there is no way Ron Dennis was out of the loop, he is lying out of his teeth. He is hardly going to come out and admit that they cheated. They have got no excuse or explanation to give really.
McLaren have cheated plain and simple and got off far too lightly.
Here's a couple of rumours for you...doing the rounds in F1
Alsonso to jump ship at the end of the season for a big money deal to a lesser team and his replacement will be Jensen Button.
An even tastier rumour surrounds who it was that provided the extra evidence that put the nail in McClaren's coffin.....it was Hamiliton Snr, who is still pissed that his boy is #2 to Alonso.
You heard it here first.
Alsonso to jump ship at the end of the season for a big money deal to a lesser team and his replacement will be Jensen Button.
An even tastier rumour surrounds who it was that provided the extra evidence that put the nail in McClaren's coffin.....it was Hamiliton Snr, who is still pissed that his boy is #2 to Alonso.
You heard it here first.