Ferrari's strategists needs to be fired . They've messed up another week again.
F1 2019 season
- Thread starter Santi_Mesut_Alexis_87
- Start date
How can you seriously believe Ferrari are 'in the hunt'?
Its been a Mercedes 1/2 in every race. In three of those tracks Ferrari won last year.
Its going to be a bigger gap this season.
Jesus, poor Leclerc...been the better of the two all season and they feck him over.....however at the end of the day it's his fault. If he doesn't crash out in quali, he probably is in the hunt at the end.
Merc already up by 35 pts, season is over for the rest of the teams, it's a two driver season now...... absolute shite....VSC, joke.
Tbf that usually produces the most dramatic and thrilling seasons.
The Rosberg and Hamilton H2Hs were epic
Hamilton will take the gloves off vs Bottas soon if it’s going to be a two horse race, he would have done any other driver on lap 1 today.
I do actually , if they can get there strategy right.
Its amazing how quickly this sport has fallen off a cliff in terms of popularity and support. F2 provides far better racing and competition, yet this is meant to be the premier sport in car racing? right...
MotoGP is leaving this shit for dead in terms of entertainment and I think pundits are waking up to it. Im not sure what the future is for f1, but it quickly going to turn into a shit show if dramatic changes aren't made. I think if F2 is evidence, they need to dramatically clean the cars up aerodynamically. Massively simplify the aero, bring back refuelling and you might see some entertainment. Nobody want to fecking watch cars circulate for an hour and a half with one pitstop being the only strategic element.
MotoGP is leaving this shit for dead in terms of entertainment and I think pundits are waking up to it. Im not sure what the future is for f1, but it quickly going to turn into a shit show if dramatic changes aren't made. I think if F2 is evidence, they need to dramatically clean the cars up aerodynamically. Massively simplify the aero, bring back refuelling and you might see some entertainment. Nobody want to fecking watch cars circulate for an hour and a half with one pitstop being the only strategic element.
This and get rid of the VSC, it adds nothing to the entertainment value.
In the U.K. it’s not on free television any more. If it’s not back soon they are gonna lost a whole generation of fans. I haven’t watched a race by legal means all season. So whilst I’m a fan, I wouldn’t show up on paper in terms of viewing figures etc
From your past posts I think you’re Australian, so not sure what the situation is like over there.
Free to air used to show most races in Australia, but doesn't seem to be the case anymore. Like you I'm just finding streams of races, but I'd imagine they won't bring in any new fans as it isn't readily available anymore. Or at least not consistently
Not on free to air here either. I have a pay tv for sport subscription, but mostly for other sports and motogp.
F1 has lost its glam. It’s not attractive. Hamilton for however good he is, is not a likeable person and it’s as if he’s trying too hard to create a personality. Schumacher was an enigma in that you either loved him or loathed him so he even when he was dominating, it wasn’t this bad.
I honesty half expect them to push the Mick Schumacher story line because they desperately need to rekindle interest in the sport and it’s probably hoped that seeing the arguable Goat of the sports son race, will raise profile with the old guard. Even I’m watching f2 to see how he goes.
Yes, the sport has lost a lot of its charm. Even when Ferrari dominated it never seemed this comfortable. The cars were a lot more dynamic. I don't think the Ferrari was THAT far off the pace of the Mercs, but you can't race. Cause as soon as you get close, you lose grip and then you can't be in an ideal position to tow down the straight. You have to be a LOT quicker than the car ahead to overtake in modern F1.
I still watch almost every race because its a part of my childhood. I don't have time to invest in a new sport now. Though I've flirted with the idea of watching Moto GP instead. I'm hoping the 2020 rule changes will bring back something to the sport and I agree with everyone who thinks refuelling needs to be brought back in F1.
I still watch almost every race because its a part of my childhood. I don't have time to invest in a new sport now. Though I've flirted with the idea of watching Moto GP instead. I'm hoping the 2020 rule changes will bring back something to the sport and I agree with everyone who thinks refuelling needs to be brought back in F1.
How many points are left to win?
Get rid of the pinnacle of Motorsport engineering element to F1 and you no longer have the unique selling point of being the elite of Motorsport. You're just another generic formula category.
The reason I can sit and watch these cars follow each other for lap upon lap is that I know I'm watching amazing cars that you just see cannot see anywhere else. YMMV of course.
I think it helps massively that on the grid this year you have some real bright prospects and potential stars. Leclerc obviously, Lando Norris just 2 of them, added to the intrigue of was watching Max fulfil his destiny, for RB to provide him with a car his talent deserves etc etc
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Motogp is the pinnacle of Motorcycles and like F1, is a prototype series and unlike f1, even the richest punters struggle to get access to the bikes in GP form, because the learning curve on a motorbike in terms of danger is so high, they're reluctant to sell them.
The difference is that its properly managed unlike f1. Its not about getting rid engineering, its about ensuring that the cars have the capacity to race in close proximity.
I don't get this notion that refueling brings back excitement, it made cars lap times somewhat quicker but didn't improve or increase overtaking.
25 years this week since we lost Ayrton Senna. Man, I feel old.
Crikey. Feels like just a few years ago.
Have the capacity at say 30% race distance and make refueling a little slow. I think it would spice things up nicely and also allow more tyre changes so they can go all out. Difficult to manage strategy with so many stops.
The biggest difference it would make is that it adds strategy options which would create situations we don't have now, like starting the race with 1/3 of a tank of gas vs a full tank makes a big difference in both lap times and tire wear so it would improve the chances for overtaking. But refueling alone wouldn't be enough, they have to change more things to give the drivers more opportunities to pass on track imo.
That wouldn't really encourage overtaking though, it would simply introduce more lifting & coasting to get more out of the stint. Track position will be key in that scenario you would be giving.
You're a little optimistic. The teams will still have the same simulations and calculations giving them the quickest time to the finish line, so we're not going to see opposite ends of the spectrum in terms of strategy.
When refuelling was still in the rules, F1 was still seeing a low amount of overtakes. Most of which were being done in the pitlane, not on track. Refuelling isn't the answer here.
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I don’t think every team would have the exact same strategy for every race, for example Ferrari starting the race in P3&P6 wouldn’t want to have the same strategy as Merc in P1&P2. Have teams start the race on whatever tire they want as well.
The question is why wouldn’t we want to add more variables? The biggest problem the sport has atm is that there’s not enough happening during the races and you’ve got drivers coasting to save tires and fuel etc which isnt exactly exciting either, refueling would help with both those problems. I’m not saying it would solve the problems completely, but it would definitely help.
The programs which pull out the simulations of the race will still pull together very similar strategies, but also given that given the scenario above that there is a mandatory pitstop for a change in tyre compound, and that refuelling would be available, no car would ever start the grid on a full tank. The actual difference in strategies would be negligible as they would be separated by about 3-5 laps of fuel roughly at anyone time. That time difference on the track is a handful of seconds, not enough to dramatically change the race.
Refueling wouldn't help the problems. The problem is down to the complexities of the aerodynamics of the cars - they made a step this year with the front wings and the goals for 2021 is to strip it back further.
http://cliptheapex.com/overtaking/ - Good link to show the amount of overtaking when we had refueling. Overtakes or 'excitement' as you're referring increases with DRS, which adds more weight to aerodynamics having more of an impact than refueling.
F2 has the best racing action and that is down to simple aerodynamics on the car, albeit a standardised format for all, but no requirements of refueling to keep it entertaining.
If a full tank of gas would last you 60-70% of the race then I don't see why some wouldn't start on a full tank. It would also make the simulations become less predictable as you can't calculate the traffic for example when you have no idea what tires or how many stops the rest are planning for. On a track with historically a lot of safety cars you could have teams gambling a bit as well, and I think just to have that uncertainty would make things better.
Today you know that if the cars next to you start the race on the same tires as you they will have a very similar pre-race strategy because they're pretty much forced to. If the car in P2 who's 3sec behind goes in to change tires you will always see P1 come in the next lap to change to the same tires to secure his position, which is about as predictable and boring as it gets. I also don't see the excitement in hearing Vettel and Hamilton crying over the radio that their teammate who is infront of them is allowed to pit first because when everyone is on the exact same strategy staying out one additional lap when your main rival has done their pitstop could ruin your race.
Adding one more element which will help change the pace and the standings on track, even if it's over- and undercuts, does help with the excitement at least for me. I'd much rather have that + changes to the aero rather than only changes to the aero as the two aren't mutually exclusive.
I agree that there's a lot better racing in F2 (due to rules that will most likely never be implemented in F1) but perhaps it would be even better with refueling?
And I still get a lump in my throat when I think of that bloody awful day watching the events play out on live TV.
But the best bits to watch are when two or more drivers are actually racing eachother on the track.
25 years today
I'm still not over it
I'm still not over it
Awful yes - but I have to say F1 seems to be one of the few sports where the organization actually gives a shit about safety and looks beyond the dollars and negative press after bad things happen .. Unlike say a NFL. I could be persuaded that's not true though.
I have to agree with you. I don’t think though that the current safety improvement has anything to do with the organisation.
It has everything to do with modern technology and in particular carbon fibre material strength. We see horrific crashes and in the main the driver sustains very little damage.
25 year , WOW I remember it like it was yesterday RIP Senna and Roland Ratzenberger.
Senna. The reason i love this motorsports.
Uncertainty will still produce the same results, the simulations will broadly pull out the same strategy. Eg. the quickest way to complete X amount of laps. It won't come up with some crazy differing calculations, as the base model data is all the same - the track. The tyres all have the same three compounds, so the net effect wouldn't change the results. Fuel will be calculated based on the quickest way to complete the laps - eg. time penalty of a pitstop vs laps out on track.
https://www.racefans.net/2015/05/29/refuelling-return-may-not-change-strategy-much/ - The then Lotus technical director.
https://drivetribe.com/p/f1-teams-s...P84nQa-OvvhGjv0Xqw?iid=FfuLj0rtTq-HOzq3EM6D7Q
You'll get even more boring racing with refueling added in, just read the link in the previous post i shared - lowest overtakes in a season is when refueling was active in F1. Go figure.
Overcuts and undercuts don't help with the excitement though - by definition they're simply overtakes in pitstops. Exciting racing = overtakes on track for position. Which to achieve that, is all down to aerodynamics as the cars can follow closer.
I agree that there's a lot better racing in F2 (due to rules that will most likely never be implemented in F1) but perhaps it would be even better with refueling?
The secret to F2's great racing is the relatively simple aero which allows the cars to race closely at high speeds. The overall point is that refueling doesn't add entertainment, it just adds overtakes in pitstops as you get more overcuts. Serious, just google refueling for the F1 views, the majority of most team principles and ex technical directors don't believe it's the way forward. I mean think about it, if it was such an appeal it would have been brought back sooner - it was kicked back a few years ago. The only way to make the sport more exciting is to focus on aerodynamics only as the cars will be able to drive closer.
If a full tank of gas would last you 60-70% of the race then I don't see why some wouldn't start on a full tank. It would also make the simulations become less predictable as you can't calculate the traffic for example when you have no idea what tires or how many stops the rest are planning for. On a track with historically a lot of safety cars you could have teams gambling a bit as well, and I think just to have that uncertainty would make things better.
Today you know that if the cars next to you start the race on the same tires as you they will have a very similar pre-race strategy because they're pretty much forced to. If the car in P2 who's 3sec behind goes in to change tires you will always see P1 come in the next lap to change to the same tires to secure his position, which is about as predictable and boring as it gets. I also don't see the excitement in hearing Vettel and Hamilton crying over the radio that their teammate who is infront of them is allowed to pit first because when everyone is on the exact same strategy staying out one additional lap when your main rival has done their pitstop could ruin your race.
Adding one more element which will help change the pace and the standings on track, even if it's over- and undercuts, does help with the excitement at least for me. I'd much rather have that + changes to the aero rather than only changes to the aero as the two aren't mutually exclusive.
I agree that there's a lot better racing in F2 (due to rules that will most likely never be implemented in F1) but perhaps it would be even better with refueling?
With the old rules, I believe you had to qualify with the fuel you would be carrying into the race. So it wouldn't be viable.
But even then, I think people forget how identical the tactics were back then. It wasn't much more exciting than it is now.
Was refueling one of the causes of the low overtaking numbers though? It's fine to say that the record low number of overtakes happened during the refueling era but you still need to connect the two and show that it was because of refueling it happened. I know I'm playing devil's advocate here and maybe I just want changes for the sake of changes, but something needs to be done and imho saving fuel and tires shouldn't be such a big part of F1 like it is today, save that crap for Formula E or some other eco series.
Hopefully the 2021 changes will be substantial enough to revive things, but even if refueling doesn't change the strategies all that much it would still give teams more options if they botch the qualifying or something unexpected happens during a race, and I don't see why that isn't a positive.
If the options are more over/undercuts compared to less over/undercuts I can't see how the former isn't more exciting. Surely the alternative that makes more drivers challenge the car infront is the more exciting option. Waiting to see if the car coming out of the pits comes out ahead of the one storming down the main straight is exciting to me, and I'm sure many others as well. You make it sound like overtaking on the track is the only thing that brings excitement to a race, and I think that's a little short sighted. I guess we will have to agree to disagree that aero alone should be the only solution to boring racing.
That's exactly it though, they don't have to use the the old rules and regulations. I'm sure I'm looking back at how it was with rose tinted glasses, but no matter how things were before I think we can all agree that they way it is right now isn't working very well.
Making the cars more difficult to drive but not too dangerous? Rewarding those who can tame a monster car. Probably would result in a lot more accidents though. Get the feeling there's too much driver assist.
Rain has enabled Max and Lewis too separate themselves on more than a few occasions these last years. Downforce ability if these cars maybe makes it too easy..? Dunno.
Rain has enabled Max and Lewis too separate themselves on more than a few occasions these last years. Downforce ability if these cars maybe makes it too easy..? Dunno.
I agree. Passing needs to be addressed. But mixing it up should help. I suspect we'd see slightly slower cars being able to pass faster cars because they are lighter on fuel and then the faster cars would actually have to pass to regain leads. Tyres similar idea. Right now we see winners only lap slow cars.
Low overtakes was due to the fact most of the changing of positions happened in the pitlane, not on track.
Because it's a little man made. Simplify the aero and then we're getting close to driver ability influencing the result more.
Position changes as a result to pitstops is boring racing. Wheel to wheel overtaking for position is where it needs to get to and broadly fans would agree that is the definition is of exciting racing.
I really hoped Ferrari would find more pace from their upgrades than they have so far today.