Even with Pogba, are there enough goals in squad to challenge for the league?

I'm more concered about our wide areas. We need that pacy dribbler. And it's a huge drop in quality going from Martial and Micky to the others.
 
I'm more concered about our wide areas. We need that pacy dribbler. And it's a huge drop in quality going from Martial and Micky to the others.

You have fullbacks remember.

Valencia at RB can put in crosses, same for Shaw.

Players like Mhkitaryan can occupy a narrow position whilst there's the overlap making it more difficult for the opposing fullback, same goes for Martial (who can beat a player).

You are forgetting Mourinho is manager, it's not going to be as Rigid as under LVG -- Yes! players can Overlap and change positions! :eek:

(not meant as patronising, more as a it'll be a different kind of football).
 
I think we do.

That said, usually you need a great attack or defense to win the league(or a player spearheading your efforts like RVP in 2012-2013). I mean Chelsea in 04-05 won the league with only 72 goals. Relatively small amount of goals for a title winning side. Of course they only conceded 15.

We in 2008-2009 won with only 68 goals, but we conceded 24 and had that amazing run of games with zero goals conceded.
 
That's what my concern is. I don't think Jose will, or he won't until it's too late for us to win the league. If Rooney is still playing week in, week out by November, I think we can kiss goodbye to the league.

This.
Agree 100% with you, although I do hope we are proven wrong. Mou has already made very clear he is sticking Rooney in there, so we need to support the team as he sets it up. To be fair, Rooney this year so far looks much better than he was looking at the beginning of last year. Let's hope his form improves.
 
I think we do.

That said, usually you need a great attack or defense to win the league(or a player spearheading your efforts like RVP in 2012-2013). I mean Chelsea in 04-05 won the league with only 72 goals. Relatively small amount of goals for a title winning side. Of course they only conceded 15.

We in 2008-2009 won with only 68 goals, but we conceded 24 and had that amazing run of games with zero goals conceded.
We won't defend as well as either of those teams, so it's on us to score more. I don't know if we can do it, but the pressure is also on every other team that fancies themselves for the title. This is going to be one of the most competitive league seasons ever, and I really think that every "big" team is going to concede quite a lot. If we can get our attack going and get a few of our best players in form then we have a shot
 
My concern is the number of chances we create.
The draw against Everton wasn't inspiring, I know pre-season blah blah, but the inability to break down teams who defend in numbers is scary....
Hopefully the team clicks and creates chances galore!!!

Im pretty sure the team from the first half would have scored eventually in a normal game.
 
It would be funny if we spend tons of money but we still have same problem as last season, not being able to score much.

Though I think it is too early to say plus making the defense solid first might let the forward players loose up a bit more to take more risks. We seem to try to play with a higher tempo in passing which is always good to see.
 
Theoretically, we do. We have Martial, Ibrahimovic, Rooney and Mkhitaryan as our forwards and on paper that's enough goals already. On the ground (from what I saw in the Everton game) we don't. It could've been match sharpness but I think it's because we don't have enough assists in the team. We currently lack players with that creative spark to help out the goal scorers. Either way, signing Pogba is a step in the right direction and he'll be a great add to the team. He is 5 assists and 8 goals already ;)
 
I'll never get that argument about enough or not enough 'goals in our squad'.
Football is not math and even if it were, it's not just an addition of individuals.

If our team plays fluid and directly, dominating in attack, goals will come from everywhere. Is Memphis a 5 goal or a 12 goal winger? Mkhitaryan can score 3 or 15, how would we know? Well, totally depends on our teamplay. Same for pretty much everyone. Zlatan has kind of a goal guarantee as had Rooney back then, but you can't just add goalscorers and expect them to each score a ton.

RVP-Falcao
Rooney
was your typical 'lots of goals in that attack' type of formation but oh boy....
 
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I can see Martial, Rashford and Lingard upping their output, the biggest issue in the squad is neither of the #10's are ideal, we could use a Griezmann to play off Ibra.
Mkhi can definitely play that role. He won't score as many as Greizmann but he'll have more assists and a decent goal return. A front three of Martial, Zlatan and Rashford supported by Mkhi and Pogba will get us 70+ goals guaranteed. Having just Carrick or Schneiderlin as a defensive midfielder can result in us conceding a few goals but we should believe that we can outscore our opponents with our quality upfront.
 
We need another winger or a very good attack minded right back.
I like the balance of Martial and Mkhi on the wings, especially someone as dynamic as Pogba is occupying the CAM spot. My issue is that due to Memphis's underwhelming season and the footballing limitations of young and lingard, we don't have a good back-up or option from the bench for the wings.
Assuming we wont sell rooney, we need to replace fellaini and mata with a Winger(a la the Nani signing in 2007)
 
Mkhi can definitely play that role. He won't score as many as Greizmann but he'll have more assists and a decent goal return. A front three of Martial, Zlatan and Rashford supported by Mkhi and Pogba will get us 70+ goals guaranteed. Having just Carrick or Schneiderlin as a defensive midfielder can result in us conceding a few goals but we should believe that we can outscore our opponents with our quality upfront.
I agree with with the idea that Ibra Martial and Rashford will get us goals. But I want Rashford to be developed as a striker a proper number 9.
Sure Rashford can come on a in a few games and occupy that wing spot to add pace and width, but I don't want that to be his main role this season.
 
I'll never get that argument about enough or not enough 'goals in our squad'.
Fottball is not math and even if it were, it's not just an addition of individuals.

If our team plays fluid and direct, dominating in attack, goals will come from everywhere. Is Memphis a 5 goal or a 12 goal winger? Mkhitaryan can score 3 or 15, how would we know? Well, totally depends on our team. Same for pretty much everyone. Zlatan has kind of a goal guarantee as had Rooney back then, but you can't just add goalscorers and expect them to each score a ton.

RVP-Falcao
Rooney
was your typical 'lots of goals in that attack' type of formation but oh boy....
Agree. Just having goal scorers in the line up is not enough. You need creative players behind them to supply them with enough scoring chances. Ronaldo would not have scored 50+ goals each season if he was not assisted by players like Ozil, Di Maria, Bale, Modric, etc. Mkhi and Pogba can be the creative outlets in our team. We should play Mkhi as No.10 instead of Rooney and play Rashford on the wing. This way, we'll have a good balance of goal scorers and creative players to break down any team.
 
I agree with with the idea that Ibra Martial and Rashford will get us goals. But I want Rashford to be developed as a striker a proper number 9.
Sure Rashford can come on a in a few games and occupy that wing spot to add pace and width, but I don't want that to be his main role this season.
Yes, Rashford's future is definitely as a CF. But at his age, playing for sometime on the wing shouldn't affect his development too much. With Zlatan dropping deep often, he'll have plenty of chances to get into good scoring positions. I would be worried only if he is forced to stick to the wing. If the front 3 are afforded the freedom by the manager to drift freely, then he'll be the perfect player to have on the wing. Anyway, Zlatan at his age won't be starting all games, so he'll still get plenty of games as a CF.
 
Rooney (as much as I detest him) - 10 goals a season I think he can still pull off minimum
Zlatan - 15 -25 goals this season
Rash - 10-15 goals this season
Martial (second season syndrome?) - 10-15 goals this season
Mkhitaryan (off the bench/number 10/starter RW?) - 5-10 goals this season
Mata 8-10 goals a season
Pogba - 10 goals a season
Lingard - 5-10 goals a season
Fellaini - 5-10 goals a season

Rest of squad - 10 goals a season

I think we definitely have more goals in this current side regardless of how bad we are, even at our worst I feel we have more goals in this current side and we still haven't finished signing players yet. If Zlatan can nail it, Rashford has a huge upsurge and really makes it.. and Martial improves his goalscoring, then we could be hitting a good amount. Pogo will definitely score goals, he has an upwards trajectory in terms of match winning contributions.
 
Whether we have enough goals to challenge for the league would depend on the performance of our defence .

I can see us setting up bit expansively with greater freedom provided to our midfielder 's which would put greater pressure on our defence unlike Lvg 's system where sole purpose of midfield was to protect our defence minimising the actual defending part. If we start well and our defence copes well with new system I can see our attack grow and progress with enough goals to challenge for the title .
 
I personally think that for the first time in years, with the addition of some of our summer signings and younger players coming through at the right time, we have more potential goals in this squad right now than we have had for a long time (i'd go as far back as to when Ronaldo was around).

My worry is creating the chances more than anything else.
 
I don't get where this worry about chance creation is coming from by so many who have said it in this thread. The only duds we have in this department in the team are Valencia and his dire crossing; Rooney and his unwillingness to try the probing passes over the easy and safe 'out wide option' and our two CB's, assuming Blind doesn't start.

Shaw and Martial will offer opportunities via their running/dribbling into lay offs or driven balls across the box.
Carrick, whilst not a direct assist-maker, often breaks defensive lines with his quick passes forward
Pogba will put balls on a plate for any willing runners.
Mkhitaryan is a much better chance creator than goal-scorer
Zlatan is known for his lay offs for onrushing attackers, which should provide numerous opportunities for Martial in particular to latch on to.

We have more creativity than we do clinical goal-converting players, I would say. And we'll have the best overload of the left flank seen in years, which will ask more of the finishing of Mkhi, Zlatan and Rooney than those providing the chances for them.

Without movement through the middle, we're asking for a hell of a lot from the flanks. Martial, Shaw, Mkhitaryan and whoever is at RB will have a hell of a lot of work to do in this team with Rooney and Zlatan running (or not, as most likely to be the case) through the middle.
 
Im pretty sure the team from the first half would have scored eventually in a normal game.
THIS !!!

People seem to be ignoring that this was treated as a pre season warm up which led to many changes at half time. All you need to look at is the first half where we had Everton pinned back and would most likely have scored with that same team. However this was a pre season and everyone needed game time thus changes occurred and that first half team with its tempo went out.

If anything the friendly against Everton shows that we are capable of pressurizing a team until they eventually crack. Everton were very well organised in that first half but there was this sense we were about to have a break through with a bit more time. I'm sure we would have scored in the second half with the first half team w/o many changes which disrupted our threat.
 
Even if we sign the Pogs I doubt that we've got what it take to win the EPL.

A- Pogba is a no 10. That's his best role and we've already got Rooney and Mata there
B- We lack pace on the flanks. Martial can provide that on the left but Mkhitaryan doesn't strike me as a pacey winger
C- We will be relying heavily on Ibra's brilliance to paper the cracks. At 34 that's too much to ask from him
D- We lack quality in terms of strength in depth. If the likes of Martial and Mkhitaryan get injured we will revert to the usual Lingard and Young.
E- We've got too many square pegs in round holes. Mata is useless in the EPL. Fellaini is neither good enough in CM or as no 10. We've yet to find a role were Herrera can do well etc
F- We've got too many shit players who simply will see out their contract. Bastian, Jones, Young, Rojo, Fellaini etc
 
Mkhi can definitely play that role. He won't score as many as Greizmann but he'll have more assists and a decent goal return. A front three of Martial, Zlatan and Rashford supported by Mkhi and Pogba will get us 70+ goals guaranteed. Having just Carrick or Schneiderlin as a defensive midfielder can result in us conceding a few goals but we should believe that we can outscore our opponents with our quality upfront.

Even being optimistic I would say 60 goals would be an achievement for that front 5 and I honestly don't see Rashford playing as a starter this season. I also think we need to see how Micki settles as it's taken him time previously and Pogba will be playing deeper than he played for Juve.
 
Zlatan scored them than our entire squad did last term.

Yes we have more than enough to score. Mkhitaryan is a beast, Tony managed 11 goals under LVG so if anythign that should double under Jose.
Rooney will give us 8-10. i expect the full backs to have a couple of cheeky ones between them.

All in all, we should be good.
 
Even being optimistic I would say 60 goals would be an achievement for that front 5 and I honestly don't see Rashford playing as a starter this season. I also think we need to see how Micki settles as it's taken him time previously and Pogba will be playing deeper than he played for Juve.
The 70 goal mark is for the whole team not just the front five. But yes it does depend on how fast Pogba and Mkhi adapt. Rashford will most likely play as a backup to Zlatan but this formation could be tried out in a few games to see how it works.
 
For the attack, my worry would be Rooney. He's not really good as outright #10. He is more of second forward. Then Rooney is very indisciplined in his style that he may step into Zlatan's foot. Rooney is not shite but just a bad fit nowadays. Other than that, IMO we can do well without Rooney with our personnels up front.

I am more worry about the defense. We ditch LVG possession based defense method so we need to defend properly. the DM role after these years, now has become our weakness. Carrick is on the decline. Schneiderlin is not suited for holding role. He wants to roam/ hunting for action. Herrera and Fellaini don't give me confidence as holding midfielders. Bastian had terrible season and likely on the way out.

We lack a leader in the heart of defense. Bailly is young and new to the league. Smalling simply does well on his own but can't lead others. Then not too convinced with Valencia as our starting RB (as back up would be very good option). Then Shaw's form (it's early days since his return so it's hard to judge whether he has completely overcome leg break mentally.) the annual injury curse. Smalling is the current victim. The rotational option is suspect and unreliable: Jones (crock), Rojo (pointless), Blind (lack physicality and not a natural CB)
 
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For the attack, my worry would be Rooney. He's not really good as outright #10. He is more of second forward. Then Rooney is very indisciplined in his style that he may step into Zlatan's foot. Other than that, IMO we can do well without Rooney with our personnels up front.

I am more worry about the defense. We ditch LVG possession based defense method so we need to defend properly. the DM role after these years, now has become our weakness. Carrick is on the decline. Schneiderlin is not suited for holding role. He wants to roam/ hunting for action. Herrera and Fellaini don't give me confidence as holding midfielders. Bastian had terrible season and likely on the way out.

We lack a leader in the heart of defense. Bailly is young and new to the league. Smalling simply does well on his own but can lead others. Then not too convinced with Valencia as our starting RB (as back up would be very good option). Then the annual injury curse. Smalling is the current victim. The rotational option is suspect and unreliable: Jones (crock), Rojo (pointless), Blind (lack physicality and not a natural CB)

I think our bench could be a huge factor in where we go, rashford could be a huge impact off the subs bench sometimes, but rooney for me will be a problem when he lacks the technical ability, he is slow, and goals tally is not where it was. Jose needs to go to the 433 system to get the best out of pogba, it should be herrera playing next to pogba, not rooney
 
The 70 goal mark is for the whole team not just the front five. But yes it does depend on how fast Pogba and Mkhi adapt. Rashford will most likely play as a backup to Zlatan but this formation could be tried out in a few games to see how it works.

Don't get me wrong, I think we are building towards an excellent team, I just feel we will end up a couple of pieces short of a title win.
 
Don't get me wrong, I think we are building towards an excellent team, I just feel we will end up a couple of pieces short of a title win.
Of course, I am in no way suggesting that we are favourites to the title. We are still a work in progress. But as far as I can tell, none of the other teams are clear favourites either. Pretty hard to guess how this season will turn out for us as well as our rivals.
 
I think we've got enough goals in us even without Pogba. Obviously I'm not basing that optimism on the last couple of seasons, but with Mourinho in charge, Zlatan on board and Rooney restored to a striking role. Then add Rashford, Martial and Lingard all looking to explode this season, I really do think we're about to lift off. Shaw and Jones returning to fitness, Smalling and Darmian's continuing improvement and Bailey now in the mix, the defence is looking solid, all in front of one of the worlds best keepers

So we DO need Pogba, or at least more energy as midfield is the worry. Schneiderlein should get better, but Schweinsteiger and Fellaini arent the answer clearly. I'd like to see TFM get more minutes. We have plenty of wide options now, assuming Depay stays (and starts to perform)

All in all we really could be set to explode this season.

Some will say we could just as easily implode without that midfield 'cog', but I'm really upbeat, bring it on!
 
Even if Ibra/Rooney/Martial/Rashford score 50 goals between them (not an unreasonable target) I would still hope that the midfield/defence will chip in with at least 15-20 goals. The problem will be creating enough chances.

(And keeping them out at the other end which I think will be the bigger issue.)
 
It's more a stylistic issue I think then whether we have the right calibre of players in our squad in terms of goalscoring.

Like the OP's stated, numerically it wasn't an issue going off of each player last season. If they replicate last seasons performances this year then we'll score goals galore. The likelihood is that won't happen though. Zlatan is joining an inferior team to the one he left in a superior league, while Miki will be our main creator-in-chief opposed to a goal-scorer and he has to adapt to the league.

I think our main issue however, is adapting to new tactics, with an injection of pace and intensity which going by the Everton game, may take a little while to incorporate into our game. We have pace in wide areas and Rashford injects a lot of directness and unpredictability off the bench, but centrally we could struggle with Zlatan and Rooney.

That's where we are really deprived of pace and could become very laboured in our approach play. I think what it might take is benching Rooney and we'll start to see a more swashbuckling United that score goals as regularly as anyone else.

Anyway, just a prediction for league goals this season:

Zlatan - 22
Rashford - 13
Martial - 10
Rooney - 7
Mhikitaryan - 6
Pogba - 4
Lingard - 2
Smalling - 2

Then maybe four or five other players getting one league goal plus a few OG's. I think we'll breach the 70 goal mark. About 74 I reckon.
 
I personally think that we will be able to score goals. Stopping them at the other end could be the problem. Another CB would be ideal (can see TFM there but could be a bit early for him) plus maybe a RB
 
I agree with with the idea that Ibra Martial and Rashford will get us goals. But I want Rashford to be developed as a striker a proper number 9.
Sure Rashford can come on a in a few games and occupy that wing spot to add pace and width, but I don't want that to be his main role this season.
I can't help wondering that a right sided forward position could me Rashfords best position. Still too early to tell. If Micky makes that position his own then Marcus will be schooled by Zlatan on the art of being a centre forward. If Micky struggles to adapt then Marcus could be used and whilst I think he'll make a great number nine, he's so good that he'll adapt and make that wide position his own. He's the guy I'm most excited about this season.

As for Pogba, I think he'll get double figures and the team will double las years sorry total.
 
I'd argue the following for league only:

Zlatan 15-22 (18.5)
Rooney 10-16 (13)
Martial 8-15 (11.5)
Rashford 8-15 (11.5)
Mkhitaryan 5-8(6.5)
Mata 3-7 (5)
Pogba 3-7 (5)
Lingard 2-5 (3.5)
Depay 1-3 (2)
Herrera 1-3 (2)
Fellaini 1-3 (2)
Valencia 0-2 (1)
Shaw 0-1 (0.5)
Carrick 0-1 (0.5)
Schneiderlin 0-1 (0.5)
Smalling 0-1 (0.5)
Blind 0
Bailly 0
Young 0
Jones 0
Darmian 0
Rojo 0
De Gea 0

Minimum Potential Goal Return: 57

Maximum Potential Goal Return: 110

Median Potential Goal Return: 83.5

5 Season League Goals AVG: 70

Average Expected Goal Return: 76.75
(Med Pot + 5slg)/2

+/- 5% Variance

Min Expected Goal Return: 72.9125
((83.5+ (70)/2)*0.95


Max Expected Goal Return: 80.5875
((83.5+ (70)/2)*1.05

(5 year AVG = (89+86+64+62+49)/5) =70

Final Expected Goal Return: 77 goals (+/-4 goals)

Justification:

I fully expect people to swoop in "that's pointless why bother" but I genuinely believe that looking at the trends in the PL, the players and United that 72-81 is a reasonable estimation.

Now obviously the above is only an estimate however I am very confident in it as a prediction as it takes into account the profile of each player, their general goalscoring ability and a likely min and max for each. I have also tried to factor in error of judgement (by including basic 5% error to totals) which is high enough to matter but low enough to make this a purposeful prediction. Allowing too much wiggle room for myself would not be in the spirit of things.

I would particularly endorse the min expected goal return as I am always a pessimist when it comes to predictions.

Edit: I forgot to say that yes, based on what I predict it is entirely possible for us to produce a league winning amount of goals.

If there was demand I would do the same for other PL clubs to show where we might stand.

Very accurate predictions and nice calculated with the variances! Anyways, Would be nice to see Mourinho's last many seasons in the Premier League counted into the equation. He's known to produce few goals. Maybe take these seasons into account? (He's actually never tallied over 73 goals!)

Chelsea under Mourinho:
04/05: Champions
72 - 15
05/06: Champions
72 - 22
06/07: Runner up
64 - 24

13/14: Third
71 - 27
14/15: Champions
73 - 32

Worth noting that the runners up in lot of those years sometimes scored way more goals.
 
I have no worries at all regarding goals this season. I reckon the team as a whole is good enough to get 60+ goals in league with 35+ of them would come from Martial, Ibrahimovic and Rooney. Mikhi will slot in some goals but most of his input would be from assist.

Those who are worried about Rooney is understandable, but apart from goals he will assist a lot as well. Even with all criticism that he pass sideways, we can see in the recent match that most goal chances we got in CS were from his passes.
 
I'm really having a hard time seeing the uptick in goals that's being talked about. We all complained about the 4231 that LVG used last season, which was tumescent, and it looks like Mourinho will be lining us up the same way. The difference seems to be that one of the two holding MF (looks to be Herrera) will play a freer role than the other but I am not convinced that this setup, with the players we currently have, will make any kind of improvement to playing with pace and making it easier for our attackers to get behind the opposition. Our best ball-playing MF still appears to be Carrick and he is due for retirement.

I think Ibra will be a good signing for his experience but he is really the complete opposite of what I would've had as a striker, I would rather have taken a player in Vardy's mold who can work the line of defence and create openings on the counterattack. I just don't see Ibra scoring anywhere near 25-30 goals in this league with this setup. Like other people have been saying, our best formation looks to be 433, with Martial and Miki/Rashford as the wide players and Ibra central, which would take some of the pressure off Ibra to find position in front of goal.

We will also not be with the glut of possession like last season so our defenders will have to defend a lot more. Is our defensive squad good enough to do this? I think this might be the deciding factor of the season. I would really have felt more comfortable if we signed another CB/FB (while also keeping CBJ on the squad) and cleared out Jones and Rojo.
 
The difference will be, as has already been evident in our pre-season games, that we'll be more quick and direct in getting the ball into our front players...whether it's through them running in behind or getting the ball into feet. It'll take a while to click but I don't think we lack the quality or numbers.

The last two games, our players pick up the ball, and look for a forward. There's no faffing about. It hasn't really worked or come together but keep in mind it's been a mess of a pre-season in general.

I think our problem areas will be defence and midfield (less so if we sign someone but even then still a bit). We have only one good fullback who is coming back from a broken ankle, and are still well short of reliable cover all the way across the back line.

Under LVG there were two things. Firstly, the style of play was awful and too slow...he said himself it was too slow again and again but he never did anything to address it. Secondly, we never had any balance when going forwards. He left himself a mess of a squad the first year then the second kept faffing around with what he did have and putting people in roles they weren't suited to. At the moment we have a pretty decent balance. We have people who can turn and beat defenders, people who can play on the shoulder of defenders, people who can hold up the ball against the centrebacks, people who can play from deep...it''s all there it's just whether it's used properly and whether the players can produce.
 
I don't think we've added enough creativity to score that many more goals.