This must be what the Leave people say is the 'politics of fear'. I'm not sure why the IMF should want to make this fearful stuff up, but I'm sure someone from Leave will have an explanation.
EU Referendum | UK residents vote today.
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This must be what the Leave people say is the 'politics of fear'. I'm not sure why the IMF should want to make this fearful stuff up, but I'm sure someone from Leave will have an explanation.
His defence of the EU has been incredibly weak. Due to the fact he leads a party who largely want to leave, he's trying to toe the line and has come across as a bit pointless in doing so. He embraces being within the EU...but doesn't want to be a part of most aspects of it, whether that be the free movement of people, the Euro, the ever-closer union, and various other aspects.
In fact, I kind of feel like that's the UK's problem in the EU as a whole. We only really want to be half in it, with the benefits we like, but trying to not involve ourselves in all the integral aspects to it that we're not so keen on.
I've used to hob to good effect with many a Tory leaflet over the years.
It was inevitable that they would come out with this sort of thing because to an extent it's true. If we do vote to leave though it's up to us and the rest of Europe to minimise any disruption in trading relationships. Perhaps we should all make an effort to do just that.
Originally we actually voted just to join a common trading market. We did NOT vote to be governed by Brussels. That's the issue.
True. I'll probably vote to stay for the moment because the Leave campaign argument to leave has been close to non-existent, but long-term I struggle to see how we're going to be compatible with the EU as a nation unless we suddenly want to be a part of greater integration.
I think one key problem with selling the EU to the British public is that governments of whatever party have ill-equipped Britons to take advantage of the stuff we've signed up for. As soon as we opted in to freedom of movement there should have been a huge push in education to encourage kids to learn languages and (eventually) broaden their horizons by working abroad. As it is, relatively few of us are competent enough in any foreign language to get through a holiday without relying on English-speaking staff, never mind seek employment somewhere else in the union.
I'm pro-EU (in the sense that it's the best of two bad options), but the above seems to me like a combination of well-meaning politicians being incompetent and dodgy ones with ties to business rubbing their hands together over the prospect of free-movement creating competition for jobs and forcing down wages.
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I'm beginning to think that there a quite a few countries who, like us, want to be part of the trading community but do not want to be governed by Brussels. We may be the catalyst that encourages more of them to step forward and question the Brussels governance of their countries. It's the possibility of this happening that is prompting all of the fear mongering in Europe.
But he is a mature rabbit you see (going on 9-years-old), and has grown increasingly right-wing with age. He resides in a detached two storey property/hutch, and would like to avoid IHT in the event that others wish to thump about within its walls.
What is stability and a precarious certainty worth though? Have those abstract justifications led to the right decisions for Greece for instance? Irrespective of its failings as an organisation, maintaining the status quo would see favour in the IMF's eyes.
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Perhaps, although part of me thinks that's an almost ingrained cultural thing due to our geographical position. Physically, we're quite cut off from the rest of Europe, whereas a country like Germany or Italy is bordered by a number of other major, significant European countries.
I like the idea of us learning more languages and expanding our horizons; we're very poor in that sense compared to many Europeans who seem to learn English and other major languages on a whim. At the same time though, it's not an imperative, and I could see why some Brits would be pissed off at the idea that they're expected to learn other languages because more people from Europe are coming here, even if there is the aforementioned hypocritical aspect of Brits often going abroad and expecting everyone to speak English.
I guess they're just looking at it from a purely economic perspective. Whatever the rights and wrongs of a Brexit, their outlook is very short-termist but economists hate uncertainty. The impact on sterling has been notable, while capital investment has been sluggish ahead of the vote.
Wants to vote in
Receives propoganda from tories
Votes out
Thats how it will work
Receives propoganda from tories
Votes out
Thats how it will work
Worryingly so. I mean, I'll probably vote In come the day, but I'm struggling to try and actually vote on the same side as Cameron and co.
I am usually a gambling man but that is one bet I wouldn't take. I don't fully trust the British public to see it through. To many will probably bottle it and vote to remain due to fear and uncertainty and that's the advantage the remain campaign have. But I keep my hopes up and definitely believe its going to be a close run thing.
I'm not, I just have a difference of opinion with the majority of this forum it would seem.
Was talking more about the poll you linked, which was about as reliable as a Daily Mail article on anything, ever.
Being anti-EU is fine (minority opinion but hardly scolded). Referring to people staying in as pro-EU nutters, however, is very WUMmish.
Don't leave us lads.
I was just giving an example of another poll with "Leave" miles ahead as I had mentioned earlier in this thread that all of the polls I see have leave ahead and some posters disagreed. I know these things are often inaccurate but I do wonder where the Poll of Polls get their information from. Can anyone show me a poll with Remain ahead by any sort of decent margine? Let alone ahead by 80%.
@BringNaniBack What do you think about the IMF's forecasts today, out of interest?
Poll of polls get their data from actual scientific opinion polls, properly weighted for different areas of the country, party ID, economic status, etc. What you posted is basically the same as the one at the top of this thread, the people voting in it aren't representative of the country at large so the result isn't either. All you can say is ~80% of people that happened to visit that page are pro-exit.
Well I don't trust what the IMF or Christine Lagarde say in the slightest. Its another organisation who are part of the same cabal with the same agenda. I don't necessarily disagree with what they have said as I do think Brexit will pose major challenges for the UK and Europe and damage the global economy but the current world economy cant be sustained and is going to collapse anyway, whether we Brexit or not. Brexit will be a convenient excuse for why it all collapsed but stay or leave, Europe and the United States economies will collapse so what they say doesn't change anything for me. The elites who decide to put information like this out there simply don't want any decentralization of power as it would mean they have less control and often its as simple as that IMO. As much power you can take away from these people the better.
I know it isn't representative of the country at large. Yes all I can say is that 80% of people that happened to visit that page are pro-exit, just as with every other page I have seen. That's all I was saying and I was asking if anyone can show me a poll where it happens to be the other way around where 80% of people who visited a page were Pro EU. You have taken it that I think these polls represent everyone in the nation.
On the poll of polls, I wasn't actually fully aware of how they work but from what you have just said it sounds like they aren't really polls at all. "scientific opinion polls" "party ID, economic status, etc" so with this is anyone actually voting or is this just taking information and making an assumption about how these people will vote? If so that would explain why what I see in polls actually voted in differs from the poll of polls. Or if people do actually vote in the poll i'm saying where can I see this information?
I'm not trying to argue that leave is ahead overall, i'm stating that leave is ahead in the polls I have seen (even if they are unreliable) and i'm asking for someone to show me something different.
What's the point of posting a poll that isn't actually at all representative of wider opinion, though? It's meaningless - the poll you posted indicates/proves/shows nothing at all, other than lots of Brexiters voting in that poll. Asking for a counter-poll is incredibly silly because a poll wherein 80% indicate support for remaining would also be completely invalid of wider public opinion. The Caf poll heavily favours an In vote, but I'm hardly going to use that as evidence, am I?
Going by your logic there is no point having any polls at all unless 100% of the country vote in it. I'm not suggesting it represents the overall view but I am wondering why leave is ahead in all of them. I get it brexit is ahead in all online polls because only Brexiters use the internet. Surely if nearly all large online polls have brexit ahead by that much it indicates something. Maybe it is only pro brexit voters bothering to vote in these little polls, that is entirely possible. I just wanted to see evidence of any other polls which have remain ahead but knowone can show me one, they just shout you down and say these polls don't represent wider opinion.
Not at all. But a poll conducted by an actual polling organisation is a lot more reliable one than a random one is online.
It's quite possible that more Brexiters will be online, too. That's what happened with the Scottish referendum. We voted No, but online presence through social media and polls was overwhelmingly and utterly dominated by the Yes voters. It still didn't matter when it came to the actual vote, though.
Whichever way you look at it there is a big difference between all the polls and the bookies odds.
I assume this means that people willing to risk hard cash on the subject believe opinions will change come polling day?
I assume this means that people willing to risk hard cash on the subject believe opinions will change come polling day?
Remain is winning by 40%, I saw it on a poll
https://www.redcafe.net/threads/eu-referendum.404633/page-30
https://www.redcafe.net/threads/eu-referendum.404633/page-30
Just managed to vote twice on the poll bnn posted, it doesn't just lack weighing, it's also the kind of poll that can be voted on multiple times by brexit groups when they're trying to share it around. It's literally as bad a poll can be run. The only way to make it less representative is to require UKIP membership.
Think you're fundamentally misunderstanding this, mate.
There's a difference between the sort of online poll that anyone could enter (see, top of this page), and a poll conducted by actual polling organisations like IPSOS MORI, YouGov. Think of the type of people who post in the current events forum on redcafe, or who read the The Sun Online, they're going to be quite specific groups of people with similar interests, and somewhat homogeneous political opinions. If 10,000 (or 100,000) people voted on one of those polls it wouldn't matter, as they wouldn't be showing the opinions of a sample of people representative of the wider British population. Polling companies instead are paid to work out what a representative group of people look like, and to then poll them for the answers to these types of questions. If they then didn't provide data that was reflective of the wider British population, they wouldn't make any money (e.g. YouGov made £76m last year). But while any one poll could be off, an average of all polls in theory should give us a strong indication of what people are thinking.
For what it's worth, latest poll info from YouGov:
Poll of polls:
http://whatukthinks.org/eu/opinion-polls/poll-of-polls/# - Interesting table at the bottom of the page, puts it at basically 50-50.
Was just highlighting the absurdity of taking a poll that shows leave on 80% seriously.That's the only one you could find with remain ahead I take it
I know
A common trading market needs a bunch of rules for the stuff being traded, so we did vote to be governed by Brussels in some areas
I like how your username advocates for bringing back an immigrant worker.
Point actually, work permits for every european signing would be a nightmare!
But it's gone well beyond that now hasn't it.
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