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Should the United Kingdom remain a member of the EU?


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Wasn't Suzanne Moore at the Sun for years?

Not sure I get Burchill's argument. Is the UK, after leaving the EU, somehow going to suddenly turn into a feminist utopia?
 
Wasn't Suzanne Moore at the Sun for years?

Not sure I get Burchill's argument. Is the UK, after leaving the EU, somehow going to suddenly turn into a feminist utopia?

Not sure I understand their arguments either although Moore's always been madder than a sack of badgers, don't know if she was a Sun writer but it's pretty hard to nail down the politics of someone who has been on the staff of Marxism today, the Daily Mail and the Guardian. Probably best to say she just enjoys the sound of her own voice and the uproar it can cause whilst Burchill's usually the first one to spring to her defence when she screws up.

Burchill's similarly hard to pin down on what she actually believes, I used to actually like her writing when she was with the NME but her columns in mainstream journalism have always been bizarre and the less said about her forays into novel writing the better (especially the far from feminist soft porn she started out with). By far my favourite bit of her opinion on the Brexit though was:

What has quite rightly been called Project Fear plays on the Nervous Nellie in all people, evoking anxieties about more expense and less security, as though Britain had been some sad wraith of a nation in the pre-EU 1960s instead of the robust, confident country it so memorably was

You were 10 years old when the 60s ended Julie, commentary on the antics of Pinky & Perky I could accept but don't tell us how memorable the 60s was for you in terms of business, industry or politics.
 
It's a good thing there have never been any British murderers or rapists. Or, indeed, murderers or rapists that came from outside the EU on valid visas. These crimes will definitely halt entirely once we are free of the shackles of the EUSSR!!1!

But will it stop the British murderers and rapists committing crimes in the EU, possibly a win situation for Europe
 
Probably been asked before but could anyone outline the positives and negatives of staying in/leaving in an impartial manner please? I feel like I should be slightly more clued up on this but would prefer not to just Google it and read agenda driven views.
 
Probably been asked before but could anyone outline the positives and negatives of staying in/leaving in an impartial manner please? I feel like I should be slightly more clued up on this but would prefer not to just Google it and read agenda driven views.
IN
-Trade
OUT
-Migrants OUT
 
IN
-Trade
OUT
-Migrants OUT

There will be no repatriation of existing migrants. Leaving the EU will not do anything to stop Middle Eastern migrants from attempting to enter the country and claim asylum, we will still have to process them under international law and grant asylum in genuine cases, which is exactly the same as the situation is now. We will still bring in migrants to fill gaps in the labour force and it is highly likely that we will accept free movement of workers under a new trade deal anyway.

I would be amazed if net migration dropped more than 10% as a direct result of a brexit.
 
Probably been asked before but could anyone outline the positives and negatives of staying in/leaving in an impartial manner please? I feel like I should be slightly more clued up on this but would prefer not to just Google it and read agenda driven views.

The Treasury report due in April might help. The Treasury should be the most informed, and hopefully impartial, so if they come out projecting either a big financial gain from exit, or a big loss, then it could be quite influential. I don't expect it to be the former personally, but it would sure sway me if it is.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-eu-referendum-35889593
 
The Treasury report due in April might help. The Treasury should be the most informed, and hopefully impartial, so if they come out projecting either a big financial gain from exit, or a big loss, then it could be quite influential. I don't expect it to be the former personally, but it would sure sway me if it is.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-eu-referendum-35889593

Why on earth should there be any presumption of impartiality from the Treasury, bearing mind its prior record and the stated views of the Chancellor?


And in that vein:

British public must be told truth about immigration figures ahead of EU referendum, says watchdog

By David Berrett, Home Affairs Correspondent
30th March 2016


The Office for National Statistics has been told to launch an urgent review of Britain’s official immigration figures ahead of the European Union referendum amid concerns they may be wrong, The Telegraph can disclose.

In a development which will intensify public debate about immigration ahead of the June 23 vote, the UK Statistics Authority (UKSA) has written to the head of the ONS pointing out “speculation about the quality” of migration figures.

The watchdog said the public must be told if official immigration data “falls short of providing a full picture”.

Campaigners described the watchdog’s letter as “extraordinary”.

The letter revealed the UKSA’s concerns focus on differences between ONS migration figures and data produced by other government departments - which have shown a discrepancy of more than a million EU migrants over the last five years.

Since June 2010, 904,000 EU nationals moved to Britain, according to ONS data, but in comparison the DWP issued 2.25 million National Insurance numbers – a variation of 1.3 million – over the same period.

In the most recent ONS migration figures, published last month, overall immigration including non-EU nationals was put at 617,000 in the 12 months to the end of September 2015.

In comparison, data from the Department for Work and Pensions showed it handed out 828,000 National Insurance Number registrations to foreign-born nationals in 2015.

Although the figures cover slightly different time periods, they showed a potential discrepancy of more than 200,000 over just one year.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/201...be-told-truth-about-immigration-figures-ahea/
 
So 904000 EU citizens move to the Uk and 2.25m National Insurance numbers are issued and the Telegraph can't understand why there is a difference between the two figures.
Could it possibly be that NI numbers are also issued to non-EU immigrants or could it also possibly be that actual UK born citizens are issued with NI numbers too

Any figures on how many UK citizens have emigrated from the UK , to the EU and to countries outside the EU, several million I believe.
So let's send all the immigrants back to where they came from and force all those who have emigrated to return back to the UK
I refuse to come back!!
 
So 904000 EU citizens move to the Uk and 2.25m National Insurance numbers are issued and the Telegraph can't understand why there is a difference between the two figures.
Could it possibly be that NI numbers are also issued to non-EU immigrants or could it also possibly be that actual UK born citizens are issued with NI numbers too

Any figures on how many UK citizens have emigrated from the UK , to the EU and to countries outside the EU, several million I believe.
So let's send all the immigrants back to where they came from and force all those who have emigrated to return back to the UK
I refuse to come back!!

I don't know the source of the 2.25 million figure, the closest I can find appears to be based on FOI data obtained from DWP from 2015 found here - http://www.niesr.ac.uk/blog/recent-eu-migration-uk-can-we-trust-government-numbers#.Vv16Bkc1ZPZ (the "nearly 2 million" link). That shows approx 500,000 each year from the EU although it only goes up to Sep 2015. There is the question of how many of the NINO's are still active.
 
So 904000 EU citizens move to the Uk and 2.25m National Insurance numbers are issued and the Telegraph can't understand why there is a difference between the two figures.
Could it possibly be that NI numbers are also issued to non-EU immigrants or could it also possibly be that actual UK born citizens are issued with NI numbers too

I think In you rush to judgement you overlooked two important details: firstly, that the UKSA is not the Telegraph newspaper; secondly, the figures pertain to foreign nationals. People are wondering if they can trust the official data, which is hardly a new occurrence.


So let's send all the immigrants back to where they came from

Because that is what the Leave movement represents. :rolleyes:

From reductions in immigration to increased numbers of refugees, both concerns can be consistently part of the call for Brexit. The people we elect in this country will be able to implement a more nuanced policy; no longer will it be possible to outsource half of the blame to Brussels, Paris or Berlin (for all that Europe has been quite inept during this migrant crisis),
 
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Why on earth should there be any presumption of impartiality from the Treasury, bearing mind its prior record and the stated views of the Chancellor?

They will have to lay out their figures and assumptions, which will the best starting point for debate you are going to get, like it or not.

Where people disagree they will be able to say so, and win or lose according to the quality of the counter-argument they can put up.
 
I think In you rush to judgement you overlooked two important details: firstly, that the UKSA is not the Telegraph newspaper; secondly, the figures pertain to foreign nationals. People are wondering if they can trust the official data, which is hardly a new occurrence.




Because that is what the Leave movement represents. :rolleyes:

From reductions in immigration to increased numbers of refugees, both concerns can be consistently part of the call for Brexit. The people we elect in this country will be able to implement a more nuanced policy; no longer will it be possible to outsource half of the blame to Brussels, Paris or Berlin (for all that Europe has been quite inept during this migrant crisis),
God knows who we will blame for all our social ills if we do leave the EU.
 
I think In you rush to judgement you overlooked two important details: firstly, that the UKSA is not the Telegraph newspaper; secondly, the figures pertain to foreign nationals. People are wondering if they can trust the official data, which is hardly a new occurrence.




Because that is what the Leave movement represents. :rolleyes:

From reductions in immigration to increased numbers of refugees, both concerns can be consistently part of the call for Brexit. The people we elect in this country will be able to implement a more nuanced policy; no longer will it be possible to outsource half of the blame to Brussels, Paris or Berlin (for all that Europe has been quite inept during this migrant crisis),

I was being facetious but the DWP figure of 2.25m doesn't refer only to foreign nationals.
Anyway, those that believe that leaving the EU will have any real impact on immigration to the UK will probably be in for a shock.
People hoping that if they leave the EU then home rather than European government will solve all sorts of problems will probably be disappointed too, very few competent politicians in the Uk at present and like most politicians they are only interested in their own interests.

Hopefully people will vote to stay in
 
REVEALED: Europe’s secret revenge plans for Brexit

EXCLUSIVE / Vengeful European Commission officials have drawn up a secret punishment list for the UK if it chooses to leave the EU at the 23 June referendum on its membership of the bloc.

Senior bureaucrats have produced an internal 9-page non-paper of measures — seen by EurActiv — that are planned to be so harsh that no other member state will ever dare to quit the EU.

“The Brits wanted special treatment,” one Luxembourgish official gloated, “well they are going to get it.”

The “revenge list” was prepared in total secrecy, under orders from the highest levels of the Commission. It will be published officially at noon later today (1 April).

EurActiv can exclusively reveal that the terms of the divorce are set to be messier than even the most ardent of arch-federalists could have dreamed.

Measures include:

  1. Swift expulsion of British officials in the EU institutions on “security and data protection” grounds;
  2. Refusal to negotiate free trade agreements with the UK, and the imposition of trade tariffs;
  3. Carte blanche for member states to restrict British nationals’ ability to live and work in the EU;
  4. Support for Spain’s claim over Gibraltar;
  5. A raft of measures to boost institutional use of French and German, at the cost of English;
  6. Withdrawal of British eligibility for Interail and ERASMUS placements;
  7. A ban on BBC period dramas on the grounds of protecting European cultural identity ;
  8. Measures to isolate the City of London and shift the EU’s financial hub to Frankfurt or Paris;
  9. Deportation of British criminals in EU prisons to Turkey, in exchange for refugees.
“Cameron thinks he can play hardball with the EU – well the EU is going to hit him hard,” said one Irish official, referring to the British Prime Minister’s tactic of using of threat of Brexit to bring EU reform.

“We got the idea after binge-watching House of Cards on Netflix,” he added.

The full Commission document can be accessed here.
 
(some of the) problems with polling

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-35926183

We are used to weary cynicism about British polling. But one novel question that has come up from the EU referendum polling is not the usual "why did they all get it wrong at the last election?" but "why do they all seem to say different things?".

One curiosity is that the phone polls have consistently shown Remain doing better than in the online polls. So who is right?

Happily, a new piece of research by James Kanagasooriam, an analyst for pollster Populus, and Matt Singh, who runs Number Cruncher Politics and one of the few polling analysts to predict a Tory win last year, has put forward a fairly compelling thesis about why this is happening.

Populus, which has been working for the Remain campaign, runs both online and phone polls.

Sure enough, when they ran a classic phone poll, they found Remain had an 11-point lead but in a similar online poll, they found Leave had a six-point lead. Their task was to explain that difference.

Their research uses two techniques to work out what has been going on. Firstly, they run several online and phone polls under different conditions and scrutinised the results and secondly, they compare results to the British Election Study. This is the gold standard survey in Britain and is run by academics from across the UK.

Normal polls, in effect, ring people or email them to take a poll. When they have enough answers, they give some respondents' replies more weight than others so they simulate the effect of having asked a cross-section of British society.

If they get, say, half as many Welsh working-class men as there are in the population, answers by poll respondents from that group would be given double weight.

The BES poll is rather different.

In effect, they choose who they would like to answer the poll by randomly selecting addresses and then the people at those addresses and they they repeatedly try to contact that person. That means that their cross-section is much better and, for example, their results for the 2015 election matched the real results.

Explaining the gap
One of the critical issues identified by this research is that the sampling process has been going wrong.

Imagine a world where you constructed a survey which matched the population measured on every demographic and political dimension you can imagine.

You might well find that questions on politics were answered perfectly. But what if, say, you happened to have too many vegetarians?

You might never find out until you polled on, say, animal rights - when you might get a shock.

That, in effect, is what seems to have happened here. When you look beyond some of the normal dimensions - political allegiance and demography - you find that the samples are a bit wrong for online and phone polls.

But because the two styles of poll are put together in different ways, the biases point in different directions for each one.

For example, the BES finds that around 32% of people think racial equality "has not gone far enough". If you ask the same question in a phone poll, 40% of people fall in that category. When you ask the same in an online poll, you get 25%. So the phone polls look too socially liberal and the online polls look too socially conservative.

Taking that into consideration, the Populus Number Cruncher research suggests that this sampling error is increasing the lead for Leave by about 3 percentage points for online polls and increasing it for Remain in the phone polls by about 5 percentage points.

Taken together, those two sampling errors explain nearly half of the 16-point gap.

The 'Don't Know' gap
The other critical issue they have shown is that there appears to be a large pool of voters who, if offered the option to say "Don't Know", will pick that. That is typically how the online polls are put together.

But if they're only prompted to answer "Leave" or "Remain", they tend to move to "Remain" and that is typically how phone polls are constructed.

This means, they argue, that there is a pool of people who are semi-engaged and don't want to commit, even to a pollster, but when push comes to shove, their preference is for Remain. That's worth about 5 percentage points of the gap between the polls.

The results, taken together, mean they can explain 13 percentage points of the difference, leaving 3 percentage points unexplained.

But, even so, they suggest that while the phone polls are too kind to Remain, they're probably a better estimate about the current state of opinion.

That is good for Remain - it implies their position is a bit stronger than a crude poll average suggests.

_89002409_pop1.jpg
Image copyrightPopulus / Number Cruncher Politics
Image captionHow to explain the 16 percentage point gap between between online and phone polls?
It implies a comfortable lead for Remain - well out of the margin of error - although, of course, the campaign may change minds and this does not adjust for turnout effects. There's everything to play for.

Pity the pollsters
One really helpful thing that this report really brings out is just how hard it is to build good samples.

For example, you might think that it is easy to find out how people voted at the last election if you are polling them. Just ask. But, over time, people's memory of their vote deteriorates.

Here is a graph showing how many people said they voted UKIP plotted against the days that have passed since the general election - the numbers have dropped as time elapsed. People tend to misremember voting for small parties and recall voting for major parties - so the recalled UKIP share drops.

_89002470_pop2.jpg
Image copyrightPopulus / Number Cruncher Politics
Image captionHow many people remember voting UKIP in the days after an election?
That's fixable with weighting, but there's a second issue that this research highlights, too.

Some people are relatively easy to reach by pollsters, but some are more difficult.

So long as, say, the sort of Conservative voter who answers questions is similar to the sort who doesn't want to bother, that's fine. But that's not the case.

This is a graph showing what the lead for "Remain" is from people surveyed by the British Election Study, against the number of times that researchers had gone around the block to get people to reply.

So the people who responded to their questions immediately were reasonably pro-Leave. That's the column against the number "1". They score a roughly 11 point lead for Remain.

_89002472_pop3.jpg
Image copyrightPopulus / Number Cruncher Politics
Image captionHard-to-reach voters are different to easy-to-reach ones
You can see that, as they layer in results from harder-to-reach voters, the numbers move a long way.

By the time that researchers have tried each household eight times, the lead has grown to around 18%.

The easy-to-reach voter appears to have quite different characteristics to the hard-to-reach ones - and that is a major headache for pollsters.

You can see why it is so hard to put a poll together that's both accurate and cheap.
 
REVEALED: Europe’s secret revenge plans for Brexit

EXCLUSIVE / Vengeful European Commission officials have drawn up a secret punishment list for the UK if it chooses to leave the EU at the 23 June referendum on its membership of the bloc.

Senior bureaucrats have produced an internal 9-page non-paper of measures — seen by EurActiv — that are planned to be so harsh that no other member state will ever dare to quit the EU.

“The Brits wanted special treatment,” one Luxembourgish official gloated, “well they are going to get it.”

The “revenge list” was prepared in total secrecy, under orders from the highest levels of the Commission. It will be published officially at noon later today (1 April).

EurActiv can exclusively reveal that the terms of the divorce are set to be messier than even the most ardent of arch-federalists could have dreamed.

Measures include:

  1. Swift expulsion of British officials in the EU institutions on “security and data protection” grounds;
  2. Refusal to negotiate free trade agreements with the UK, and the imposition of trade tariffs;
  3. Carte blanche for member states to restrict British nationals’ ability to live and work in the EU;
  4. Support for Spain’s claim over Gibraltar;
  5. A raft of measures to boost institutional use of French and German, at the cost of English;
  6. Withdrawal of British eligibility for Interail and ERASMUS placements;
  7. A ban on BBC period dramas on the grounds of protecting European cultural identity ;
  8. Measures to isolate the City of London and shift the EU’s financial hub to Frankfurt or Paris;
  9. Deportation of British criminals in EU prisons to Turkey, in exchange for refugees.
“Cameron thinks he can play hardball with the EU – well the EU is going to hit him hard,” said one Irish official, referring to the British Prime Minister’s tactic of using of threat of Brexit to bring EU reform.

“We got the idea after binge-watching House of Cards on Netflix,” he added.

The full Commission document can be accessed here.

I didn't realise this was a joke until the 'House of cards' bit - although the 'BBC period drama' thing raised my eyebrows dramatically...
 
*shrugs* Remain and the EU are in no position to preach about corruption in politics.
Nick - genuine question but Im interested to know your thoughts...

We come from opposite sides of this debate and I'm interested to know what your reaction will be should we choose to stay?
I am assuming any decision will be close
Will it be acceptance that the public has made a decision?
Or if say 48% of people have wanted out will that make you more determined to demand further concessions or even push for another vote?
Perhaps most interesting for me is what if a majority in England have voted to leave but a majority in the UK (as a large stay vote is expected in scotland) vote to stay?

Personally If it is an out vote I will be too busy dealing with restructuring my business to have much time for everything else but I will have to accept the decision... but I do worry that some (on both sides) wont be as accepting of the result and it could become quite divisive
 
Nick - genuine question but Im interested to know your thoughts...

We come from opposite sides of this debate and I'm interested to know what your reaction will be should we choose to stay?
I am assuming any decision will be close
Will it be acceptance that the public has made a decision?
Or if say 48% of people have wanted out will that make you more determined to demand further concessions or even push for another vote?
Perhaps most interesting for me is what if a majority in England have voted to leave but a majority in the UK (as a large stay vote is expected in scotland) vote to stay?

Personally If it is an out vote I will be too busy dealing with restructuring my business to have much time for everything else but I will have to accept the decision... but I do worry that some (on both sides) wont be as accepting of the result and it could become quite divisive

Disappointment, despair, drink...:smirk:

Whilst there is a tendency to draw comparisons with the Scottish referendum, i do not envisage Euroscepticism being the recipient of the same type of bounce. In all likelihood this is a now or never moment, one upon which the course of history could be determined, quite unlike last year's election. If the vested interests tied to Brussels are triumphant i think we could be heading down an increasingly authoritarian path.

There would be many political figures who i'd struggle to offer even indirect support for as a result. I doubt whether i could have voted for an Osborne-led Tory party in any event, and the Left would have been even more complicit in the betrayal. Maybe i'd walk away from party politics entirely and focus on issues that transcend the UK and Europe both, unless a new party were to be formed that is.


ETA: Would it be necessary to resrruure you business the following day? There is no set deadline for the triggering of Article 50 you know, it could be weeks, months even. This idea that negotiations must be completed within two years is not reflected in the EU's own rules.
 
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Disappointment, despair, drink...:smirk:

Whilst there is a tendency to draw comparisons with the Scottish referendum, i do not envisage Euroscepticism being the recipient of the same type of bounce. In all likelihood this is a now or never moment, one upon which the course of history could be determined, quite unlike last year's election. If the vested interests tied to Brussels are triumphant i think we could be heading down an increasingly authoritarian path.

There would be many political figures who i'd struggle to offer even indirect support for as a result. I doubt whether i could have voted for an Osborne-led Tory party in any event, and the Left would have been even more complicit in the betrayal. Maybe i'd walk away from party politics entirely and focus on issues that transcend the UK and Europe both, unless a new party were to be formed that is.


ETA: Would it be necessary to resrruure you business the following day? There is no set deadline for the triggering of Article 50 you know, it could be weeks, months even. This idea that negotiations must be completed within two years is not reflected in the EU's own rules.

I run the European arm of a Dutch business...
We have run through the scenarios and have put a hold on expansion awaiting the result
In we build a new factory in the uk
Out and it's france
People seem fixated on free movement of people but as soon as there is any doubt over free movement of capital then the risk reward on large investment changes
 

Remain has had a deal of trouble responding to concerns about the future of the NHS: as can be seen in the response to Lord Owen they shy away from direct references to healthcare, much preferring their spurious claims about the economy. The onset of a recession should now be seen as a certainty don't you know, and those things can['t possible be brought on by failures in European policy...

And as regards the specific issue of TTIP and its consequences, Leave is the only vote that might make it a serious election issue.



Owen Jones interview with Daniel Hannan:
 
Remain has had a deal of trouble responding to concerns about the future of the NHS: as can be seen in the response to Lord Owen they shy away from direct references to healthcare, much preferring their spurious claims about the economy. The onset of a recession should now be seen as a certainty don't you know, and those things can['t possible be brought on by failures in European policy...

And as regards the specific issue of TTIP and its consequences, Leave is the only vote that might make it a serious election issue.

Owen Jones interview with Daniel Hannan:


The Guardian article makes it pretty clear that not everyone agrees with Owen, I'm afraid his opinion has to go down as unproven for now. If his interpretation of the deal is correct though, and if we vote Out, then it doesn't look as if we could make any quick and easy trade deals of our own with the US, our chief export market, as the Out campaigners generally claim will happen. Maybe the UK having to stand aside and watch Europe reap the rewards of it's deal would be a price worth paying for 'saving the NHS', I don't know.

I thought Hannon spoke very well on democracy, and it's something I do think about and could help make my mind up. Unfortunately he then gilded the lily by saying a decisive Remain vote would also mean joining the Euro and Schengen. How to throw away a good argument.

edit: I thought Owen Jones came across well too.
 
For some reason people are ignoring any risks to the NHS. It's almost as if they don't acknowledge them then they won't happen.

Foolish...almost everyone in the UK values the NHS above anything else. Only they can stop it being privatised and only then if we are governed by the UK, not governed by Europe.
 
I can't get my head round this NHS privatisation and the US treaty thing. If the government awards contracts to private firms (which I would probably be against in the first place, but no matter) then is it imagined that these contracts would be in perpetuity, rather than for a fixed period? Obviously they would be for a fixed period which, when finished, would be the ended. Where does the US treaty come in?
 
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