I'm not sure Hitler's vision was quite the same.
EU Referendum | UK residents vote today.
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A bit more violent
A deal has been reached according to the President of Lithuania.
Tusk confirms unanimous support for deal, includes 7 year "brake" and written opt-out of "ever closer union".
Meanwhile, George Galloway is campaigning alongside Nigel Farage for the Grassroots Out campaign A winning ticket, right there.
A winning ticket, right there.Presumably the FTSE will surge tomorrow?
On the face of things it looks like a good deal as far as Cameron is concerned. There are certainly no humiliating concessions like many predicted.
There might be. Should imagine we have had to make concessions somewhere but he won't mention those.
His greatest asset is that he is a good speaker....but his words often deceive. (What happened to the 13 yr break?)
His greatest asset is that he is a good speaker....but his words often deceive. (What happened to the 13 yr break?)
Why do people care how Corbyn, BoJo or Gove are going to vote? Can people not think for themselves or something.
Prime Minister, does this deal make it possible for a British government to control the rate of immigration? No
Has there been any treaty change, or significant repatriation of powers? No
Are we still sending £360m to Brussels each and every week? Yes
Would it be fair to say, that you've been less effective than a lead parachute? Probably
Has there been any treaty change, or significant repatriation of powers? No
Are we still sending £360m to Brussels each and every week? Yes
Would it be fair to say, that you've been less effective than a lead parachute? Probably
7 year compromise. Which is reasonable.
I am not British so I do have a say. But I've lived here for the past six years and it will be a sad day if the UK were to leave IMO.
You bastard Nick, I've just been congratulating myself on remaining invested, and now I'll have restless night's sleep, because of you!
More a question of who's going to lead the Out campaign, encouraging people to vote against the status quo is difficult without a figurehead.
And this is the current state of GO:
Sven was unexpected in fairness.
The extent to which it will actually affect migrant numbers is highly debatable, and it doesn't even come into effect until 2020. With there being no treaty change to speak of, the EU could renege on part or all of this modest agreement fairly easily (by which time Cameron will have retired).
That's only for existing claimants of child benefit. For new claimants of that and in-work benefits, the brake takes effect as soon as it's applied.
The referendum as far as I can see is about getting the vote out... I talk to very few people who don't have a fairly firm opinion to start with
I've still not made my mind up sun, and I think that's pretty common. I read somewhere that for many the head will vote In and the heart will vote Out, but which will win is yet to be decided.
This..."brake" is an answer to a question which few people were even asking. It's like when Cameron goes all Farage-lite on us to sound tough, little but smoke and mirrors for he electorate. If the referendum were but a few weeks away the deal might have had a pivotal impact, yet with four months of campaigning ahead of us its worth can only diminish.
Well, the 13yr break was not what people wanted, they wanted a permanent "break" so a 7yrs break is not worth the effort. Really he's achieved nothing.
You never heard "immigrants come over here and live on benefits"? I did, plenty.
But yeah I doubt it'll impact greatly, just keeps the fundamentals as they were with Remain being the reasonably more likely outcome.
For me it seems to be the other way around. The sentimental part of me is saying vote to stay in but my head is saying vote Out.
I haven't read a single persuasive argument for why it's in Britain's economic interest to remain in the EU. All I've seen so far as intellectually dishonest rubbish that portrays a false reality of EU membership being necessary for smooth trading activities with the rest Europe when the evidence seems to suggest that this is not the case. In fact, there does seem to be a convincing argument that Britain will be economically better off outside of the EU due to the ability to negotiate more beneficial trading deals with non-EU countries.
It's not that, it's what they'll campaign for - the In side will have a lot more backing if people see Farage and Galloway debating Cameron and Corbyn.
This must've got lost amidst the news about Gove and Cameron's sop to the public:
Yet it could prove to be important than both.
Well, yes, but are those for people for whom immigration is an issue going to be won over by a policy which leaves the annual total mostly unchanged?
Yet it could prove to be important than both.
Well, yes, but are those for people for whom immigration is an issue going to be won over by a policy which leaves the annual total mostly unchanged?
Pretty much. Cameron's speech sounds like a load of fluff to be honest: it essentially states that we're staying like we are, without doing too much either.
I don't really get his stance either. He wants to be in the EU...but not the euro, the ever closer union, bailing out other countries...or most of the stuff that the EU is generally supposed to involve. I mean, what's the point?
Free trade, movement of capital... Right to work are all pretty decent points imo
Yes... Its about as likely as your corner shop negotiating a better deal with suppliers than tescos can though
Exactly. International trade deals take years to negotiate and work out. Other nations and trading blocks will always come to agreement with the huge EU first, and then turn to us and offer us the same or worse because we'll have less clout to bargain with.
The thing that I always fall back on is all this talk of deals we could do outside of the EU, what leverage do people think we'd have to make those deals on more favourable terms than we would inside the economic power-house of the EU? We're a relatively small economy on our own and have a fairly piddly manufacturing base, again in comparison.
I'd sooner negotiate with the US, China and the emerging economies as part of the EU than on our own where we'd be the junior partner on pretty much every major trade deal we could strike with the world's largest economies.
I'd sooner negotiate with the US, China and the emerging economies as part of the EU than on our own where we'd be the junior partner on pretty much every major trade deal we could strike with the world's largest economies.
Exactly .We would be picking up the crumbs from the table.Would be voting to stay in .The out campaign as not convinced me what future they see by opting out.
You assume that trade deals done by the EU are good deals for Britain when they are are often done to protect the interest of other members at the UK's expense. Like agriculture for example.
Also a trade deal with these other countries wouldn't involve them telling us what laws we have to live by and demand billions in direct payments from our taxes would they?
I know it is hard for people to understand but the whole point of this argument is what the UK gives up in other areas other than trade in order to get the dubious advantage of letting the EU negotiate for us.
Is the EU even doing a good job on the trade deals it strikes when you look at trade balances it appears not.
British people tend to have an overinflated sense of their country's importance. See the "migrants and refugees all want to come here" thinking, despite plenty of evidence to the contrary.
I'm not assuming that at all, I'm saying that I believe that on the whole they're better than what the UK could negotiate alone. As @Untied just said, we have an overinflated sense of our importance and our standing in the world. On our own we're not a major player and we'd be very, very unlikely to be able to negotiate outside the EU on a unilateral basis with the world's biggest and emerging economies on better or even similar terms to what we have now. If you're the biggest single-country economy in the world wanting to trade in a certain item and the choice was between trading with one solitary country or trading with an economic block of 500m people that'd also give you access to everything else they traded in - what would you choose?
I don't doubt we could negotiate on our own but as @sun_tzu said, it'd be like thinking a corner shop could get the same or better deal with their suppliers as Tesco can.
We are a net importer from the EU
This can be spun either as "They need us to buy from them" or "We need them to sell to us". I lean towards the latter.
EDIT: I will also say it is amusing how those in favour of leaving often talk up the trade deals we could make with the US etc, when one of my biggest concerns about continued EU membership is the overly open and favourable trade deal currently being negotiated with the US (TTIP).
International trade is conducted by firms, not governments. Most of the world's nations aren't part of huge trading blocs and are none the worse for it, a majority which presently includes two small, but very well-off, European countries, Switzerland and Iceland.
Trade agreements are conducted on the basis of reciprocity - you give us access to your markets and we'll allow you access to ours. If mutual advantage is served, the deal will be struck. Size has nothing to do with it. If it had, small countries would have gone to the wall long ago, rather than having always been among the most prosperous on the planet, long before the EU ever existed.
Internationally no one gives a feck what the UK has to say, despite people like Blair and Cameron pretending otherwise (it tends to just do whatever the US does lol)
But -
Britain is the 2nd richest nation in the EU. I think the EU is very much diminished without the UK.
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A vote for Out is a vote for a big change, and it's up to the Out campaign to explain what that change will be in terms of cost, trade, and employment. They have failed to do so up to now, no doubt because they don't actually know themselves. 'In' support is for status quo, they don't really have to do anything, the onus of explanation is on those who want change, who want Out.
Defo Brexit for me.
Massively unsure about Europe. There's a handful a 'good' countries in it for me....we're carrying the rest. Also, I have absolutely zero interest in funneling UK cash for Croatian farmers or building infrastructure in Romania!
Massively unsure about Europe. There's a handful a 'good' countries in it for me....we're carrying the rest. Also, I have absolutely zero interest in funneling UK cash for Croatian farmers or building infrastructure in Romania!
Absolute nonsense. If a Bulgaria or Romania had the same issues as the UK, I highly doubt a discussion would be held at all!
The UK is a massive superpower (economically, socially and politically), and am bewildered people don't agree with this!
Corner shop as an analogy?!
We're the 5th biggest economy in the ENTIRE WORLD!
For context: India is 9th, S.Arabia is 19th, Iran is 29th (who are doing their deals now), Canada is 11th, Russia 10th, etc!
Something ironic about this - we're currently undergoing much needed rail infrastructure upgrades to increase capacity, but unfortunately there isn't the knowledge and skills base in the UK alone to undertake them. The only way we're able to do it is by recruiting from a country that has such a skills base - which is, you guessed it, Romania.
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