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Should the United Kingdom remain a member of the EU?


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Well the idea that all Jihadist come from mainland Europe and not the UK is nonsense(remember Jihadi John). He could say that. The idea that a British based Jihadist would need to cross boarders from Europe to cause a threat to our way of life is totally wrong. He could have used that. We are stronger together. He could say that.

There are lost of ways to refute the idea that being out of Europe would make us safer.

Yes he could of said those things and it wouldn't of done him any favors so he didn't. He simply cant refute any of it or make out being in Europe is a good idea after those attacks.

For example if he had said; "Well the idea that all Jihadist come from mainland Europe and not the UK is nonsense" Yes that true, so its better that we keep boarders open so we have to deal with UK based Jahadist and Jahadist coming from the EU as well is it? Deal with one lot or two lots, which is easier? Which makes us safer? "We are stronger together" well clearly we aren't if it means more possible terrorists entering the country.

I get your point, I just don't think he could have said anything to help his cause there.
 
Yes he could of said those things and it wouldn't of done him any favors so he didn't. He simply cant refute any of it or make out being in Europe is a better idea after those attacks.

For example if he had said; "Well the idea that all Jihadist come from mainland Europe and not the UK is nonsense" Yes that true, so its better that we keep boarders open so we have to deal with UK based Jahadist and Jahadist coming form the EU is it? Deal with one lot or two lots, which is easier? Which makes us safer? "We are stronger together" well clearly we aren't if it means more possible terrorists enter the country.

I get your point, I just don't think he could have said anything to help his cause there.
We havent got open boaders we opted out of it back in the 1980's
 
There was a Telegraph journalist posting about how this supports Brexit less than an hour after the reported explosions at the airport. In my view, it's insensitive. People are dying, no number have been confirmed, yet the first thing you post is this.

Found the tweet.

Breaking news from the BBC


07:20 GMT

Reaction.

07:45 GMT.

I'm sorry, but the way I see it, it's inappropriate and badly timed.


I have to agree.
Those comments are neither inappropriate or badly timed, because right now it's how people feel. It's a current issue and therefore those thoughts spring to mind immediately.
 
We havent got open boaders we opted out of it back in the 1980's

We are taking refugees and we have free movement between EU countries. So once any possible terrorist becomes a citizen of an EU country they can be on their way here in a few years. Not far off open boarders.
 
Those comments are neither inappropriate or badly timed, because right now it's how people feel. It's a current issue and therefore those thoughts spring to mind immediately.
Not an issue with the comments. I totally understand those opinions. What I don't agree with is immediately using the event to campaign for your political motives.

The woman who made that tweet was by no means alone in saying such things so quickly. It just annoys me somewhat, that some spend no time reflecting on what's happened or at the very least waited until a mature understanding of the events is know before making politically motivated comments.
 
I doubt whether i would have said anything when matters were stills so raw, however the question will arise sooner or later. And let's make no mistake here, the Remain camp has previously implied that leaving the EU is tantamount to inviting terrorism on the country. Right now Cameron calls on us to "stand together", yet in a few days this will be expanded to "stand together as members of the European Union".

Whilst UKIP is a ready target for many people (and i can understand why), the relative silence on here with regard to the proposed EU-Turkey deal speaks less well of the organisation's proponents. A few tweets prompt more invective than a vastly distasteful treaty affecting hundreds of thousands? Sounds about right.
 
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Does the Deputy Political Editor of the Daily Mirror not know the identity of the MP that Boris allegedly had this discussion with? Without basic details like that I would have difficulty taking the veracity of the claim seriously.
 
We are taking refugees and we have free movement between EU countries. So once any possible terrorist becomes a citizen of an EU country they can be on their way here in a few years. Not far off open boarders.

We would still be taking refugees if we were not in the EU. A Brexit will not stop Middle Eastern asylum seekers from trying to enter the UK if that is what they want to do. If they land in the UK they would be processed and if they were genuine asylum seekers they would be granted asylum.
 
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Does the Deputy Political Editor of the Daily Mirror not know the identity of the MP that Boris allegedly had this discussion with? Without basic details like that I would have difficulty taking the veracity of the claim seriously.
Did you read the second tweet?

Quite something when even high Tory Eurosceptic Andrew Tyrie accuses Boris of spouting "mountains of nonsense" on EU.
 


Their exchanges were wonderfully entertaining, although possibly less so to campaigners for Brexit. One by one, Mr Tyrie examined a series of claims the Mayor had made about the EU’s myriad horrors, and ventured politely that, in each case, he was mistaken.

No, the EU had not banned children under eight from blowing up balloons. No, it had not banned the recycling of tea bags. No, it had not dictated limits on the size of coffins. (“The story appears,” suggested Mr Tyrie gently, “to be a figment of your imagination.”)

The Mayor defended himself with typical gusto. The problem, he retorted, was that in Britain “we do relish bureaucracy”, and as a result we had “over-zealously” implemented rules that other European countries hadn’t bothered with.

Silently the committee attempted to digest the notion that the British were too bureaucratic for the EU.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/pol...-and-the-mystery-of-the-missing-tea-bags.html

The telegraph have really turned around with their anti eu stuff and actually are presenting things properly!

Why, just a few years ago, the Telegraph were writing on children being banned from blowing up baloons by the EU! Poor Boris.
Children to be banned from blowing up balloons, under EU safety rules
Children are to be banned from taking part in traditional Christmas games, from blowing up balloons to blowing on party whistles, because of new EU safety rules that have just entered into force.

The EU toy safety directive, agreed and implemented by Government, states that balloons must not be blown up by unsupervised children under the age of eight, in case they accidentally swallow them and choke.

Despite having been popular favourites for generations of children, party games including whistles and magnetic fishing games are to be banned because their small parts or chemicals used in making them are decreed to be too risky.

Apparently harmless toys that children have enjoyed for decades are now regarded by EU regulators as posing an unacceptable safety risk.

Whistle blowers, that scroll out into a a long coloured paper tongue when sounded – a party favourite at family Christmas meals – are now classed as unsafe for all children under 14.

The new rules are designed to protect children from the chance that a piece of the whistle could be swallowed and cause choking.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/wor...lowing-up-balloons-under-EU-safety-rules.html
 
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I like Tyrie. He was always a real rottweiler in the Treasury Select Committee.
 
I wonder what a Brexit will do to the Premier League. Loads of EU players who wouldn't qualify for a permit under the current FA rules.
 
To be fair, when there's a mass shooting in America for example, people are straight away making points about guns. People don't seem to have an issue with it then (except the gun nuts)

Very true, and to the point where some posters are almost falling over themselves in their rush to post the first trite piece of sarcasm.



 
' Brexit would bring two potentially important security gains: the ability to dump the European Convention on Human Rights'

Damn those pesky human rights getting in the way of 'security'.
 
' Brexit would bring two potentially important security gains: the ability to dump the European Convention on Human Rights'

Damn those pesky human rights getting in the way of 'security'.

It is at least a more honest position than that of your beloved European Union (as seen below). And of course if you don't like the policy of the day, you can vote to change it.



Oh those cuddly progressives in Brussels, they bring a tear to the eye.
 
It is at least a more honest position than that of your beloved European Union (as seen below). And of course if you don't like the policy of the day, you can vote to change it.



Oh those cuddly progressives in Brussels, they bring a tear to the eye.


Shockingly, I'm capable of thinking that one thing is bad, whilst thinking another thing is good.

Besides, I thought inhuman, draconian border controls were exactly what the anti-EU, anti-immigration side of this debate wanted?
 
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Besides, I thought inhuman, draconian border controls were exactly what the anti-EU, anti-immigration side of this debate wanted?

Certainly, the Remain campaign would like to project such views upon all Brexit supporters, but it is hardly truthful.

Brussels' loyalists don't want to hear that the side they are cheering on is all too happy to toss human rights out f the nearest window, so it falls upon Leave to remind them of their...misplaced allegiance shall we say. This is why there are Greens, Lib Dems and Labour, standing alongside Tories and UKIP.
 
Interesting breakdown of which groups support Remain or Leave



Essentially, turning people out should be the razor focus of Remain. If it's treated like a normal referendum and the older voters decide it, we're out.
 
I'm confused about the ALL and Women columns.

Weren't Women meant to be pro-staying?

Wasn't staying meant to be in the lead?

Or is this breakdown only for newspapers.

Maybe I should click the link
 
What is it about the rest of the EU that appeals to so many people? We asked people which country was best at doing nine different things, and listed the seven member states on which we reckoned most people would have views. Britain outscored the combined total of its six rivals on three: having the most generous welfare system (50 per cent said the UK; 23 per cent said one of the other six countries); the best relations between people from different backgrounds and ethnic groups (32 per cent; 22 per cent); and having the best democratic system (31 per cent; 24 per cent).

I hate questions like this. Most people know nothing about other countries. People always think their country is the "kindest, fairest, most democratic", etc.
 
Who the feck are the 3% of UKIP supporters that want to remain in the EU? :lol:
I've found that in every poll there's a "moron factor", where a few percent of a subsample will saying something completely counter to something else they've said.

Genuinely surprised so many Mail and Express readers are for Remain too.
 
Who the feck are the 3% of UKIP supporters that want to remain in the EU? :lol:

Stranger things had happened. For example there are some Manchester United supporters who want Giggs as LVG's successor
 
Yeah, YouGov are online only. Should be said that online polls actually give better results for Leave than phone polls do.

Indeed, I have heard that said in the past; although i do find myself doubting either online or phone surveys. Barring a really low turnout, which i presume would favour Leave, i think the result is quite hard to predict. Emotion (be it fear or indignation/protest) is going to play a greater role than at a GE IMO, and there could also be a small 'shy Brexiter' element to proceedings.
 
I wonder what a Brexit will do to the Premier League. Loads of EU players who wouldn't qualify for a permit under the current FA rules.

What's going to happen to me - a Brit living in France - think I'll defect and become a Frenchman while cowering under my kitchen table shaking like a leaf
 
' Brexit would bring two potentially important security gains: the ability to dump the European Convention on Human Rights'

Damn those pesky human rights getting in the way of 'security'.
It would prevent daft situations suchvas the decade or so and many millions of pounds it took to finally deport Abu Hamza. We'd still be signed up to UN human rights charters etc...
 
It would prevent daft situations suchvas the decade or so and many millions of pounds it took to finally deport Abu Hamza. We'd still be signed up to UN human rights charters etc...
The UN human rights charter doesn't stop the US, Iran, etc from executing people. You might say that we don't need European human rights, after all, we wrote the damned thing. But it's not just about us. It's about every other country in Europe and the world.

Turkey.. want to be considered for EU membership? Sort your human rights out? Hungry, you cracking down on free press. We'll see about that. And so on.

If I disagree with a British law, does that give me the right to disobey it? Britain is funny in that we seem to think we have the right to do whatever the hell we want. Inside or outside the EU, that isn't true
 
The UN human rights charter doesn't stop the US, Iran, etc from executing people. You might say that we don't need European human rights, after all, we wrote the damned thing. But it's not just about us. It's about every other country in Europe and the world.

Turkey.. want to be considered for EU membership? Sort your human rights out? Hungry, you cracking down on free press. We'll see about that. And so on.

If I disagree with a British law, does that give me the right to disobey it? Britain is funny in that we seem to think we have the right to do whatever the hell we want. Inside or outside the EU, that isn't true
Turkey is a bad example of the benefits of EU's HR charter, given the reaction to the refugee deal!
The deportation restrictions are over the top though, especially the 'right to family life'. An asylum seeker can commit a string of rapes here, but then can't be deported if he has a wife or kid here. Should deport them- you lose the right to be here then it's up to the family if they follow him back.
 
Turkey is a bad example of the benefits of EU's HR charter, given the reaction to the refugee deal!
The deportation restrictions are over the top though, especially the 'right to family life'. An asylum seeker can commit a string of rapes here, but then can't be deported if he has a wife or kid here. Should deport them- you lose the right to be here then it's up to the family if they follow him back.
Yeah don't get me wrong, sometimes it makes two sense from Sundays. I can see why they bit was written though, as I'm sure we all can... Stop certain other counties abusing their control.

Wait, how can we extradite ournown citizens to the US, but not deport foreign extremists? Sometimes the law doesn't make any fecking sense.
 
The deportation restrictions are over the top though, especially the 'right to family life'. An asylum seeker can commit a string of rapes here, but then can't be deported if he has a wife or kid here. Should deport them- you lose the right to be here then it's up to the family if they follow him back.
This is the law which most people resent. Deporting them does not prevent them from having a family life, it just prevents them from having a family life in the UK.
 
The EU is a feminist issue. I’m voting to leave

You only have to listen to the patronising, gaslighting ‘in’ campaign to know why

Julie Burchill


For decades — even before it had its name, which sounds thrilling, as words with an X in them tend to — I’ve been a Brexiter. I even mistrusted the Common Market, as we called the mild-mannered Dr Jekyll before it showed us the deformed, power-crazed face of the EU’s Mr Hyde.

The adored MP of my childhood, Tony Benn, preached against it in any shape or form. ‘When I saw how the European Union was developing,’ he said, ‘it was very obvious what they had in mind was not democratic. In Britain, you vote for a government so the government has to listen to you, and if you don’t like it you can change it.’

I’m aware that being against the EU has always been about as popular in ‘civilised’ circles as being pro-capital punishment. (Which I also am.) Imagine my delight when, in recent months, two of the contemporaries I admire most — Suzanne Moore at the Guardian and Janice Turner at the Times — wrote magnificent columns in support of Brexit. And interestingly, they took robustly feminist views of the proceedings, which is handy, because of the third of Britons undecided on how to vote on 23 June, 60 per cent of them are women.

From Britain’s dubious induction into the wretched gang by that arch-misogynist Ted Heath to Neil Kinnock’s shameful monstering of the brave Brussels whistleblower Marta Andreasen, it’s hard not to see the EU as the biggest boy’s club of all. The recent letter by the ‘Women In’ group claimed that Europe has given us equal pay and anti-discrimination laws — but countries outside the Magic Circle have those too, while inside (Ireland closest to home) are only just dragging their attitudes to women into the 20th century. We Brexiters are fighting back by pointing out that £350 million a week is blown on the EU, which could be better spent on the priorities of women voters, such as healthcare.

Women are thought to be less Eurosceptic than men — but this doesn’t indicate open-mindedness, in my book, so much as fearfulness, which is surely not to be encouraged. What has quite rightly been called Project Fear plays on the Nervous Nellie in all people, evoking anxieties about more expense and less security, as though Britain had been some sad wraith of a nation in the pre-EU 1960s instead of the robust, confident country it so memorably was.

In fact, the behaviour of the pro-EU mob makes me think of the mode of manipulation known as gaslighting — ‘a form of mental abuse in which information is twisted or spun, selectively omitted to favour the abuser, or false information is presented with the intent of making victims doubt their own memory, perception, and sanity’. Repeatedly, this small but dynamic country is told: ‘You’ll be nothing without me!’ ‘No one else will want you!’ and of course ‘You look fat in that dress.’ (See constant comparison of overweight, fun-loving Englishwomen to dull, thin French ones.)

It’s creepily similar to a bad marriage even before you bring in the German Question. Is Germany a homicidal maniac itching to start the third world war the minute we leave (those warnings that the EU has ‘kept the peace in Europe for 70 years’ — nothing to do with Nato, then?), or is it the cool-headed big brother that keeps unruly Britain in sensible shoes? It’s hard to see how it can be both.

The country is being ‘mansplained’ — another word popular with we feminists meaning ‘to explain something to someone, typically a man to a woman, in a manner regarded as condescending or patronising’ — on a massive scale when it comes to Brexit. But the mansplainers aren’t aware of how dumb they look, and how much their own desires distort their point of view.

There are lots of high-flown reasons to want to stay in the EU. But there are, I suspect, a sizable tranche of deeply uncool people who imagine that a bit of subtitled European cool might rub off on them. Emma Thompson’s recent rant about baked goods comes immediately to mind.

EU cheerleaders imagine themselves to be the repositories of French savoir faire, Italian passion and Scandi egalitarianism, but they are, ironically, generally a horribly recognisable English type — the metropolitan smuggie whose self-love is matched only by their loathing of their fellow citizens and the country that made them.

I see a stuck-in-the-mud, male-power institution that needs a good feminist kicking — and then I feel that even that would be a waste of our time, energy and pedicures. Let’s just leave them to get on with it, and go our own merry way. As every broad worth her weight in pinches of salt knows, the endgame with any gaslighter, bully or abusive spouse is not confrontation but non-engagement. Bring on the Brexit!

http://www.spectator.co.uk/2016/03/the-eu-is-a-feminist-issue-im-voting-to-leave/



My instinct is pro-Brexit (and it’s nothing to do with Boris)

Being anti-EU is not the same as anti-Europe. Voting for more of the same – male-dominated, undemocratic, unaccountable – does not appeal

Suzanne Moore


The first time I was shown around Westminster a very long time ago, by a well-loved maverick, he took me to a large gloomy room in the midst of the rabbit warren. It was full of towers of paper. “Do you know what that is? ” I obviously didn’t. “Its EU regulation. No one reads it. None ever will. One day though ...”

I did not understand then how the EU “worked”. I still don’t, except that now I see it depends on us not knowing. Much of its power rests on a deadly combination of mystification, officiousness and being so boring that most people just switch off. What we are left with, then, is instinct – a thing clever people disdain in politics but something that good politicians understand.

My instinct now is pretty Brexitty, much to the horror of many of my left/liberal friends who equate being anti–EU with being anti-Europe. This is not the same thing at all. I have not yet decided, but voting for more of the same does not appeal.

The argument that we can reform the EU (er, actually banks?) from the inside does not work. Why haven’t we? Over the past few years, the more we have seen of the actual workings of the EU, the more unattractive it appears: the troika pursuing regime change in Greece, then openly asset-stripping it. Or watching last week, as rooms full of middle-aged men fiddled around to sort the small change of a deal that Cameron could sell. It prompted me to ask: “Where are the women?” The answer I was given was Angela Merkel. As usual, my question was misunderstood – I had not asked: “Where is the one woman who makes up for it being an entirely male-dominated decision-making process?”

It doesn’t look to me like a democracy. Nor does it appear accountable. This matters. Not a single one of my pro-EU friends could name their MEP when I asked them. Maybe this pales among issues like security, workers’ rights and border control, but as a representative democracy it is sorely lacking. Now of course, this will all be overshadowed by Boris and his “personality”, after the shocking development that he will be doing what works best for his “king of the world” plan.

The points about democracy and sovereignty matter, and I am not sure that they can be smoothed over by personalities alone – whoever they belong to. The only left arguments are variations on a theme from people like Yanis Varoufakis, the former Greek finance minister who has told of witnessing “the banality of bureaucracy” – and who was told by the German finance minister that elections cannot be allowed to change the established economic policy. Nonetheless, Varoufakis thinks we should stay in and try to reform institutions that he acknowledged were set up as democracy-free zones

Jeremy Corbyn, the Labour leader, and his shadow chancellor, John McDonnell, seem unable to rouse themselves at all. An opposition party ought now to be gunning for the momentous split in the Tory party that is happening from the bottom up. Labour seems completely absent, possibly because its leaders are naturally Eurosceptic, possibly because they would rather think about Venezuela, or possibly because their media strategy consists mainly of sulking.

But there are many people like me – about a third of voters – who are undecided and open to persuasion. Yelling “Ukip” or “business” is not enough, nor is Boris’s last hurrah either. The remain crew should not take us for granted, because voting for more of the same feels awfully like the way the worst parts of the EU function: by boring us into submission. A lot of us want something that gives us a more direct connection to those who make our laws, and we won’t decide simply by choosing one Etonian over another.

http://www.theguardian.com/commenti...instinct-brexit-boris-anti-eu-not-anti-europe
 
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