City having a bottomless pit of money is relevant because they can blow £200m on just fullbacks. City would've won the league without Walker too such was the strength in depth in that squad. They have had quite comfortably the best squad in the league for a number of years now and having a limited fullback can easily be carried by the best midfield and attack in the league. They would've won a league title with a make shift fullback due their squad being comfortably stronger than the competition.
which elite team has a fullback as limited as AWB? Of course there isn't elite teams with poor midfields and attacks. Because those teams never let it get to the point where such a scenario would occur. And if it did, they wouldn't be a elite team. And a fullback being able to whip a cross in doesn't mean he's capable of being a top level fullback in attack. Theres much more to fullback play at higher echelons of the European game now, which is demanded of fullbacks in a attacking sense. The new breed of coaches like Nagelsmann and Rose who are considered two of the brightest young minds in the game, rely on their formations and strategies on attacking fullbacks/wingback due to flexibility which is very important to their game plan / tactics. The attacking fullback is a important part of a young progressive managers plans which is becoming even more obvious now. Elite teams who win elite competition don't have poor midfields or attacks that why they're elite. They also don't have limited fullbacks.
You bringing Messi up in comparison to Hazard can be discussed because both players are attackers. Bringing Messi up when discussing a fullback who is limited in attack isn't logical. I've brought up several fullbacks and not only Marcelo. Kostermann who cost Leipzig €1m and is still 23 was another along with Kimmich, Atal etc who are comfortably better as attacking fullbacks and provide tactical flexibility which is very important to a forward thinking progressive manager.
I'm hoping he'll be the understudy to Wan Bissaka before long and will get his share of games which will be good for him at this stage in his deveopment.
You don't need to be playing in better teams to display your attacking prowess at fullback, Aarons at Norwich, Atal from Nice, Doherty from Wolves are all superior to AWB in that respect and are playing for inferior teams. We've seen Wan Bissaka at Palace, with England at u21 level and currently at United with the same questions/conclusions being asked or drawn.
It’s an interesting discussion because the importance of the attacking contribution of a fullback has almost got to a point these days, where it’s outweighed the defensive ones. Especially for those fullbacks operating at the best teams, wouldn’t you say?Never understood why people compare players in this way. All players are different with different attributes and I'm sure you'd be arguing if he was all about going forward and couldn't defend? How do those same players defend? We have Dalot (when fit) looks ok going forward but it's no good if we are conceding at the other end if he can't defend. AWB is still learning his trade and if he was the best defending RB in the world in a few years, I'd take that over the best attacking one.
It’s an interesting discussion because the importance of the attacking contribution of a fullback has almost got to a point these days, where it’s outweighed the defensive ones. Especially for those fullbacks operating at the best teams, wouldn’t you say?
Theres obviously a need for a fullback to be at a very good level at both aspects, but not many fullbacks will survive at the top clubs simply because they’re great defenders, IMO. They need to provide some form of attacking outlet - be it a great delivery/set piece, or a pacier/tricky dribbler etc.
Im a big fan of AWB. So hopefully he’s still young enough to acquire the attacking prowess.
it's not about comparing players but the way football is going in the modern game. There's many on here including myself who want us to adopt such a approach and such a approach is only possible with the right personnel.Never understood why people compare players in this way. All players are different with different attributes and I'm sure you'd be arguing if he was all about going forward and couldn't defend? How do those same players defend? We have Dalot (when fit) looks ok going forward but it's no good if we are conceding at the other end if he can't defend. AWB is still learning his trade and if he was the best defending RB in the world in a few years, I'd take that over the best attacking one.
it's not about comparing players but the way football is going in the modern game. There's many on here including myself who want us to adopt such a approach and such a approach is only possible with the right personnel.
Fullbacks in the modern game are a huge weapon, not just in defense but also in attack for the likes of Klopp, Nagelsmann, Rose etc who are considered forward thinking progressive managers who rely on their fullbacks to maximize their own potential. And not one of those coaches would have a limited fullback like AWB by choice IMO for the reasons mentioned.
A fullback with the ability to play wingback gives coaches like the aforementioned more strings to their bow which is what brings the best out of them and is also the reason why they're the best in the world (Klopp) or the most sought after in Nagelsmanns case. And that is the reason I believe Ethan Laird has a very good chance of taking the RB spot over AWB due to his potential ability in said position which is a testament to our forward thinking approach at grass roots/ academy level as a club.
Sorry for the late response man. I've only logged on now. Yeah, that's fair enough and I agree with you. Just about every player who's joined us, seems to have dropped a level or 2 in their own performances as well.I think for me it's always about context. Most of the best teams in the world are the most attacking, best players in general including defensively and the best managers. We know this because a few years ago, this was us. However, when it isn't, the way we approach football games looks very different as does the players. We have one of the best midfielders in the world who came here after outstanding performances for club and country yet struggled to be consistent here. If he joins City or Liverpool tmw, he looks a different player over night and this is my point. We will not see whether AWB can add that to his game until we have a team the plays a style of football which allows for him to play that way. If we are honest, he's not alone and we have one of the best CB who can bring the ball forward, that we do not play to his strengths....
Not forgetting Jimmy Armfield for Blackpool in the '50s and our own Dennis Urwin in th '80s/'90s. Their have been many others though I can't recall names.Where do you get that it's a modern thing? I don't understand that. West Germany at their very best could send folk to sleep with their ruthless efficiency and relied time after time on their marauding fullbacks to give them an advantage.
Not forgetting Jimmy Armfield for Blackpool in the '50s and our own Dennis Urwin in th '80s/'90s. Their have been many others though I can't recall names.
I get that from people who have played, coached or observed the game at the highest level. In the below article former players like Lee Dixon and Nigel Winterburn along with Damien Commolli and a premier League scout shed light on how the role of the fullback has changed. West Germany or Brazilian having attacking fullbacks was the exception and not the norm.Where do you get that it's a modern thing? I don't understand that. West Germany at their very best could send folk to sleep with their ruthless efficiency and relied time after time on their marauding fullbacks to give them an advantage.
I get that from people who have played, coached or observed the game at the highest level. In the below article former players like Lee Dixon and Nigel Winterburn along with Damien Commolli and a premier League scout shed light on how the role of the fullback has changed. West Germany or Brazilian having attacking fullbacks was the exception and not the norm.
How full-backs became football's most important players
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/football/2017/10/13/full-backs-became-footballs-important-players/
Wenger didn't invent the wheel which is correct. And there has been fullbacks in the past who were excellent going forward and Lizarazu is a stand out in that regard and was considered among the best in the world due to his ability to dribble, expoit space and link with the attack.It's like everything else in football these days, over-analysed to death.
But there has always been fullbacks more famed for attacking than defending: John Gidman, Kenny Sansom, Stuart Pearce, Bixente Lizarazu, Alex Forsyth, Derek Statham, Phil Neal, Alan Kennedy - I could go on and on and on.
Wenger didn't invent the wheel.
Wenger didn't invent the wheel which is correct. And there has been fullbacks in the past who were excellent going forward and Lizarazu is a stand out in that regard and was considered among the best in the world due to his ability to dribble, expoit space and link with the attack.
But having listened to people who have been involved with the game past and present and also having the privilege to speak to United coaches at youth level. There has definitely been a huge systematic change in how a fullback is viewed in offensive transitions. With so many different formations now being adopted by high calibre coaches, it's imperative to have a fullback who is strong in the offensive transition for said coaches to implement their blue print onto the team. Coaches like Klopp, Nagelsmann, Poch, Guardiola and Rose, just to name some, rely on their fullbacks for width, formation change and allround flexibility to effectively influence and control games.
Rinus Michels and a few others from that particular time period influenced alot of coaches and you're right they took bits and pieces from other footballing visionaries to implement a style/system which was then evolved further by the likes of Cruyff at Barca. You then had the likes of Van Gaal who adopted the same methods at Ajax with great success with Bielsa and then Guardiola putting their own imprint on the same footballing mantra going back to Rinus Michels and the total football philosophy. But what Michels and the Dutch did in the 70s was incredible because they were so far ahead of the game, and it not only benefitted them but also spain and Germany via Cruyff and Guardiola many decades later which cements Rinus Michels as a true visionary of the .game.Remember donkey's years ago reading an article by Rinus Michels on the importance of fullbacks to control games and the ideas he'd copied from the Austrian and Magyar teams of the 40's and 50's, Cruyff took that on and tweaked it slightly, then Pep tweaked it again .... i'm still waiting for a Manager brave enough to tweak Pep's system and use a right-footer on the left, and a left-footer on the right.
I'd rather have a discussion on AWB in his thread.When you buy a player for a premium sum he should at the very least have the potential to rival other top fullbacks or have the potential to. In Wan Bissaka's case he lags behind in a attacking sense and would struggle to even be a wingback at a top European club. A fullbacks role is alot more defined now and requires a player in such a role to tick both boxes of offense and defense at the top level. And from the evidence at hand he fails quite miserably in a attacking sense in comparison to players of a similar age. Bringing Messi up to make your point won't help Wan Bissaka being better than someone like Youcef Atal in offense.
If you'd rather have a discussion about AWB in his thread, then you shouldn't respond to a post of mine from several days ago in the Ethan Laird thread.I'd rather have a discussion on AWB in his thread.
Name me a player in world football who's a better defensive full-back than AWB.
I think it'll be a toss up between Young/Williams and Laird/Williams as the fullback pair.Hope to see this kid start on the right. His last run-out was good.
Laird/Williams hopefully.I think it'll be a toss up between Young/Williams and Laird/Williams as the fullback pair.
Thing I'm not sure about is he played 90 mins on Monday and Young is included in the squad.Laird/Williams hopefully.
I'd rather have a discussion on AWB in his thread.
Name me a player in world football who's a better defensive full-back than AWB.
He also manages to score a few too. I was hoping he'd get minutes vs Colchester, I hope we give him minutes before the seasons out because he's capable of nailing down a rotational role with AWB.It’s bonkers how many assists he picks up.
Personally, I think he’ll end up replacing him eventually, he’s an outstanding talent.He also manages to score a few too. I was hoping he'd get minutes vs Colchester, I hope we give him minutes before the seasons out because he's capable of nailing down a rotational role with AWB.
I think so too, it shouldn't matter what we've paid for players but who's the better fit in the system. Coming up against the 'low block' or 'parked bus' defences, it looks as if Ole is using wing backs to have an impact in the attacking phases of play, if Laird could translate what he's done for the u19s and u23s for the first team, he'd be a big asset.Personally, I think he’ll end up replacing him eventually, he’s an outstanding talent.
He could possibly at a stretch, he knows how to get the better of his man in an attacking situation which is great to see.Can he also play as a winger?
Can he also play as a winger?
Can't wait to see him in the first team.
As good as Brandon is, Ethan is even more exciting player.
Laird is simply a better player than Williams. He’s ready to do a season as first choice in the Championship like Reece James I think. Phenomenal talent. If not for our dire LB situation, I’d say Williams could do with a season as first choice in the Championship too tbh.
Laird is simply a better player than Williams. He’s ready to do a season as first choice in the Championship like Reece James I think. Phenomenal talent. If not for our dire LB situation, I’d say Williams could do with a season as first choice in the Championship too tbh.
Why could Williams do with a season in the Championship when he's first choice for us and smashing it already in the PL?
He’s first choice for us by virtue of us having one LB. Hence why I said ‘if our LB situation was not so dire’. But it is.
His ‘smashing it’ is relative and largely contextual. Simply judging him by the standard of ‘first choice LB for Manchester United’ - his game is still full of errors. For his own personal development, he would ideally be getting a season in the Championship at this point. He may then be good enough all round to legitimately demand to be Manchester United’s first choice left back, on the basis that he can meet the standard expected of United’s first choice LB and not of the basis that he’s promising and everyone else is useless or injured.
You're being quite harsh here.
