Ethan Laird

spontaneus1 said:
Imagine the collective wisdom of the caf managing a team, would take the current Liverpool squad and endanger Derbys record.
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Wasn't there a team that did something similar? Let the fans vote and decide what the team, formation tactics were etc. GG Caf FC.
 
POF said

Williams may not seem as talented as Laird but that is a very small part of which player will have a more successful United career. Phil Neville was tipped as the more talented Neville brother in the academy. Intelligence, winning mentality, and leadership count for a lot and Williams seems to have all of the above in spades.

But until we give Laird a chance we won't know if he has that mentality
 
And as always, people can't keep up with the subject. Going in here to read about Laird and it's a nonsense discussion about Williams. Ffs.

As I have said earlier, Laird is ready for the first team imo. I find it a little odd he hasn't been involved more, especially when Ole talked about him last year. His time will come though. Question: Laird is quite physical and he has an advantage there in the youth teams when he's going forward. But how do you think he will handle that in the first team? I have small doubts about that myself. However, as I said, I think he deserves his chance soon.
 
Mickson said:
And as always, people can't keep up with the subject. Going in here to read about Laird and it's a nonsense discussion about Williams. Ffs.

As I have said earlier, Laird is ready for the first team imo. I find it a little odd he hasn't been involved more, especially when Ole talked about him last year. His time will come though. Question: Laird is quite physical and he has an advantage there in the youth teams when he's going forward. But how do you think he will handle that in the first team? I have small doubts about that myself. However, as I said, I think he deserves his chance soon.
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Ethan missed almost the entirety of the second half of last season and another 2 months this season with injuries. That set him back in terms of introduction timelines. I reckon he'd have had his debut well before now, had he not been injured. Still enough time. Very keen to see him - and he's definitely one I would much prefer to see blooded here than loaned out.
 
Mickson said:
And as always, people can't keep up with the subject. Going in here to read about Laird and it's a nonsense discussion about Williams. Ffs.

As I have said earlier, Laird is ready for the first team imo. I find it a little odd he hasn't been involved more, especially when Ole talked about him last year. His time will come though. Question: Laird is quite physical and he has an advantage there in the youth teams when he's going forward. But how do you think he will handle that in the first team? I have small doubts about that myself. However, as I said, I think he deserves his chance soon.
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If he manage to stay clear of injuries for the rest of the season I'd imagine now that Young has been sold that he'll be introduced soon and will compete with Dalot for the rest of the season. Bissaka needs a bit of rest at some point. I don't think he'll have much problems with the physical aspect going forward as he does seem to move away from players really well. Agile. Would love to see more of him soon.
 
midnightmare said:
Ethan missed almost the entirety of the second half of last season and another 2 months this season with injuries. That set him back in terms of introduction timelines. I reckon he'd have had his debut well before now, had he not been injured. Still enough time. Very keen to see him - and he's definitely one I would much prefer to see blooded here than loaned out.
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He’s made his debut already.

I don’t think Young needs to be replaced as I think Laird has fantastic potential.
 
Rozay said:
He’s first choice for us by virtue of us having one LB. Hence why I said ‘if our LB situation was not so dire’. But it is.

His ‘smashing it’ is relative and largely contextual. Simply judging him by the standard of ‘first choice LB for Manchester United’ - his game is still full of errors. For his own personal development, he would ideally be getting a season in the Championship at this point. He may then be good enough all round to legitimately demand to be Manchester United’s first choice left back, on the basis that he can meet the standard expected of United’s first choice LB and not of the basis that he’s promising and everyone else is useless or injured.
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loans are a tough call. Can only really think of 3 huge successes. Welbeck and Evans at Sunderland. And more recently Tuanzebe with villa.

invariably though we seem to send guys out for development and they tend not to play. Case in point TFM who I believe many were really excited by when he got a few games at fullback. 2 season and failed loans later and he’s dropped off a cliff.

It could be better for Laird and Williams to be training with/against Martial and Rashford everyday.

Such a difficult balance
 
stevozz said:
Wasn't there a team that did something similar? Let the fans vote and decide what the team, formation tactics were etc. GG Caf FC.
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Vaguely remember something like that in the lower leagues. It didn't go well either I dont think.
 
Rozay said:
No. Sometimes I really hate this place tbh. There is so much intentional answering of a point people feel like answering, rather than what was said.

We are where we are now. Williams is currently our best option at LB. Again. Under NORMAL CIRCUMSTANCES and I repeat for the fourth time, IF OUR LEFT BACK SITUATION WASNT SO DIRE, Williams would be spending a season on loan in the Championship now.

There is no ‘so you’re saying Williams should be loaned out’. I didn’t say he should be loaned out. We have to deal with the situation as it is, which is Williams being the first choice. He has to learn on the job, and be United’s first choice prematurely, and make all his mistakes as first choice, not with the protection of being an understudy, or developing on loan.

My point is simple, it is not ideal that Williams is currently our first choice. It’s not as if he is a young Trent. He’s a different type of player, and not the type that usually finds themselves first choice at United at 19. He could well be by 23, but he’s not as prodigious as Trent or Alaba.
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There is no under normal circumstances though, every player is different - some go out on loan, some break straight into the first team. I'd actually argue that there's a higher percentage that those who have to go out on loan don't actually make it at United vs those who break straight into the first team

And 3 years ago TAA wasn't even a young TAA, what he's done over the last 18 months/2 years is take his game to new levels from the player who made his debut at OT and then was torn apart by Rashford a year later
 
POF said:
I understand where you're coming from with this but I think you've got it backwards. If anything, it would be far easier for Williams to come into a more successful side than it is into this one.
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This side is relatively successful. United are positioned 5th in the League. If United were higher placed in the league the stakes would be higher, and the risk of playing U23s higher, the arguments for not playing Williams would be louder. It may be easier for Williams to get sub appearances in a more successful side but it would be almost impossible to justify starting him. He has 5 league starts this season.
 
Laird is the more talented but also more injury affected. I hope he’s got over those
 
dutchred said:
POF said

Williams may not seem as talented as Laird but that is a very small part of which player will have a more successful United career. Phil Neville was tipped as the more talented Neville brother in the academy. Intelligence, winning mentality, and leadership count for a lot and Williams seems to have all of the above in spades.

But until we give Laird a chance we won't know if he has that mentality
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Agree, but you can get a good impression from how he performed at youth level. Williams regularly captained the underage teams. Laird didn't.

That said, United clearly have very high hopes for Laird and he will definitely get opportunities. His injury record is problematic though. Not from the perspective that it may be a long term problem but if he's injured when his chances come, he will find it harder to break through.

Mark Pawelek said:
This side is relatively successful. United are positioned 5th in the League. If United were higher placed in the league the stakes would be higher, and the risk of playing U23s higher, the arguments for not playing Williams would be louder. It may be easier for Williams to get sub appearances in a more successful side but it would be almost impossible to justify starting him. He has 5 league starts this season.
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I still don't agree. United may be less successful now but defeats still have significant consequences. Whether United get top 4 or not this season will be huge for the club.

In a weaker team, errors are more costly. In a winning machine, a mistake is less likely to cost your team the game except in the really big games.

Williams made an error against Villa at home which cost the team points and he was immediately out of the matchday squad. The way he reacted to that and came back stronger shows great character. He's earned his starts and usurped the club captain as second choice left back on merit. Fergie would have had no issues having him as his back up left back.
 
POF said:
Agree, but you can get a good impression from how he performed at youth level. Williams regularly captained the underage teams. Laird didn't.
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I don't think that really matters considering when Williams captained the team in his 2nd year as an u18 he was the oldest player in the team & Laird was injured while Laird was also almost a year younger. Laird was also a starter for the U19s in the Uefa Youth League & played for the u23s as a 16 year old.
 
Rozay said:
I agree that he should be here now. In my first post, I stated that ‘if our LB situation wasn’t so dire, he’d be on loan now’. The fact that we have found ourselves in a position where we absolutely need him right now, and starting weekly at that, is not ideal. That’s all.

If Shaw was fit, under normal circumstances, Williams would probably be preparing to go on loan this month, at least but for Young’s departure. We’d likely want to have Shaw and Young as regular options at LB, and if that were the case, I doubt Williams would have simply forced his way past them by now. He’d likely go on loan and come back better for it. United fans are (understandably) so protective of anything young from the academy. It’s not an insult for a good 19 year old LB to go on loan. The idea is simple - he is too good for reserves, but not good enough to be a regular here yet, and we are already adequately covered in his role, as all good teams would hope to be. Let him come back ready. Unless you’re Mason Greenwood, who is one of the best in the world, and can force your way into the team on merit at 17. But it isn’t to be the norm to just keep putting kids from the academy into the first team when they are not ready to be amongst the best in their roles yet. That will naturally only lead to us not having one of the best teams.
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But why should he go on loan? If he's good enough for the squad just give him some game time. Lots of loans are shit and the kids get sidelined for a permanent player at that club anyway.
 
charlenefan said:
There is no under normal circumstances though, every player is different - some go out on loan, some break straight into the first team. I'd actually argue that there's a higher percentage that those who have to go out on loan don't actually make it at United vs those who break straight into the first team

And 3 years ago TAA wasn't even a young TAA, what he's done over the last 18 months/2 years is take his game to new levels from the player who made his debut at OT and then was torn apart by Rashford a year later
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Firstly, was a little drunk, so apologies for my tone in my message before. Read it back and it was a little rude.

And there are no normal circumstances, I agree. As @MikeKing alluded, my normal circumstances is partially to do with my assessment of Williams’ talent. Again, there are no absolutes here, I think Williams is a talented kid. Just not the type of talent where, in August, we would have been thinking ‘he needs to be pushing for a regular place this year’. The fact that he has found himself in this position has been as a result of us being forced to work our way down our list of left backs until we got to him, as opposed to us planning from the beginning of the season ‘we need to find the right time to get Williams into the first team’. This would have been the thinking with Greenwood as early as last season. It was clear that he has to be given a chance to show himself at this level, at 17! If Shaw has been mildly competent and reliable, and Young didn’t ask to move mid-season, I cannot see us thinking ‘we need to find the right opportunity to our Williams in’. That’s been my point. In all likelihood, we would have been thinking ‘we need to get him some football somewhere’ at this stage, and looked for a loan for him. Because that is about where he was. That’s not an insult. There are very few who would be justifiably forcing their way into an elite first XI at 19. I think Greenwood and Williams are not in the same class, and the rule that applies to one doesn’t to the other.

The fact that Williams is now playing weekly for us hasn’t been, in my opinion, a result of us thinking it’s the right time to put him in the first team now. Hence my comment on ‘normal circumstances’. Back on topic, I think Ethan Laird will, by way of natural progression, start getting games in our first team within the next 12 months, solely because he’s that good. Nothing to do with Wan Bissaka being that bad, or even Dalit being that injured. There will be a realisation that, at 19, we need to look for the right games to put him in for. Because of the talent he has, nothing more. If not for the issues in the first team, I think Williams would be on loan now. People need to stop taking so much offence about these kids!
 
TwoSheds said:
But why should he go on loan? If he's good enough for the squad just give him some game time. Lots of loans are shit and the kids get sidelined for a permanent player at that club anyway.
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Again, I didn’t say he ‘should’ go on loan.
 
Rozay said:
Again, I didn’t say he ‘should’ go on loan.
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But you said if the club was well run he would. Liverpool is well run and they were happy to have young defenders deputise for the first choice ones. Obviously they have to be good enough to contribute in that role but Williams is.
 
Maybe if we get to the end of the season and 4th is way out of sight we might give him some minutes.
 
TwoSheds said:
But you said if the club was well run he would. Liverpool is well run and they were happy to have young defenders deputise for the first choice ones. Obviously they have to be good enough to contribute in that role but Williams is.
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No I didn’t.
 
jb8521 said:
I don't think that really matters considering when Williams captained the team in his 2nd year as an u18 he was the oldest player in the team & Laird was injured while Laird was also almost a year younger. Laird was also a starter for the U19s in the Uefa Youth League & played for the u23s as a 16 year old.
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That's fair and it may not matter a bit. The club clearly identifies Laird as a potential future first teamer and he is clearly extremely talented.

But watching Williams play at both senior and underage level, there is a level of maturity, determination and leadership about his game that I think gives him a great chance of being able to handle the step up to senior football.

He has got the intangibles that make him seem like a "Manchester United player".
 
Rozay said:
Firstly, was a little drunk, so apologies for my tone in my message before. Read it back and it was a little rude.

And there are no normal circumstances, I agree. As @MikeKing alluded, my normal circumstances is partially to do with my assessment of Williams’ talent. Again, there are no absolutes here, I think Williams is a talented kid. Just not the type of talent where, in August, we would have been thinking ‘he needs to be pushing for a regular place this year’. The fact that he has found himself in this position has been as a result of us being forced to work our way down our list of left backs until we got to him, as opposed to us planning from the beginning of the season ‘we need to find the right time to get Williams into the first team’. This would have been the thinking with Greenwood as early as last season. It was clear that he has to be given a chance to show himself at this level, at 17! If Shaw has been mildly competent and reliable, and Young didn’t ask to move mid-season, I cannot see us thinking ‘we need to find the right opportunity to our Williams in’. That’s been my point. In all likelihood, we would have been thinking ‘we need to get him some football somewhere’ at this stage, and looked for a loan for him. Because that is about where he was. That’s not an insult. There are very few who would be justifiably forcing their way into an elite first XI at 19. I think Greenwood and Williams are not in the same class, and the rule that applies to one doesn’t to the other.

The fact that Williams is now playing weekly for us hasn’t been, in my opinion, a result of us thinking it’s the right time to put him in the first team now. Hence my comment on ‘normal circumstances’. Back on topic, I think Ethan Laird will, by way of natural progression, start getting games in our first team within the next 12 months, solely because he’s that good. Nothing to do with Wan Bissaka being that bad, or even Dalit being that injured. There will be a realisation that, at 19, we need to look for the right games to put him in for. Because of the talent he has, nothing more. If not for the issues in the first team, I think Williams would be on loan now. People need to stop taking so much offence about these kids!
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Similarly, the club had no intention of getting Rashford into the first team the year he broke through. He got a chance due to injuries to Martial, Nick Powell and Will Keane.

But, like Williams, the most important thing is how he reacted to that opportunity and he has performed so well he earned his spot.

You can't always tell how a young player will handle the step up to senior football. Talent alone doesn't guarantee success. Being mentally strong enough to take your opportunities and deal with setbacks also bodes well for being able to handle the pressure of playing at a club like United.

I have been really impressed with how Williams has handled himself this season. It's a lesson that Gomes and Chong should follow if they want to earn their spot in United's first team.

I hope Laird follows in his footsteps too.
 
POF said:
Similarly, the club had no intention of getting Rashford into the first team the year he broke through. He got a chance due to injuries to Martial, Nick Powell and Will Keane.

But, like Williams, the most important thing is how he reacted to that opportunity and he has performed so well he earned his spot.

You can't always tell how a young player will handle the step up to senior football. Talent alone doesn't guarantee success. Being mentally strong enough to take your opportunities and deal with setbacks also bodes well for being able to handle the pressure of playing at a club like United.

I have been really impressed with how Williams has handled himself this season. It's a lesson that Gomes and Chong should follow if they want to earn their spot in United's first team.

I hope Laird follows in his footsteps too.
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It still appears that people are not understanding my point. Tbh, it is almost independent of how well Williams has or hasn’t done since his debut. My point is, he would not have been a player, in my opinion, that we would have been looking to get into the first team this season, and had it not been for injuries, he would have likely gone on loan this season. Whatever Rashford’s story is doesn’t change that either. Maybe the plan was to send him on loan too had we not been forced into playing him. When you get into the team as a young player out of sheer necessity due to injuries, it doesn’t mean you had reached the point before where your club thought you are now ready to compete for a regular place. Chances are, the assessment was that you are not yet ready, otherwise you would have been introduced in a situation where the manager’s hand was not forced.

Mason Greenwood is an example of the aforementioned. No injury crisis. A deliberate decision was obviously taken that he would not be loaned, and he will instead compete in the first team. I suspect that may have also happened for Williams, but not now, maybe in a year after 20 odd Championship games, then we say ‘he’s not going on loan again this season, we want him to stay and think he’s ready to push for a place’. That is clearly the stance taken for Mason. He started the season as a 17 year old and hasn’t played a reserve match all year (maybe one or two tbh, can’t remember completely). Players were sold, and not replaced. The club clearly made a decision that he was ready.

Also, I don’t necessarily agree with the Rashford comparison anyway. He was very highly rated for years, more so than Williams. In fact, more on a level of Laird. He had made the bench months before his debut. And Nick Powell has long left us by that time!

I agree that Williams has done well in his chances. But I don’t think he’s properly cooked yet and is likely getting the level of opportunity he has gotten ahead of schedule, due to the fact he’s literally the only available LB in the squad now. Greenwood may start tomorrow fair and square ahead of James, and that was the case from our first game of the season.
 
Rozay said:
It still appears that people are not understanding my point. Tbh, it is almost independent of how well Williams has or hasn’t done since his debut. My point is, he would not have been a player, in my opinion, that we would have been looking to get into the first team this season, and had it not been for injuries, he would have likely gone on loan this season. Whatever Rashford’s story is doesn’t change that either. Maybe the plan was to send him on loan too had we not been forced into playing him. When you get into the team as a young player out of sheer necessity due to injuries, it doesn’t mean you had reached the point before where your club thought you are now ready to compete for a regular place. Chances are, the assessment was that you are not yet ready, otherwise you would have been introduced in a situation where the manager’s hand was not forced.

Mason Greenwood is an example of the aforementioned. No injury crisis. A deliberate decision was obviously taken that he would not be loaned, and he will instead compete in the first team. I suspect that may have also happened for Williams, but not now, maybe in a year after 20 odd Championship games, then we say ‘he’s not going on loan again this season, we want him to stay and think he’s ready to push for a place’. That is clearly the stance taken for Mason. He started the season as a 17 year old and hasn’t played a reserve match all year (maybe one or two tbh, can’t remember completely). Players were sold, and not replaced. The club clearly made a decision that he was ready.

Also, I don’t necessarily agree with the Rashford comparison anyway. He was very highly rated for years, more so than Williams. In fact, more on a level of Laird. He had made the bench months before his debut. And Nick Powell has long left us by that time!

I agree that Williams has done well in his chances. But I don’t think he’s properly cooked yet and is likely getting the level of opportunity he has gotten ahead of schedule, due to the fact he’s literally the only available LB in the squad now. Greenwood may start tomorrow fair and square ahead of James, and that was the case from our first game of the season.
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Maybe I am not understanding your point completely. It sounds like you are bemoaning the fact that Williams isn't yet ready to play in the first team and is only doing so due to necessity and a scarcity of options in that position?

I agree with you that the club didn't expect to play him as much this season. I also agree that he could do with developing the positional side of his game defensively. But you cannot predict the speed of a player's development and you can only pick a player when they play well enough to earn it.

United certainly earmarked Greenwood for first team football this season yet when Martial got injured in the 3rd game, he didn't come in. He wasn't ready and wasn't playing well enough. I also think the club expected Gomes, Chong and Garner to play more first team games this season but they haven't earned or taken the opportunities.

You mention Rashford being highly regarded and being on the bench earlier that season. Williams was in the squad for PSG away last season. He's clearly been earmarked as one for the future. That may not have been this season but he got his chance and took it. That's how first team careers are formed.

I think you're being harsh on him saying he's getting this level of opportunity through necessity. The club could easily have kept Young until the end of the season but Williams was ahead of him in the pecking order and earned it through his performances.

If all you needed to get game time at United was poor competition for your place, Angel Gomes would be an ever present this season.
 
POF said:
Maybe I am not understanding your point completely. It sounds like you are bemoaning the fact that Williams isn't yet ready to play in the first team and is only doing so due to necessity and a scarcity of options in that position?

I agree with you that the club didn't expect to play him as much this season. I also agree that he could do with developing the positional side of his game defensively. But you cannot predict the speed of a player's development and you can only pick a player when they play well enough to earn it.

United certainly earmarked Greenwood for first team football this season yet when Martial got injured in the 3rd game, he didn't come in. He wasn't ready and wasn't playing well enough. I also think the club expected Gomes, Chong and Garner to play more first team games this season but they haven't earned or taken the opportunities.

You mention Rashford being highly regarded and being on the bench earlier that season. Williams was in the squad for PSG away last season. He's clearly been earmarked as one for the future. That may not have been this season but he got his chance and took it. That's how first team careers are formed.

I think you're being harsh on him saying he's getting this level of opportunity through necessity. The club could easily have kept Young until the end of the season but Williams was ahead of him in the pecking order and earned it through his performances.

If all you needed to get game time at United was poor competition for your place, Angel Gomes would be an ever present this season.
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Those are all fair points, and I can’t argue with it. That said, I don’t see my own point as at all controversial. At the start of the season, Shaw and Young were expected to be our first two, Dalot can also cover, but has of course been injured too. Williams would have probably been looking at a loan, but things changed. The things that changed were a loss of availability to those ahead of him. You mention Young, but he’s 35 and cannot play every game, so the loss of Shaw (and Dalot) naturally means Williams has to come in and play too. From there on, credit to Williams, and as I’ve said a number of times, I’m not here advocating that we should loan Williams NOW. Now, he has to play, and has to continue his learning in our first team, which will mean we have to take both his attacking exuberance and his positional flaws (and rashness) on a weekly basis in the first team while he figures it out. Probably not what we’d have wanted to do, but it’s where we are now.
 
Rozay said:
Those are all fair points, and I can’t argue with it. That said, I don’t see my own point as at all controversial. At the start of the season, Shaw and Young were expected to be our first two, Dalot can also cover, but has of course been injured too. Williams would have probably been looking at a loan, but things changed. The things that changed were a loss of availability to those ahead of him. You mention Young, but he’s 35 and cannot play every game, so the loss of Shaw (and Dalot) naturally means Williams has to come in and play too. From there on, credit to Williams, and as I’ve said a number of times, I’m not here advocating that we should loan Williams NOW. Now, he has to play, and has to continue his learning in our first team, which will mean we have to take both his attacking exuberance and his positional flaws (and rashness) on a weekly basis in the first team while he figures it out. Probably not what we’d have wanted to do, but it’s where we are now.
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Absolutely, but he is still a back up. There's little doubt that if Shaw was fit for the game at Anfield that he would start.

I don't think there are many clubs in England where the 2nd choice left back has performed better than Williams this season.

Williams not having to go on loan is a major upside for both him and United. There are so many variables that can go wrong with loans. It's really difficult to find the right club and scenario that will prepare a player to play for United's first team as Fosu Mensah's loans demonstrate.

Often, they are better suited to transition the player out of the club rather than into the first team.
 
Rozay said:
It still appears that people are not understanding my point. Tbh, it is almost independent of how well Williams has or hasn’t done since his debut. My point is, he would not have been a player, in my opinion, that we would have been looking to get into the first team this season, and had it not been for injuries, he would have likely gone on loan this season. Whatever Rashford’s story is doesn’t change that either. Maybe the plan was to send him on loan too had we not been forced into playing him. When you get into the team as a young player out of sheer necessity due to injuries, it doesn’t mean you had reached the point before where your club thought you are now ready to compete for a regular place. Chances are, the assessment was that you are not yet ready, otherwise you would have been introduced in a situation where the manager’s hand was not forced.

Mason Greenwood is an example of the aforementioned. No injury crisis. A deliberate decision was obviously taken that he would not be loaned, and he will instead compete in the first team. I suspect that may have also happened for Williams, but not now, maybe in a year after 20 odd Championship games, then we say ‘he’s not going on loan again this season, we want him to stay and think he’s ready to push for a place’. That is clearly the stance taken for Mason. He started the season as a 17 year old and hasn’t played a reserve match all year (maybe one or two tbh, can’t remember completely). Players were sold, and not replaced. The club clearly made a decision that he was ready.

Also, I don’t necessarily agree with the Rashford comparison anyway. He was very highly rated for years, more so than Williams. In fact, more on a level of Laird. He had made the bench months before his debut. And Nick Powell has long left us by that time!

I agree that Williams has done well in his chances. But I don’t think he’s properly cooked yet and is likely getting the level of opportunity he has gotten ahead of schedule, due to the fact he’s literally the only available LB in the squad now. Greenwood may start tomorrow fair and square ahead of James, and that was the case from our first game of the season.
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I get what you're saying it's basically that Greenwood beat the door down to get into the first team whereas Williams kind of slipped in through the back door more out of necessity than intention.
 
jb8521 said:
I get what you're saying it's basically that Greenwood beat the door down to get into the first team whereas Williams kind of slipped in through the back door more out of necessity than intention.
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Indeed. And even with Greenwood, because it was a structured or planned introduction, we are still not in a position where we need to play him weekly. And the truth is, as good as he is, if we had to play Mason every game, we will suffer for it. He’s not the finished product yet, and is probably still at least a year away from being a genuine United regular.

With Williams, yes, he kind of slipped through, but the by-product of that, is that we will have to play him through a phase of his development that may be good for him in the long term, but not ideal for us in the short term. I’ve said before, and I like academy kids playing and all that myself, but sometimes reading this forum you get the impression that some fans prioritise these academy kids development over the team. I think that’s because we haven’t been competitive for a while, so we seek pleasures in other forms, and I accept that the youngsters can provide that.
 
POF said:
... Williams not having to go on loan is a major upside for both him and United. There are so many variables that can go wrong with loans. It's really difficult to find the right club and scenario that will prepare a player to play for United's first team as Fosu Mensah's loans demonstrate.

Often, they are better suited to transition the player out of the club rather than into the first team.
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Refreshing to read someone criticise the loan system. The usual attitude here is send them out on loan where they are expected to be the best player there. If they ain't tearing up the town they're no good for United. I think that's expecting far too much from young inexperienced players. I think loans can be good for young players provided the club play the right kind of football and the player is played at their best position. Clubs wanting loanees often only have their own interest at heart not a player's development. The whole loan situation is worse today (compared to 2/3 seasons ago) with many more clubs copying Chelsea's loan farm system. Today's Championship and League 1 / 2 clubs have far more players to chose from; often with several years experience. If you were a League 1 club manager who would you play:
  • 22 year old Chelsea (Pool, City, WHU, ...) loan army player with a couple of years experience, or
  • 18-19 year old United rookee with little experience playing against men?
 
Mickson said:
And as always, people can't keep up with the subject. Going in here to read about Laird and it's a nonsense discussion about Williams. Ffs.

As I have said earlier, Laird is ready for the first team imo. I find it a little odd he hasn't been involved more, especially when Ole talked about him last year. His time will come though. Question: Laird is quite physical and he has an advantage there in the youth teams when he's going forward. But how do you think he will handle that in the first team? I have small doubts about that myself. However, as I said, I think he deserves his chance soon.
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Based on his 2 appearances for the first team, haven't seen any evidence of that impacts him at all.
 
Mark Pawelek said:
Refreshing to read someone criticise the loan system. The usual attitude here is send them out on loan where they are expected to be the best player there. If they ain't tearing up the town they're no good for United. I think that's expecting far too much from young inexperienced players. I think loans can be good for young players provided the club play the right kind of football and the player is played at their best position. Clubs wanting loanees often only have their own interest at heart not a player's development. The whole loan situation is worse today (compared to 2/3 seasons ago) with many more clubs copying Chelsea's loan farm system. Today's Championship and League 1 / 2 clubs have far more players to chose from; often with several years experience. If you were a League 1 club manager who would you play:
  • 22 year old Chelsea (Pool, City, WHU, ...) loan army player with a couple of years experience, or
  • 18-19 year old United rookee with little experience playing against men?
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I agree. We should use the loan system very carefully. Nothing wrong with using it for certain scenarios but I think the ideal scenario for players as talented as Laid, Williams, Garner, Greenwood etc. is to integrate them with the first team. It is obvious to me that Butt and the club thinks so too. It isn't necessary to make a decision on their future that is only based on who is the bigger talent. We're talking about very young players outgrowing the U21's. Let them train with the team, be a part of the squad, get a few games and see how they develop.

The step up from there is huge, no shame in that but some take to it and some don't, that is the important part so we should give all of these players the chance to prove themselves equally. If they seem to just fit right in like Rashford and Williams it is wonderful, and if they do not manage to really impress enough on that level like Garner, Tuanzebe etc. then it would be right loaning them out, hopefully to the right club.
 
kidbob said:
Youmg Trent was better going forward but far worse defensively than Williams. Honestly TAA used to be (and somewhat still is) awful defensively. He is still patchy defensively but protected by Klopp's set up and fantastic going forward. Do you honestly believe that TAA looked better at 19 (2 years ago in a better team) than Williams looks now? He certainly isn't a better defender. Why are you comparing Trent now to Williams when you should be comparing Williams to Trent of 2 years ago? 19 year old TAA was a good talent but a liability (ask any honest Liverpool fan) and I''d wager that Williams is at the same level now as Trent was (Williams is underrated in terms of his ball ability and better natural defender). Trent didn't need a loan at 19 so why does Brandon?

Edit: because this is the Laird thread: he has the potential to be far better than both TAA and Williams. He is as talented as Greenwood.
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Good post. TAA is a beast but he was trusted and played into form in a deadly team. He’s so good going forward. I think laird and greenwood are the class acts of that age group. Williams is a good player who’s going to keep shaw out as long as he keeps going. Hannibal looks the class act in the younger players. I really do like that we are going to give kids a chance. Trust them. They aren’t going to be any worse than lingard or shaw or even pogba at this stage for one reason or another. I reckon he’s gone and this season has basically been a write off as far as he’s concerned. I hope to be proved wrong but it’s United so anything could happen really.

I really like laird. I was surprised we spent so much on AWB to be honest with him coming through. He’s a baller! Very assured player who can really play. To be fair it does show the club wants top quality competition in the squad but only if they continually keep it up to that standard for the next few years will it mean anything! Our youth is class at the minute. Trust them!
 
Ali Dia said:
Good post. TAA is a beast but he was trusted and played into form in a deadly team. He’s so good going forward. I think laird and greenwood are the class acts of that age group. Williams is a good player who’s going to keep shaw out as long as he keeps going. Hannibal looks the class act in the younger players. I really do like that we are going to give kids a chance. Trust them. They aren’t going to be any worse than lingard or shaw or even pogba at this stage for one reason or another. I reckon he’s gone and this season has basically been a write off as far as he’s concerned. I hope to be proved wrong but it’s United so anything could happen really.

I really like laird. I was surprised we spent so much on AWB to be honest with him coming through. He’s a baller! Very assured player who can really play. To be fair it does show the club wants top quality competition in the squad but only if they continually keep it up to that standard for the next few years will it mean anything! Our youth is class at the minute. Trust them!
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Laird had injury issues mostly due to him growing and playing a very physical game.

AWB was PL proven and more experienced. No reason why EL can’t be blooded now he’s matured a bit
 
Mark Pawelek said:
Refreshing to read someone criticise the loan system. The usual attitude here is send them out on loan where they are expected to be the best player there. If they ain't tearing up the town they're no good for United. I think that's expecting far too much from young inexperienced players. I think loans can be good for young players provided the club play the right kind of football and the player is played at their best position. Clubs wanting loanees often only have their own interest at heart not a player's development. The whole loan situation is worse today (compared to 2/3 seasons ago) with many more clubs copying Chelsea's loan farm system. Today's Championship and League 1 / 2 clubs have far more players to chose from; often with several years experience. If you were a League 1 club manager who would you play:
  • 22 year old Chelsea (Pool, City, WHU, ...) loan army player with a couple of years experience, or
  • 18-19 year old United rookee with little experience playing against men?
Click to expand...

Completely agree. Even if the player is successful on loan, it doesn't mean they will automatically be a success at United.

You are absolutely right on the player development. The club taking them on loan has no interest in the player's development or ensuring they learn to play the position in a similar way as they would at United.

Wan Bissaka wasn't a loan player but you can see how poorly developed his offensive game is. He needs to be better offensively at United. He didn't have to cross the half way line at Palace. That's where United sent Fosu Mensah to learn how to play right back.
 
Ethan Laird could be brought into the mufc first team set up after Ashley Young's departure. Largie Ramazani is viewed as a wildcard option to support the attack in the wake of Rashford's injury [men]
 
Adnan said:
Ethan Laird could be brought into the mufc first team set up after Ashley Young's departure. Largie Ramazani is viewed as a wildcard option to support the attack in the wake of Rashford's injury [men]
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He's definitely got the ability to step up, although you never know until they actually do how they'll adapt. Hopefully he'll take to it like Williams has.
 
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