ETH: "We want to be the best transition team in the world"

Fergie did choose counter attack as one of his many weapons. So he was not allergic to it regardless of his forwards quality. What he didnt chose was mindlessly keeping triangles and maintaining 60%+ posession for the sake of philosophy.

It's the only one that gets spoken about, disproportionately. He used counter attacking when it was on, but that wasn't even the strongest aspect of his great teams.

No one does that. Every manager goes out to try to win the game in the method he thinks will win the game best with the personnel he has.
 
It's the only one that gets spoken about, disproportionately. He used counter attacking when it was on, but that wasn't even the strongest aspect of his great teams.

No one does that. Every manager goes out to try to win the game in the method he thinks will win the game best with the personnel he has.
Mourinho made united fans allergic to conservative football because he'll relinquish initiative to the opponent even playing against championship teams in cup games.
Clearly ETH wants us to press high and build out from the back. This are the two hall marks of modern dominant football. We don't have to be Pep with 70% possession every game.
 
Because it's associated with the Ole era, but the big difference is our counter-attacks are more structured under ETH whereas under Ole it was just get it to Rashford or Greenwood as quickly as possible and hope they can do something.

It has always been and remains BS that we played a style under Ole that was centred around counterattacks, in the sense of being reliant on or scoring most of our goals in that way. At least except for his caretaker period. During the protracted period where the team was good and generally succeeded with what they were trying to do (ie, from Brunos arrival and through the 20/21 season), we generally dominated possession and scored a significant majority of our goals in established play. Against the top opponents, we were no longer playing a low block and ceding the initiative, like we did previously. We were of course very good in the transitional phase of the game, at least offensively (which is in any case not the same thing as counterattacking), but there was not more reliance on that than there is now - if anything the opposite.
 
Because it's associated with the Ole era, but the big difference is our counter-attacks are more structured under ETH whereas under Ole it was just get it to Rashford or Greenwood as quickly as possible and hope they can do something.

We are yet to do that in regular basis though. People loved talking Ole down but i remember the games against Newcastle and Brighton away few seasons ago when we played beautiful transition football with quick passing from deep area that Bruno and Greenwood scored. Now ETH has better set of players, particulary in Onana and Licha i hope we can start seeing that in regular basis.
 
This transition nonsense won't work in the PL. Saw it against Lens in pre-season, they were walking through our midfield and we only won because they're not a top side.

Today, wolves were also walking through our midfield. Mount and Bruno were too high, the entire midfield was too far apart from each other. We carry on being this 'transition' team and don't focus on possession, expect a lot more losses away from home and the big teams to spank us.
 
We are yet to do that in regular basis though. People loved talking Ole down but i remember the games against Newcastle and Brighton away few seasons ago when we played beautiful transition football with quick passing from deep area that Bruno and Greenwood scored. Now ETH has better set of players, particulary in Onana and Licha i hope we can start seeing that in regular basis.
You don't buy players like Martinez and Onana to play counter-attacking football.
 
I hope he includes defensive transitions in that because Wolves had us on toast when they broke on us. Bad finishing let them down.

If that was the Liverpool attack, we'd have had another 7 put past us seeing how easy it was to cut through us.
 
Maybe he meant transition as in get this lot to identify as women and join the ladies team. I think we’d have a chance of winning the WPL for sure
 
You don't buy players like Martinez and Onana to play counter-attacking football.

Just because we can play long ball & Counter attacking doesn’t mean we can’t hold possession.

How do you explain Onana’s long kicks to the opposition half if we just wanted to maintain possession?

We want to be able to attack through possession - but play through counter or quick transition from deep whenever the opposition attack us or we lose the ball.
 
People are still taking his quotes too literally.

He set up without a midfield and then what was blatantly obviously going to happen, happened, and he sat there and didn't change anything for 70 fecking minutes despite the fact it should have cost us the game 7-8 times over.

I wouldn't care about the quotes if they weren't being followed up by insanely dumb tactics.

We struggled last season to control games as soon as one of Erikson or Casemiro was missing, because we had no way to control the game through possession. Ten Hag's solution is to voluntarily not play one of them. I don't care if its to do with transitions or not, it doesn't make it any less stupid or damaging to the team either way.

If the set up tonight is what he's signed Mount for it's going to be a very long and miserable season.
 
Weren't Wolves a better transition team today?

It's kind of funny that we "control possession" because we have a high volume of passes between the back 5, but the opposition is actually happy to take that defending position to counter us.
 
Is he the bible now? Are we supposed to take it metaphorically?

I'm just saying wanting to be the best transition team doesn't automatically equate to being poor/awful in possession.

Liverpool under Klopp a few years ago were the best transition team in the world, but they were also very good in possession play too. They were the only side who went toe-to-toe with City in their games.
 
He set up without a midfield and then what was blatantly obviously going to happen, happened, and he sat there and didn't change anything for 70 fecking minutes despite the fact it should have cost us the game 7-8 times over.

I wouldn't care about the quotes if they weren't being followed up by insanely dumb tactics.

We didn't play well today.

If this performance is the norm, then he should be slated to no end.
 
Just because we can play long ball & Counter attacking doesn’t mean we can’t hold possession.

How do you explain Onana’s long kicks to the opposition half if we just wanted to maintain possession?

We want to be able to attack through possession - but play through counter or quick transition from deep whenever the opposition attack us or we lose the ball.
He doesn't bother even trying to control games so why has he bought them?
 
I'm just saying wanting to be the best transition team doesn't automatically equate to being poor/awful in possession.

Liverpool under Klopp a few years ago were the best transition team in the world, but they were also very good in possession play too. They were the only side who went toe-to-toe with City in their games.
Transition team is just a hipster euphemism for counter attacking side, Liverpool under Klopp are not a counter attacking side. They play on the front foot and try to outpress the opponent, as well as being really good in possession. Under ETH we are anything but that.
 
He doesn't bother even trying to control games so why has he bought them?

Ten Hag doesn’t have one specialized tactic like Pep - he adapts his tactics to his players and the opposition and the current strengths and weaknesses of a match.

This is our first game - he will look at today and see if players need to be in different or deeper positions to make this more fluid. If Rashford’s on the left today instead of Garanacho- wouldn’t we have been 5% better, more powerful or fluid or deadly?

He won’t get it right straight away - but it will build up like an arm strengthening until we are able to build consistency and power at a tempo our opponents will struggle to play against.

This won’t happen in the first game, nor I doubt the first 5.
 
Transition team is just a hipster euphemism for counter attacking side, Liverpool under Klopp are not a counter attacking side. They play on the front foot and try to outpress the opponent, as well as being really good in possession. Under ETH we are anything but that.

I agree, but it's just 1 game and we're bedding in a new system.

If we look this bad 2-3 months down the road, then I'd worry.

There's no excuses for ETH this season from me. He has to extract a greater level of performances from the team more consistently.
 
I agree, but it's just 1 game and we're bedding in a new system.

If we look this bad 2-3 months down the road, then I'd worry.

There's no excuses for ETH this season from me. He has to extract a greater level of performances from the team more consistently.
Why is he doing a LVG and changing everything completely? Why not build off of last season or just get the building blocks of this system set anyway last year?
 
Why is he doing a LVG and changing everything completely? Why not build off of last season or just get the building blocks of this system set anyway last year?

There were games last season where we used a similar system. Fred was basically playing Mount's role today. There's videos of it that were posted on here.
 
There were games last season where we used a similar system. Fred was basically playing Mount's role today. There's videos of it that were posted on here.
Which games? I don't remember that, we only played 4-2-3-1.
 
Ten Hag doesn’t have one specialized tactic like Pep - he adapts his tactics to his players and the opposition and the current strengths and weaknesses of a match.

This is our first game - he will look at today and see if players need to be in different or deeper positions to make this more fluid. If Rashford’s on the left today instead of Garanacho- wouldn’t we have been 5% better, more powerful or fluid or deadly?

He won’t get it right straight away - but it will build up like an arm strengthening until we are able to build consistency and power at a tempo our opponents will struggle to play against.

This won’t happen in the first game, nor I doubt the first 5.
Trouble is we could be 6/7 points behind City arse Newcastle by then and challenging Liverpool and Chelsea for 4th/5th
 
Transition team is just a hipster euphemism for counter attacking side, Liverpool under Klopp are not a counter attacking side. They play on the front foot and try to outpress the opponent, as well as being really good in possession. Under ETH we are anything but that.

No it isn't. And the reason it isn't can be seen in exactly the fact that Klopp's Liverpool are held up as a textbook example of a great transition team despite, as you say, not being what we would consider a counter attacking team.
 
Hope TH doesnt go on the result and looks at the performance first. Wins sometimes hide the truth. You learn more from defeat and I just hope he doesnt think dont change a winning team.
 
Trouble is we could be 6/7 points behind City arse Newcastle by then and challenging Liverpool and Chelsea for 4th/5th

Well it doesn’t mean that we lose - we got 3 points today out of an average performance.

We got to have that ability
 
Which games? I don't remember that, we only played 4-2-3-1.

Not true.

Towards the end of the season in some games, Fred was playing as a roaming 8.

There were videos literally on this website that depicted his movement and he was anything but a midfielder in a double pivot next to Casemiro.
 
Well it doesn’t mean that we lose - we got 3 points today out of an average performance.

We got to have that ability
Im hoping we sort it out before 5 games though. Hopefully with Amrabat this week at least.
 
No it isn't. And the reason it isn't can be seen in exactly the fact that Klopp's Liverpool are held up as a textbook example of a great transition team despite, as you say, not being what we would consider a counter attacking team.
You all keep using that phrase and I don't think it means what you think it means.
 
Not true.

Towards the end of the season in some games, Fred was playing as a roaming 8.

There were videos literally on this website that depicted his movement and he was anything but a midfielder in a double pivot next to Casemiro.
Fred didn't play as a roaming 8 near the end. He wasn't even playing at all.
 
We didn't play well today.

If this performance is the norm, then he should be slated to no end.

The issue is that the major problem was tactical. Leaving a big gaping hole in your midfield that the opposition can run into has absolutely bugger all to do with whether the players play well or not, apart from the fact it makes it VERY difficult for them to.

I mean to me that game panned out exactly as I'd expected to as soon as I saw our line up, because the way we set up made it impossible to control the game or protect ourselves from counter attacks...and if we set up like that again, the same thing will happen again.

I don't think it's particularly complicated or difficult to see at all, and it's very alarming to me that our manager is apparently completely oblivious to it. It's like he's had a brain transplant with Ole. If we'd lost that game like we should have, it would have been entirely on Ten Hag.

What was he expecting to happen with the team he picked? What exactly is going to change if he picks the same team next time? Mount isn't going to suddenly become a CM. He's going to run around chasing shadows like he did tonight while the opposition stroll through the big hole in the middle of our team.
 
The issue is that the major problem was tactical. Leaving a big gaping hole in your midfield that the opposition can run into has absolutely bugger all to do with whether the players play well or not, apart from the fact it makes it VERY difficult for them to.

I mean to me that game panned out exactly as I'd expected to as soon as I saw our line up, because the way we set up made it impossible to control the game or protect ourselves from counter attacks...and if we set up like that again, the same thing will happen again.

I don't think it's particularly complicated or difficult to see at all, and it's very alarming to me that our manager is apparently completely oblivious to it. It's like he's had a brain transplant with Ole.

What was he expecting to happen with the team he picked? What exactly is going to change if he picks the same team next time? Mount isn't going to suddenly become a CM. He's going to run around chasing shadows like he did tonight while the opposition stroll through the big hole in the middle of our team.
He can see it, he's going to give it a few games and hope it works. When it won't work he'll try something else. He did this a lot last season, like playing Wout Wegorst at number 10 and pushing Bruno to the wing.
 
The issue is that the major problem was tactical. Leaving a big gaping hole in your midfield that the opposition can run into has absolutely bugger all to do with whether the players play well or not, apart from the fact it makes it VERY difficult for them to.

I mean to me that game panned out exactly as I'd expected to as soon as I saw our line up, because the way we set up made it impossible to control the game or protect ourselves from counter attacks...and if we set up like that again, the same thing will happen again.

I don't think it's particularly complicated or difficult to see at all, and it's very alarming to me that our manager is apparently completely oblivious to it. It's like he's had a brain transplant with Ole. If we'd lost that game like we should have, it would have been entirely on Ten Hag.

What was he expecting to happen with the team he picked? What exactly is going to change if he picks the same team next time? Mount isn't going to suddenly become a CM. He's going to run around chasing shadows like he did tonight while the opposition stroll through the big hole in the middle of our team.

What line-up did you want to see out there?

As for the bold: We bought Mount to play him higher up the field closerto Bruno. We didn't buy him to play him in a double pivot next to Casemiro.
 
Fred didn't play as a roaming 8 near the end. He wasn't even playing at all.

I mean you can keep thinking I'm lying, but there were videos on here depicting his movement and he wasn't playing in a double pivot role.

I can't find the video analysis, but I specifically remember being surprised he opted to use him in that role.
 
You all keep using that phrase and I don't think it means what you think it means.

Given Klopp's Liverpool are typically held up as a/the definitive example of what people mean when they talk about transition teams, it seems like you're the one who doesn't understand what this particular "hipster euphemism" actually means.
 
I can see what Ten Hag is thinking. I think his idea would work if we were able to basically consign the opposition to their own half like city and arsenal do. That way you don’t have the big gaps behind Mount and Bruno because our team is pushed high up and boxes the opposition in. The problem we have is we’re not very good at cohesive pressing and we’re not very good at recycling and retaining the ball or boxing teams in. We also have very poor ball carriers in our team, something which City, Arsenal and Liverpool of yesteryear have/had and that again helps them retain the ball and camp teams in. Ten Haag basically appears to be trying to get the team to fly before it can walk. I think a Pep, Klopp, Arteta or Poch could work this system with that midfield. I’m not so sure Ten Hag is at their level to do the same…. Not yet anyway.
The issue is that the major problem was tactical. Leaving a big gaping hole in your midfield that the opposition can run into has absolutely bugger all to do with whether the players play well or not, apart from the fact it makes it VERY difficult for them to.

I mean to me that game panned out exactly as I'd expected to as soon as I saw our line up, because the way we set up made it impossible to control the game or protect ourselves from counter attacks...and if we set up like that again, the same thing will happen again.

I don't think it's particularly complicated or difficult to see at all, and it's very alarming to me that our manager is apparently completely oblivious to it. It's like he's had a brain transplant with Ole. If we'd lost that game like we should have, it would have been entirely on Ten Hag.

What was he expecting to happen with the team he picked? What exactly is going to change if he picks the same team next time? Mount isn't going to suddenly become a CM. He's going to run around chasing shadows like he did tonight while the opposition stroll through the big hole in the middle of our team.
Funny but that’s what I was thinking. It’s the sort of thing that happened in Oles reign most weeks. All of us can see a problem but he couldn’t. Rinse repeat every week. We’re the unqualified thickos online, he’s the millionaire and yet we know more than him. Thankfully ten Hag hasn’t hit those heights yet (although that Weghorst business was close) but this is now game three (I think) where it has been exposed heavily. If it’s the same Sunday we have a problem…
 
Our system is called "The Two Brunos".

One was good, two will be awesome!
 
Ten Hag doesn’t have one specialized tactic like Pep - he adapts his tactics to his players and the opposition and the current strengths and weaknesses of a match.

This is our first game - he will look at today and see if players need to be in different or deeper positions to make this more fluid. If Rashford’s on the left today instead of Garanacho- wouldn’t we have been 5% better, more powerful or fluid or deadly?

He won’t get it right straight away - but it will build up like an arm strengthening until we are able to build consistency and power at a tempo our opponents will struggle to play against.

This won’t happen in the first game, nor I doubt the first 5.
I get your point but even then it doesn't look good on him and the team to have a wolves side dominate the ball and be better on it than us that too at our own home. Last 5 minutes was a total car crash