giggs-beckham
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No he said transitionIf he said he wanted us to be a counter attacking side I could get the post, but he didn't so you don't make any sense
No he said transitionIf he said he wanted us to be a counter attacking side I could get the post, but he didn't so you don't make any sense
Yep, ETH is all about quick and vertical positional play. The biggest difference with Ajax is that the players there did it using very strict patterns of the progression of the ball and their movement with and without it. Here at United it seems he is willing to use more the individual quality of the players for such goals. The biggest risk wich Ten Hag is obviously ready to take is that United will not be all about the control of the game, instead it will thrive on the chaos on the pitch. Its a big risk imho lets see how it goes..
A lot of us were saying last season that we hoped and expected to see us being better in possession in season 2. And that to an extent he was working with the players he had which were bought under a counter attack mindset.Very good point, I said the exact same thing in the Lens match day thread yesterday, i.e we don't seem to have much control of the ball in midfield. But the game itself was really enjoyable and I had fun watching us play. It is also a risk as you say, particularly against the big teams and away from home where we simply have to have some control of the ball in midfield.
You think real Madrid are a counter attacking team? I know some RM fans who would slap you for that.
Casemiro isn't "loose" in possession. He isn't elite like Rodri or Busquets but he's very good. The problem is he doesn't have many passing options because he plays between defensive formation and offensive formation, which are two separate beings as neither of Mount / Bruno really help that much in the buildup / defensively. They do a lot of running but their starting position is so high it effectively leaves Case on his own.I said this repeatedly in Mount's transfer thread. I was hoping EtH would play him deeper but the suggestion was we'd play two attacking 8s pushed high and I was not a fan of this idea. In my opinion, its too risky especially with how loose Casemiro is in possession.
I said that one of the reasons we were on the end of some spankings last season was because of how we played and we probably will be on the end of a couple this season too.
I believe we don't have the players to cover the gaps that would be left open. We don't have a Walker, VVD or Saliba who can pretty much close spaces left open behind. Peak Varane could but he doesn't have that pace anymore. To play this style effectively, you need a 1 or 2 truly remarkable strong and athletic players and we don't have that in our back four or midfield.
If a team sits back you are then are able to press further forward. We want teams to sit back, who wants teams attacking them?Casemiro isn't "loose" in possession. He isn't elite like Rodri or Busquets but he's very good. The problem is he doesn't have many passing options because he plays between defensive formation and offensive formation, which are two separate beings as neither of Mount / Bruno really help that much in the buildup / defensively. They do a lot of running but their starting position is so high it effectively leaves Case on his own.
Back to the topic. Being a "transition team" is fine as long as the opponent plays this game. What happens if they sit back and force us into possession / buildup game? I saw this yesterday in first half and it looked like Lens were the team playing quick transition football because we had no clue what to do with the ball and lost it many times in dangerous areas.
Well yeah, he just said, “Real Madrid fans”.They sound like twats.
Well yeah, he just said, “Real Madrid fans”.
I might be wrong but as I understand it the main difference is that in a counterattacking team your forward line is barely outside your box with maybe a CF near the middle. So you create attacks with your forwards in your own box and must wait for others to join, and break all their lines to attack.Is there any difference between a "counter attacking" style and a "transition" style?
There's nothing wrong with being a counter attacking side in my eyes but is there any differnce?
Being a top transition team is a team dominating gamesI would have thought he would be more obsessed with us being able to control games and dominate teams, pinning them back. It was a big weakness for us last season and a common strength for teams that have challenged for the title in the past 5 years.
I would have thought he would be more obsessed with us being able to control games and dominate teams, pinning them back. It was a big weakness for us last season and a common strength for teams that have challenged for the title in the past 5 years
I would have thought he would be more obsessed with us being able to control games and dominate teams, pinning them back. It was a big weakness for us last season and a common strength for teams that have challenged for the title in the past 5 years. We’ve always been good at transitions, we can do it in our sleep.
No it isn’tBeing a top transition team is a team dominating games
How is it not? It’s winning the ball back quickly with pressing and counter pressing. It’s basically quick turnovers. It’s Klopp Liverpool or the late 2000 EPL teams when playing home legs in the CLNo it isn’t
So counter attack footballHow is it not? It’s winning the ball back quickly with pressing and counter pressing. It’s basically quick turnovers. It’s Klopp Liverpool or the late 2000 EPL teams when playing home legs in the CL
What do you think it is?
If a team sits back you are then are able to press further forward. We want teams to sit back, who wants teams attacking them?
We see it during Klopps reign at Anfield, the midfield didn’t have a creative spark between them but the bullied and harassed teams into not getting out and buried them in their own box
Those terms don't have some sort of industry standard definition that everybody subscribes to. As you see it in here, even the word transitional team creates multiple understandings. So bringing up another abstract term like "dominating" will not help the debate.Being a top transition team is a team dominating games
Good point. To me, I've seen it as an ever ongoing cycle. A teams becomes compact and hard to beat. It starts to develop capabilities of strong counter attacks and will jump up the table because it is difficult to score against them and easy to receive a counter. The longer this is ongoing, opposition will adapt and don't give opportunities to counter. It forces the team to increase capabilities on the ball, players who are better in possession are brought in. Oppo teams are sitting deeper and deeper to adapt until there comes a point, where the team itself gets overly vulnerable to counters itself.The reality is that the teams who have been challenging for the title have been excellent both in possession and in transition. It isn't an either/or or opposite sides of some spectrum, they're complementary strengths and you need to be good at both.
This sounds a little to direct in my ears. As I said, opposition teams will adapt to you, when you are good on transition, teams will sit back and allow you more time on the ball focussing on keeping it tight themselves. You are right though, Liverpool where up there possession wise even though they were known for a more transitional style.And being strong in transition helps you dominate teams and pin them back, as Liverpool found when they became the best transition team on the planet and (not coincidentally) their average possession increased season on season. We didn't think of them as a possession team but they were still averaging more possession than everyone in the league bar City.
This will be interesting indeed. To bring up another aspect, I wonder how much of this "want to be best transition team" is based on the fact, that the teams current best players, Rashford and Bruno are more or less designed for this style (critics might even say exclusively for this style...). I wonder, if going more transitional isn't more of a reaction than an actual action or decision of the manager. I just hope, that we will find a good way to be more consequential. What I noted last year, was that even though we had a big tendency to just release it into space for Rashford to run on to, especially Bruno (who is really good at it), we still weren't good in being somewhat compact through-out the team. And this was visible in this pre season again (at least I thought I've seen it). Defense and Attack are often too far apart, which then makes it nightmare for any midfielder to play there because they are too often on their own and outnumbered.All the quote tells us is that the main focus right now is maximising our ability in the transition aspects of the game. But that doesn't mean we don't also want to get stronger in possession, or that we won't even this season. It wouldn't be at all surprising if we dominated posssesion more this season than last, and more so again next season all going well.
That would really be revolutionary. Running counter attacks without the ball would definitely shock our opponents.We want to be a possesion based team that can counter attack as soon as we lose the ball.
We will take risks with our passes - like Bruno to Garanacho yesterday because we can both attack whilst holding possesion & attack when counter attacking by having defenders that win the ball(Casemiro/Wan Bissaka/Varane) & players that can create with the ball on their feet (Onana, Martinez, Mount, Bruno £ Hojlund).
We have seen 12 months of Ten Hag football where we have suffered losses against top sides away from home because of his mindset not to change how we play.So counter attack football
To a small minded person yesSo counter attack football
Even under Fergie we were never a purely possession based team, probably his best trait as a manager, being able to adapt to different opponents and to the squads he had. Good to know that Ten Hag is flexible as well.Personally I don't care if we play transitions, possession or counter attacking football, as long as we score goals, don't concede many, win games and trophies, that's all that really matters
We use to rip teams apart by counter attacking under fergie. Tevez-Rooney-Ronaldo was an insane front 3 for that.Even under Fergie we were never a purely possession based team, probably his best trait as a manager, being able to adapt to different opponents and to the squads he had. Good to know that Ten Hag is flexible as well.
And those were the best front three in the world capable of performing in any kind of playstyle. And yet Fergie chose counter attack.We use to rip teams apart by counter attacking under fergie. Tevez-Rooney-Ronaldo was an insane front 3 for that.
And what led to this was that teams weren't able to perfectly set up for us because nobody knew how we would play on any given day. As somebody said, we have been capable on the counter, as every top team is (should be, without it, you can't really be a top team) but also were dangerous with the ball. The issue these days is, it doesn't look as if we would be too capable with the ball.We use to rip teams apart by counter attacking under fergie. Tevez-Rooney-Ronaldo was an insane front 3 for that.
Counter attack isn't really an issue and can very effective with certain players.
Need to match the squad's strength with tactics on the pitch. Proof:
We were good at counters doesn't mean it was the hub of our play under Fergie. Our counter opportunities were in transition like getting the ball back after opponents' corner kicks. Far from having it be the playstyle. Even Pep's City were great at counterattacks before PL teams realized overcommitting led to humiliating scorelines. It doesn't however mean they are a defensive counter team. Controlling games and being good at counters were never opposites. I don't see ETH setting up to surrender possession to bottomhalf sides like Jose or even Ole.And those were the best front three in the world capable of performing in any kind of playstyle. And yet Fergie chose counter attack.
As someone else said in another thread, that's far to sensible a comment for this forum!We overthink football way too much. At the end of the day we want entertaining football that wins us games, who cares how it happens?
The bookies have us in fourth? Who are second and third, just out of interest?This is probably a key quote in terms of how we can expect the team to develop this season. Emphasis on transition, not possession.
Having always been a dangerous team on the counter, that in effect means the primary area we should be seeing improvement this season is in our pressing and counter-pressing.
Of course strength in transition and possession aren't mutually exlusive, but rather complementary. Klopp's Liverpool were known for their strength in transition but in their best years were still only second to City in terms of average possession in the PL. And of course City while being seen as a possession side are excellent in transition. The best teams are elite in both regards, with one aspect aiding the other. And with our team being far from the finished article, we can expect further development beyond this season. There's a reason the bookies have us finishing fourth this season, nobody expects us to be the finished article yet.
But for this season the "we want to be the best transition team in the world" quote is probably telling in terms of how we should judge stylistic improvements. And this aligns with our transfer business and team shape, with the addition of Mount (whose biggest strength is his off the ball work) and the younger, hard-working Hojlund in advanced areas no doubt giving us the personnel to improve.
The bookies have us in fourth? Who are second and third, just out of interest?
Echo this sentiment. I’m happy as long as it is entertaining. Which entails scoring loads of goals, not conceding and importantly be comfortable with the ball and not treat it like hot potato. Don’t care for any other stats.Personally I don't care if we play transitions, possession or counter attacking football, as long as we score goals, don't concede many, win games and trophies, that's all that really matters