Ole ball was just throwing players out there and hoping they work it out.
ETH: "We want to be the best transition team in the world"
- Thread starter sullydnl
- Start date
Imagine Onana passing* Garnacho Rashford and Højlund running at you with pace
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tucking the balls from front to back.
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It works if you have incredible attacking players, but we don't have that. Barring Marcus we need another player who can score 20 plus goals.
It works if you have incredible attacking players, but we don't have that. Barring Marcus we need another player who can score 20 plus goals.
It's the same shape City, Arsenal and Liverpool seem to be taking up and it's sort of inherent in it that that your #8s being that advanced would indeed leave your DM isolated. That's why you get defenders moving into central areas alongside the DM to provide the extra support needed. Be it Stones at City, TAA at Liverpool or whoever at Arsenal (Zinchenko? Timber?).
In other words it's less that you should be worried about the two #8s leaving Casemiro exposed and more that you should worry about any deficiencies in the support he gets from our back four leaving him exposed.
Nothing alike at all.
What was wrong with that style? I wonder why you don’t support another team. You hardly have anything good to say about United. About any past or current United team, about Rashford, you also have completely wrong perceptions about other teams compared to United, as you just assume they (latest example Bayern/Kane) don’t pay high wages, etc. Also only yesterday your post that De Jong is at Barca because of their name and Xavi (yep, absolutely nothing to do with his insane salary)… so many of your posts about United are filled with negativity, such a sunshine you are.I think we will need better attacking players ever position (no idea about our new striker though).
Also it's about depth of play, if all you are good at is transition, and you can't keep and work the ball, you are in trouble.
What kind of football doesn’t work?
That's why we have to be better on the ball. Something I know he will be working very hard on. But there are lots of advantages to playing with two advanced 8s. That's why quite a few of the top teams are following City's lead.
Also, the idea is for either your CB or fullback to step into midfield to offer protection. It's not as if the DM is left on his own.
This is the way I’ve seen the teams style evolve over the past season. Possession is defiantly a tool at our disposal and we want it, but counter pressing and direct attacks seem to be our main strengths, which makes sense when you look at the players we have. I think our strategy will be to recycle the ball in our half using Onana, Martinez, Shaw etc and drawing teams on to us before initiating direct attacks with the likes of Bruno, Rashford, Garnacho etc to exploit the space we have opened up in the final third. I don’t think it’s too dissimilar to how Klopp used to utilise Salah and Mane.
Which is why they are now going on about Stones being changed into a midfielder because City have signed a new CB. Stones is good on the ball. People on here were screaming for him to move Licha into the DM position, well he is to some extent, just not the whole game, but when necessary.
Did I dream Liverpool winning and competing for both those things? God I hope I did.
Agreed and it's what concerns me the most. We're very good at playing the ball out from the back, however as soon as we get into the oppositions half it feels like we're relying on Bruno laying a Hollywood pass to a runner of the last man.
I feel like we'll concede less and control games more but still won't score enough.
He had 8 goals and 5 assists for his last seasons despite literally not having a number 9 to play off of or provide to?
The man is fantastic at keeping the ball in his possession in the final third and allowing us to build attacks from there. It’s because he isn’t a tricky winger pinning down FBs and swinging cross after cross in from the byline then fans can’t see what he does do. I’m not even saying he’s a great player, I’m saying fans aren’t criticising him for what he isn’t doing on the pitch because they don’t know what he’s trying to do.
His work rate and pressing will be clearer as well as the season goes on, he won’t be asked to play up and down as he was last season but that’s for him to show
Firstly it's been a long time since we had anything to be positive about at United.
I not attacking our previous style, it just doesn't work today, that's why teams play differently.
Yes I think Rashford is overrated.
I was wrong that Bayern don't pay that level of wages, so what?
Of course De Jong cares about the Barcelona name and Xavi, suggesting otherwise would be moronic.
I just don't like rose tinted glasses.
Real Madrid win multiple leagues and CLs in recent times by being a counter attacking team who plays a lot deeper than other top sides
Yea I agree. I'm also not sure how this midfield will hold up against a top top side.
Turns out. Hoof to Fellaini was a decent strat to create chances.
We did it quite well under Ole. Actually, I specifically remember Pep saying we were the best transitional side in the world. ten Hag has come in added his own ingredients, which has not only made us better on the ball, but a lot better off it, too.
There's nothing like a good counter attack, and we have the players for it.
We still struggle breaking down low blocks, but that's hopefully something that will come in time, and hopefully the introduction of Hojlund will help.
There's nothing like a good counter attack, and we have the players for it.
We still struggle breaking down low blocks, but that's hopefully something that will come in time, and hopefully the introduction of Hojlund will help.
You think real Madrid are a counter attacking team? I know some RM fans who would slap you for that.
CL is hard to judge because so much comes down to luck in a knockout competition. It's not like the Inter side who made the last final were some perfect team.
But in terms of the PL absolutely. That's why so many people have been pointing out that we're not likely to challenge City this season and why the bookies currently have us finishing fourth. We were always more than one season away from seriously competing to win the league.
The hope is that we do improve to become a vicious team in transition this year and end the season thinking we're a few key signings from making the nect big step in level up next season.
The Liverpool example is better than the Ole one: Ole's football revolved around lightning transitions (that 5-1 or whatever it was in the champions league) but we struggled to look technically competent. Liverpool a few years back were so quick in their aggression and movement but had a much better hold of games and could dominate and breakdown defensive teams as well.
The "United way" stuff is just window dressing. That's not the actual reason we're playing as we are. Ten Hag is a pragmatist (in the real sense of the word, rather than the "plays defensive football" way that football pundits like to use it for some reason) who wants to find the best way to win with the players that he has.
When your best players are Fernandes, Casemiro, Rashford etc, the way to win with them is to play more direct, and it looks like we're already doing that with more structure and control than we were under Ole/Mourinho etc. We also now have the players in the back five to knock accurate long passes to runners or play out patiently as the situation calls for.
If we're good enough in possession to beat the shite, and good enough in transition to beat the better sides, we'll go far. That's pretty much been Real Madrid's model for a good few years now, Liverpool's when they were winning a couple of pots, and City were more like that last year than before as well (Arsenal had 64% possession against them and lost 3-1, Bayern had 56% and lost 3-0).
Their games against Barca pretty much mirrored our games against City in the Ole era iirc.
Yes, they cede a lot of ground and play from a deeper base.
Your RM supporting friends are obviously talking shit to you
https://amp.marca.com/en/football/real-madrid/2022/01/14/61e1c5ff22601da1418b4572.html
https://m.timesofindia.com/sports/f...r-attacking-play/amp_articleshow/88917608.cms
That was forced though, they simply couldn't compete any other way.
Liverpool under Klopp are probably a good model to have in mind given the similar transition-first focus they had.
17/18 - 4th in the league, 4th for possession, CL run (made it to the final).
18/19 - 2nd in the league, 3rd for possession, won the CL.
19/20 - 1st in the league, 2nd for possession, CL last 16.
Effectively we're hoping to be where they were in that 17/18 season. As in not really good enough to seriously compete for the league, not dominating possession as much as we'd ideally like, but strong and incisive enough in transition to be a serious threat at CL level knockout competition.
Key point: Liverpool were second only to City for both goals and xG that season and third for xGA, despite finishing 4th. In other words the underlying signs that they had progressed and could make another step up the following season were there. That's where we should want to be at the end of this season.
Then in the following seasons they became more possession dominant while still being lethal in transition and were actual competitors for the league.
17/18 - 4th in the league, 4th for possession, CL run (made it to the final).
18/19 - 2nd in the league, 3rd for possession, won the CL.
19/20 - 1st in the league, 2nd for possession, CL last 16.
Effectively we're hoping to be where they were in that 17/18 season. As in not really good enough to seriously compete for the league, not dominating possession as much as we'd ideally like, but strong and incisive enough in transition to be a serious threat at CL level knockout competition.
Key point: Liverpool were second only to City for both goals and xG that season and third for xGA, despite finishing 4th. In other words the underlying signs that they had progressed and could make another step up the following season were there. That's where we should want to be at the end of this season.
Then in the following seasons they became more possession dominant while still being lethal in transition and were actual competitors for the league.
We are one of the best transition teams in the world and have been for a while. That is very low on the list of things we need to work on.
That isn't what he says in the quotes where he specifically talks about how United have traditionally played is it? It's something you've invented entirely by yourself and are now being sarcastic about for some reason.
When we were winning the league most years players would still get criticised exactly the same. Nani got as much if not more shite than Antony gets. So don't buy that at all
My big concern in pre season is whenever ETH has his preferred 11 on the pitch, it doesn't have a midfield, and we just get cut through with ease every single time we lose the ball, which is often because we have no midfield so have to play percentage balls.
These comments about being overly concerned with transition kind of explain it and it's concerning me.
It's no good being the best team in the world at transition if it means letting every opponent run at your back 4 every 2 minutes.
They don't. The quotes he's banging on about how we used to play. He's literally talking about us going backwards.
I don't want to hear our manager concerning himself with stuff that is at best completely irrelevant.
Which is exactly what my concern is, because it is what will very obviously happen.
Every time we lose the ball the opposition have 1 player to beat to get at our centrebacks, and about 80 yards of space to play with in order to do it...and we will be losing the ball a lot because every other pass will have to be either a punt up the pitch or final ball.
This was the entire first half today. Yeah it's only a friendly but neither Mount or Fernandes are going to magically transform into a central midfielder by next weekend.
Really not getting how this is worth it for 2 nice counter attacks a half.
There are only a few players capable of doing that role by themselves and luckily, Casemiro is one of them.
You need to be good in possession as well. Not the best, we wont be better than City anyway, but you need to be able to keep the ball for periods. I have said this 5 years ago and it is still valid today. If you lose your head and cant keep the ball in pressure situations, you wont win titles, no matter how good you are in transition. That is our biggest weakness for more than a decade now.
Liverpool and Real were great sides in transition years ago, but also great sides in possession (not the best, but still pretty good could keep the ball and play out of a press on a consistent basis). We cant.
Liverpool and Real were great sides in transition years ago, but also great sides in possession (not the best, but still pretty good could keep the ball and play out of a press on a consistent basis). We cant.
He is if he can get close to them but he’s not the quickest. If he’s bypassed he has to rely on last ditch tackles and let’s be honest it causes him to get a yellow most games.
It appears that people are getting the wrong message. Systems abound and they all have their limitations, the important thing is that we actually have a goal set now and we can measure and implement measures that aid us towards that goal.
Really happy with Ten Hag so far.
Really happy with Ten Hag so far.
Nobody is arguing that you don't need to be good at both. You absolutely do and we will absolutely need to improve in possession to compete with City for league titles.
But we're not going to be competing with them for the league this year. And for this season, as with Klopp's earlier seasons, it's fine for the primary focus to be on making ourselves as vicious as possible in transition. As with Liverpool the greater control in possession can follow.
But it's good for us as fans to go into the season knowing that's what stylistic progress should look like this year.
That's true, I'm hoping the experience of Premier league refs has helped him mould his game a little. Another player that can do that role by himself but has the speed, is Caicedo. I really hope we break the bank for him next summer, or January if possible.
Good ...its my favourite type of ball and something we are actually really fecking good at.
This is very disappointing to me. I hate defensive football, and I hate football that cedes anything to the other team.
Nothing he said implies any of that.