ESPN - Why Manchester United are still a mess under INEOS ownership

HTG said:
You’re sitting at thirteenth, had no real new manager bounce, screwed up yet another transfer period and are now in the process of cutting Christmas bonuses to your normal employees, so you can pay out your expensive dof, who was fired a few months after being hired.
That looks disastrous to me.
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I mean you talk about ‘weak shit’.. read this back.

1) What does current league position matter when you are aware this is the start of a new project

2) New manager bounce? Again what relevance is this. Do you not rate Amorim?

3) Christmas bonus reduction. That makes terrible owners?

4) Sacking Ashworth - how much is this costing then? I’ve not seen the figures but I’m aware it’s less money doing it now than it would of been beyond the 6 month probation period.
 
NZT-One said:
Just as "stupid" as indicating somebody spreads misinformation. The other poster has a point on that.

I think, you are overstating the meaning of those things. As others have pointed out, the club has been bloated and made use of - big salaries for next to nothing in return for players, big money actions higher up while failing on the pitch leaving the impression that the business side of the club is almost separated from the football team. From what you hear, way more staff than comparable clubs while at the same time still lacking in output and performance. A new management needed to step in to stop this bleeding. I am fairly sure, even Saudi or Qatar would have done so. I agree with you, I would be livid when my christmas bonus is taken away while watching expensive mistakes higher up unfold. No question but it doesn't matter in the big picture unfortunately. If too many of them are unhappy, I am pretty sure the management is ready to say goodbye to them as it will be able to find new ones. Thats not me saying this is good, or ideal or whatever, but it is what it is. And this is the mindset, our competitors running under as well.
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I said they are believing the tabloid narrative being driven.

Not sure where the misinformation spreading came from.
 
With regards the Christmas bonus, I have got to say, as a minimum wage employee and the boss puts £100 on top of your full time wage, once the tax man has had his share you would be lucky to see 40 quid extra on that total line on pay day. Even more so if you do changing shift patterns and hours worked weekly because it sends your tax pattern off for a few weeks sometimes longer.

In that sense, it's a few quid lost to staff, not subject to tax and saves the club too.

As far as the ticket pricing is concerned. The tickets aren't being raised in price, these are hospitality tickets separate from the members tickets, they can sell for £150+

Closer to the game if any hospitality is left, they get the members discount in previous seasons. Instead they are just lowering those prices to £66. It sucks but Liverpool and City have both done similar this season and had protests around the decision.
 
Champ said:
I disagree with this entirely.

Cost cutting is happening from the top down, staff size has been reduced, new contracts will be more thought out than previously, transfer spending will undoubtedly be more prudent.
People can't be expected to get things the same in a failing business just because their costs are reduced, that's not how businesses work unfortunately.
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That’s true. But if you want cost cutting measures to work, which to me means that they are somewhat accepted (obviously no one will be happy about it) by the staff you depend on to right the ship, the way you do it matters a lot. And the optics of having your billionaire owner cutting Christmas bonuses after wasting millions with a failed appointment are really bad. To me, the smart thing would have been to do all you can to keep these bonuses in place, if necessary by paying out of your own pocket. That way you can actually increase your credit with the staff and have more acceptance for other measures.
 
The holy trinity 68 said:
Who cares if random people we have never met are losing out on £60 of a christmas bonus.

Its funny how other clubs can hike up ticket prices or charge obscene amounts for season tickets, or cut staff bonuses and you don't even see or hear a word.

United do a few of these things and the entire football world goes into a frenzy, making out like Sir Jim is Satan.

Rival fans truthfully don't care either but are pretending they care about the staff, they just want an excuse to shit on the club.
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Good lord you must be fun at parties.
 
HTG said:
Could be. But the reality is that things could very well stagnate or get even worse. And so far, the new ownership doesn’t give me reason for confidence. And stuff like this Christmas bonus, small as it seems, is a red flag for me, personally. Because I do believe that the atmosphere at your club isn’t that good. Treating your staff like that, seems like blind action for the sake of it to me and bears the potential for worsening the situation.
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We are outsiders so we don't know unless we have anyone posting who works there. Christmas bonuses being reduced is obviously not nice, but people still there will, or at least should, look at all those who have been let go recently and realise why it has happened. I'm sure everyday staff moral isnt great though, companies downsizing staff are never nice environments.

Time will tell with INEOS, but fans are onside as they are making noise about fixing things fans have been calling out for for years, as per the list that @TheReligion posted further up.
 
TheReligion said:
I said they are believing the tabloid narrative being driven.

Not sure where the misinformation spreading came from.
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You said that he shouldn't believe everything he reads. I am sure you meant this more as a general remark but I can see why the other poster thought it was specific to the things he listed. And you didn't make it clear even after he made you aware of it.

(this is not me trying to tell you are a horrible person, but in this instance the other party has a point)
 
NZT-One said:
You said that he shouldn't believe everything he reads. I am sure you meant this more as a general remark but I can see why the other poster thought it was specific to the things he listed. And you didn't make it clear even after he made you aware of it.

(this is not me trying to tell you are a horrible person, but in this instance the other party has a point)
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I am a horrible person so it is okay :angel:

That poster I feel is being disingenuous anyway.
 
HTG said:
That’s true. But if you want cost cutting measures to work, which to me means that they are somewhat accepted (obviously no one will be happy about it) by the staff you depend on to right the ship, the way you do it matters a lot. And the optics of having your billionaire owner cutting Christmas bonuses after wasting millions with a failed appointment are really bad. To me, the smart thing would have been to do all you can to keep these bonuses in place, if necessary by paying out of your own pocket. That way you can actually increase your credit with the staff and have more acceptance for other measures.
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Not sure it works like that. There have been people let go. The bonus most like wasn't seen as some sort of happy suprise but something that was about to happen. Sure, it did piss off people, would have pissed me off as well but I am pretty sure had the bonus remained untouched, it wouldn't have bettered the situation for people who expected that bonus anyway and had to say good bye to colleagues.
 
Trophy Room said:
Sometimes the small things matter. Good vibes are so important. We are done as an institution.
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100% agreed. Really bizarre way to go about things with these cost cutting measures whenever half of that first team squad needs binned, yet I doubt that will happen any time soon.
 
TheReligion said:
I am a horrible person so it is okay :angel:

That poster I feel is being disingenuous anyway.
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He is a Bayern supporter so something has to be deeply wrong with him anyway. Pretty sure disingenuous isn't even in the top 5.

just kidding of course, I don't know him or his posts, but as a non-United fan, he will always be a little more inclined to not see the positive changes with the same magnitude as we do.
 
Bon1803 said:
Losing site of the bigger picture. This pathetic penny pinching will lower morale from the ground up.

If the lower level staff are happy it will translate to the players. I know this sounds minor but these little things can go a long way.

When SAF was in charge he knew everybody by name.

If the players had anything about them they would step in and open their fat wallets. These cost savings wont make any impact they are targetting the wrong areas. I understand the down sizing of staff numbers if the rota is bloated but to lower Christmas bonuses is pretty low. It may not seem a lot of money for some and yes its a bonus so should not really be counted on but the people in some of these roles will count on it, thats not on Utd its just side product of terrible goverments and wealth distribution.
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Agreed.
 
NZT-One said:
He is a Bayern supporter so something has to be deeply wrong with him anyway. Pretty sure disingenuous isn't even in the top 5.

just kidding of course, I don't know him or his posts, but as a non-United fan, he will always be a little more inclined to not see the positive changes with the same magnitude as we do.
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Perhaps I’m being an arse but I’ve little time for fans of other clubs posting in the United forum in that fashion.

He’s been given some positive points in response to his sweeping generalisation but rather than engage in discussion they have side stepped so as to continue talking about the staff bonus.

Just feels sly.
 
Champ said:
Do people realise that the club is losing money?
Getting big contracts/money off the books will be priority for Ineos without doubt, small things like bonus reductions are standard for a business not making money.
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According to Forbes operating income is 155m. Real Madrid was 75m. So we’re not doing that bad?
 
NZT-One said:
I think, you are overstating the meaning of those things. As others have pointed out, the club has been bloated and made use of - big salaries for next to nothing in return for players, big money actions higher up while failing on the pitch leaving the impression that the business side of the club is almost separated from the football team. From what you hear, way more staff than comparable clubs while at the same time still lacking in output and performance. A new management needed to step in to stop this bleeding. I am fairly sure, even Saudi or Qatar would have done so. I agree with you, I would be livid when my christmas bonus is taken away while watching expensive mistakes higher up unfold. No question but it doesn't matter in the big picture unfortunately. If too many of them are unhappy, I am pretty sure the management is ready to say goodbye to them as it will be able to find new ones. Thats not me saying this is good, or ideal or whatever, but it is what it is. And this is the mindset, our competitors running under as well.
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See my response to Champs.
In addition to that, because you are comparing yourselves to other clubs in the league, I do somewhat agree. However others in here have pointed out that one of the strengths from SAF was to know everyone’s names and all that. At the point of your biggest success, what set you apart from others was, among other factors, also a sort of family atmosphere. SAF was brilliant at that. So is Klopp, for example. And it’s something I appreciate about my own club.
You can have success without that. Clubs like Chelsea or City have proven that. But that would mean you really have to adapt the way these clubs operate throughout. And you have to be aware of the things you risk losing if you chase this path.
Because the family atmosphere, everything it entails, can bring a lot of upside to your club. Starting by the fans identification with the club (which is huge. The United way and all that is something that seems to be very important for the United fans I know), the players benefitting from the atmosphere and more.
So while I agree that reform is necessary for your club. But I also believe that you must be very careful about the way you do it and about remaining true to what makes you special. You’ve already lost a bit of that with the Glazers and I think INEOS are risking to lose even more of what made you special.
But I also understand that this is the perspective from an outsider that’s very subjective.
 
NZT-One said:
Not sure it works like that. There have been people let go. The bonus most like wasn't seen as some sort of happy suprise but something that was about to happen. Sure, it did piss off people, would have pissed me off as well but I am pretty sure had the bonus remained untouched, it wouldn't have bettered the situation for people who expected that bonus anyway and had to say good bye to colleagues.
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Might well be. The bonus itself won’t decide your clubs fate anyway. It’s just a measure that seems pretty tone deaf to me and could be managed much better.
 
TheReligion said:
Perhaps I’m being an arse but I’ve little time for fans of other clubs posting in the United forum in that fashion.

He’s been given some positive points in response to his sweeping generalisation but rather than engage in discussion they have side stepped so as to continue talking about the staff bonus.

Just feels sly.
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I have engaged with everyone except you. For the simple reason I’ve mentioned multiple times and the fact you called me a troll and disingenuous. All after I refrained from getting personal with you, until the moment I called your actions weak.
So looking at this from my pov, would you enjoy engaging with someone acting like you? Because I don’t. You could have simply explained your initial statement to me, after I asked in a completely normal manner. Instead you chose to be confrontational and weirdly hostile.
 
HTG said:
I have engaged with everyone except you. For the simple reason I’ve mentioned multiple times and the fact you called me a troll and disingenuous. All after I refrained from getting personal with you, until the moment I called your actions weak.
So looking at this from my pov, would you enjoy engaging with someone acting like you? Because I don’t. You could have simply explained your initial statement to me, after I asked in a completely normal manner. Instead you chose to be confrontational and weirdly hostile.
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Merry Christmas
 
You would think a Bayern fan had other problems then to lecture us, like losing to a C level club famous for being carnival fools
 
The holy trinity 68 said:
Who cares if random people we have never met are losing out on £60 of a christmas bonus.

Its funny how other clubs can hike up ticket prices or charge obscene amounts for season tickets, or cut staff bonuses and you don't even see or hear a word.

United do a few of these things and the entire football world goes into a frenzy, making out like Sir Jim is Satan.

Rival fans truthfully don't care either but are pretending they care about the staff, they just want an excuse to shit on the club.
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I have a family member working at United, to be fair!
 
Cutting work from home, redundancies and reducing perks/bonuses etc isn’t nice to hear. But the reality is it’s happening to loads of us across all different jobs and industries at this moment in time.

The club have been losing money consistently so all this was inevitable at some stage.
 
TheReligion said:
That’s because you’re short sighted and lapping up the tabloid narrative.

1) We have good football people in key roles in the club. No more Ed Woodward and co running operations.
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Just Jimbo sticking his oar in and fecking hings up.
 
TheReligion said:
4) Sacking Ashworth - how much is this costing then? I’ve not seen the figures but I’m aware it’s less money doing it now than it would of been beyond the 6 month probation period.
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Where are people getting this about probation period from, I've seen nothing to suggest this is true.
 
TheReligion said:
Perhaps I’m being an arse but I’ve little time for fans of other clubs posting in the United forum in that fashion.

He’s been given some positive points in response to his sweeping generalisation but rather than engage in discussion they have side stepped so as to continue talking about the staff bonus.

Just feels sly.
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:lol: :lol: :lol:
 
HTG said:
See my response to Champs.
In addition to that, because you are comparing yourselves to other clubs in the league, I do somewhat agree. However others in here have pointed out that one of the strengths from SAF was to know everyone’s names and all that. At the point of your biggest success, what set you apart from others was, among other factors, also a sort of family atmosphere. SAF was brilliant at that. So is Klopp, for example. And it’s something I appreciate about my own club.
You can have success without that. Clubs like Chelsea or City have proven that. But that would mean you really have to adapt the way these clubs operate throughout. And you have to be aware of the things you risk losing if you chase this path.
Because the family atmosphere, everything it entails, can bring a lot of upside to your club. Starting by the fans identification with the club (which is huge. The United way and all that is something that seems to be very important for the United fans I know), the players benefitting from the atmosphere and more.
So while I agree that reform is necessary for your club. But I also believe that you must be very careful about the way you do it and about remaining true to what makes you special. You’ve already lost a bit of that with the Glazers and I think INEOS are risking to lose even more of what made you special.
But I also understand that this is the perspective from an outsider that’s very subjective.
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Seems fair to me.

Sometimes it needs an outside perspective on things, not just United supporters drinking Jimbo's coolaid.
 
Moriarty said:
It's fairly common. If things down work out within a set period from the date of hire, the employment can be terminated.
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For normal employees, sure. For multimillion pound executives with negotiated contracts? Not so sure.
 
BaguetteBoy said:
If you are able body and working you won’t make an argument that £60 bonus is make or break your Christmas.
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Unless, of course you're able bodied and working on a zero hours contract. Then £60 could make a valuable difference.
 
The holy trinity 68 said:
Who cares if random people we have never met are losing out on £60 of a christmas bonus.

Its funny how other clubs can hike up ticket prices or charge obscene amounts for season tickets, or cut staff bonuses and you don't even see or hear a word.

United do a few of these things and the entire football world goes into a frenzy, making out like Sir Jim is Satan.

Rival fans truthfully don't care either but are pretending they care about the staff, they just want an excuse to shit on the club.
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I thought you were writing one of those intelligent satire type posts when reading your first line.

But you actually meant it, wow.
 
Big Ben Foster said:
For normal employees, sure. For multimillion pound executives with negotiated contracts? Not so sure.
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Executive employment contracts isn't my bailiwick, but from what I recall from the short time I spent working in employment law (which I hated), such contracts contain performance goals as well as employer expectations, and these are reviewable at whatever time the parties agree too. So it's not a probationary period per se, it can substitute for one and that's what we saw with Ashworth.
 
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