ESPN - Mourinho wants to sign Skriniar and Romagnoli in Jan

Ekeke said:
Forward passes from the CBs :

aaecb5c95d0f6a412eaea801bf3dfd40.png


I would have used our game with Spurs, but we had 3 CBs compared to 2 each here. It would have been the best comparison due to strength of opponents. Had to pick a 2 CB game though, so :

8f7501b5612742767e9bca0edc9bf443.png


On these screens you can see the number of forward passes from the players with checked boxes to the right of those boxes.

34 Laporte & 59 Stones

51 Lovren & 56 VVD

And then for us

36 Lindelof & 29 Smalling

Something that also needs to be considered though is that City played 15 more passes in general. So its highly likely that one of their players is going to make more passes than ours, in any position.

With Liverpool its close, they played 515 and we played 513

In this match Lindelof played more forward passes than Laporte. And Smalling 5 less for a team that played 15 less passes. Not much difference at all with Laporte in this match.

What about other positions though?

f1e6e3added96751520a3af66f7005e2.png


Thats how many forward passes were played by our players in this match against Burnley

0df91ce04ba6e1c9663e502bcc1e5978.png


be69cb78dc489a73e9dffeb6e86c405c.png


So Mendy played 21 more forward passes than Shaw in these particular matches

Gomez played 12 more forward passes than Valencia in these particular matches

Fellaini, Pogba and Matic all played more forward passes than Liverpool or City in these matches other than Henderson

Lingard, Sanchez and Lukaku all played more forward passes than Liverpool or City in these matches


So its definitely the defense thats one of the reasons we play a few less forward passes than the best teams in the league. But its not just the CBs. The fullbacks are even further off the numbers of some of their positions at Liverpool and City. While Lindelof was ahead of 1 of them and Smalling isnt far behind 1 of them - which considering all the blame thats put on him about passing, is a bit surprising.


7c35cd572c0d0ee2c41ce18d3f20da13.png


Against Newcastle both Smalling and Shaw played a lot more forward passes and so did the team in general. Both played more than Young. Bailly only played 19 mins so that explains such a low number.

Shaw played the most forward passes in the entire team, 1 more than Pogba. And Smalling played the 3rd most of our team.

Perhaps the valencia match here is the best example of us playing a 2 at the back against a fairly good team :

fb64f6f266914243a745a4b3f56ab8bf.png


Smalling played plenty from CB, more than Bailly and not a huge amount less than Liverpool's or City's did when they played each other. A decent amount behind Stones and VVD, but quite close to Lovren and 14 more than Laporte.

Valencia made much more than his previous screenshot and Matic played a lot too.


Smalling has a reputation but its not fair. Its mostly a myth. While he's definitely not as good as Stones, or VVD on the ball that doesnt make him bad on the ball. City and Liverpool only have 1 player here making a lot more forward passes from CB than Smalling.

So adding 1 player who can make around the same amount as they do and putting them next to Smalling will surely help. But sometimes the fullbacks arent making as many as our rivals either.
Click to expand...
I'm a huge fan of Smalling's defensive abilities, but he certainly isn't good on the ball. He keeps things simple and is comfortable making short passes. But, when he's expected to play from the back, he's non-existent, hence why Matic and Pogba often come so deep to start the play.

On top of that, points that I've noted from watching him over the years (not based on facts) is that Smalling often passes either behind the player or with the wrong power. Many passes he makes slows down the play as we can't efficiently utilise empty spaces due to him under-hitting a pass. Also, Smalling generally looks incredibly clumsy on the ball. That in isolation should not necessarily be used against him, although, he does need more time on the ball to sort his feet out than most other CB's.

Looking at the number of passes/forward passes alone doesn't say an awful lot, as our CB's will naturally make a lot of passes against opposition defending deep against us. You're also comparing the number of passes City and Liverpool's players made against each other to our games against Burnley and Newcastle. It's not a fair comparison.
You also need to consider several other factors like: average pass distance, pass accuracy (in relation to the average distance), chances created, etc.

I think most will agree that Smalling is very good at defending, but he is quite limited with the ball at his feet when he's needed to create chances and/or open space up for our attacking players. Having a CB that is capable of such will allow our midfielders to move further forward and add numbers when attacking.
 
Didn’t Jose say not that long ago something about Not having a left sided CB? They all want to play right side, which Skriniar mostly plays right sided and well Allessio is left footed playing on the left side so you would think if Jose really feels that way and it’s important to him that would be his best option.

Let’s face it surely if we can get a buyer Jones and Rojo are gone, maybe 1 of Bailly or Lindelof but I’d only imagine 1 of those two leaving if 2 CB’s came in.

Smalling
Bailly/Lindelof
Skriniar
Romagnoli

Then as back ups
Fosu
Tuanzebe
Can’t see that happening and especially not in January, more likely 1 CB and that will be it.
 
United Pro said:
I'm a huge fan of Smalling's defensive abilities, but he certainly isn't good on the ball. He keeps things simple and is comfortable making short passes. But, when he's expected to play from the back, he's non-existent, hence why Matic and Pogba often come so deep to start the play.

On top of that, points that I've noted from watching him over the years (not based on facts) is that Smalling often passes either behind the player or with the wrong power. Many passes he makes slows down the play as we can't efficiently utilise empty spaces due to him under-hitting a pass. Also, Smalling generally looks incredibly clumsy on the ball. That in isolation should not necessarily be used against him, although, he does need more time on the ball to sort his feet out than most other CB's.

Looking at the number of passes/forward passes alone doesn't say an awful lot, as our CB's will naturally make a lot of passes against opposition defending deep against us. You're also comparing the number of passes City and Liverpool's players made against each other to our games against Burnley and Newcastle. It's not a fair comparison.
You also need to consider several other factors like: average pass distance, pass accuracy (in relation to the average distance), chances created, etc.

I think most will agree that Smalling is very good at defending, but he is quite limited with the ball at his feet when he's needed to create chances and/or open space up for our attacking players. Having a CB that is capable of such will allow our midfielders to move further forward and add numbers when attacking.
Click to expand...

And Valencia, our toughest opponent where we fielded 2 CBs.

I left out Spurs simply because we played 3 CBs and if anything that might mean having less of the ball between them each. For no other reason

34f53a1493462eb219a810c0b05a401b.png


But as you can see, Smalling still played the most forward passes and more than 1 Spurs CB on the day. 10 behind someone who's main strength is passing of course. He's never going to be that ball playing CB. But not everyone who is said to be is either.

But he does play the ball out comfortably with forward passes. He's just taller than most CBs so its going to look different to someone shorter than he is.
 
Ekeke said:
And Valencia, our toughest opponent where we fielded 2 CBs.

I left out Spurs simply because we played 3 CBs and if anything that might mean having less of the ball between them each. For no other reason

34f53a1493462eb219a810c0b05a401b.png


But as you can see, Smalling still played the most forward passes and more than 1 Spurs CB on the day. 10 behind someone who's main strength is passing of course. He's never going to be that ball playing CB. But not everyone who is said to be is either.

But he does play the ball out comfortably with forward passes. He's just taller than most CBs so its going to look different to someone shorter than he is.
Click to expand...
The fact that Smalling passes more just highlights that he's the CB that gets on the ball the most. Plus, given how slow our build up play is, the ball often stays with the defenders for a while before we move the ball forward, hence the greater number of passes.

Smalling is functional on the ball, so he keeps things simple and can comfortably make many 5-10 yard passes without pressure on him. But, against the better teams that press or when the centre backs need to stretch the play with accurate long passes, Smalling is simply lacking imo. It's precisely why he didn't make England's World Cup squad and still doesn't make the squad, even though he's arguably the best defensively.
 
United Pro said:
The fact that Smalling passes more just highlights that he's the CB that gets on the ball the most. Plus, given how slow our build up play is, the ball often stays with the defenders for a while before we move the ball forward, hence the greater number of passes.

Smalling is functional on the ball, so he keeps things simple and can comfortably make many 5-10 yard passes without pressure on him. But, against the better teams that press or when the centre backs need to stretch the play with accurate long passes, Smalling is simply lacking imo. It's precisely why he didn't make England's World Cup squad and still doesn't make the squad, even though he's arguably the best defensively.
Click to expand...

You can say that but England's composure at the back went right out the window the moment a half decent team pressed them. So they are no different to what you're suggesting Smalling is like. Other than they arent as good defending.
 
Ekeke said:
You can say that but England's composure at the back went right out the window the moment a half decent team pressed them. So they are no different to what you're suggesting Smalling is like. Other than they arent as good defending.
Click to expand...
I don't agree with that. Stones, Maguire, Gomez, Tarkowski, Dunk, Keane, Dier (if played there) and Mawson are all better on the ball than Smalling and those are just select few English centre backs.

If Smalling had to take more risks on the ball with long passes and through balls, the number of passes he makes and success rate would drop dramatically. It's because of a lack of ball playing ability that dictates Smalling to always take the easy short pass, leading to a reasonable number of passes per game.
 
GBBQ said:
Newcastle aside, I think in general his MO is to soak up pressure and hit on the break. Also we had the second best defence last season with pretty much the same line up, I wouldn't say we're shit just that we're not playing to our strengths/getting the best out of them
Click to expand...

It isn’t. Otherwise he would concede majority of possession to all the weak teams he comes up against. Also, there is very little example of our team counter-attacking.

I do agree that’s probably his plan against bigger sides, at least away from home, though. I’d say on the whole, the idea seems to be for us to have more of the ball and trust that the chances will come eventually, and he is big on chance conversion when they arrive. He’s visibly infuriated when we waste chances, and I think he expects us to be tight at the back, and then by the time we’ve taken 2 or 3 chances, the game is over.
 
Referring to the initial piece, id just like to point out that it's October . And supposedly Jose has put in an updated transfer list. This better feckin be sorted well before the end of January.
 
United Pro said:
I don't agree with that. Stones, Maguire, Gomez, Tarkowski, Dunk, Keane, Dier (if played there) and Mawson are all better on the ball than Smalling and those are just select few English centre backs.

If Smalling had to take more risks on the ball with long passes and through balls, the number of passes he makes and success rate would drop dramatically. It's because of a lack of ball playing ability that dictates Smalling to always take the easy short pass, leading to a reasonable number of passes per game.
Click to expand...

Even if that were true, which it isnt, again England's "composure" and "ball playing" fell to pieces when they were pressed by decent teams which is what you said would happen to Smalling. So they are no different at least when playing for their country. Eric Bailly style panicked mishit clearances and aimless hoofs up the pitch is what it turned into against Belgium and Croatia.
 
ravi2 said:
To be fair, that's like saying pep wasted money on bravo and nolito and shouldn't be allowed to rectify his mistakes.
Some players work out and some don't.

Having said that I don't think even godin and bonucci back there would make us look like a great team. I like Jose but the style of play that he has us playing stinks. The sooner he is moved on and Ed stays the feck away from footballing matters the better off we would be.

Our first signing before getting anyone else should be a dof.
Click to expand...

My point is that Mou has his share of mistakes in all this and its a quite expensive share indeed. He had already sold Mkhitaryan, he seem to have lost interest in Bailly and Lindelof and if reports are to be believed then he's got issues with Sanchez and Pogba whose yet to show any consistency whatsoever. If you also add the under utilisation of both Dalot and Fred (the latter was chucked out after controversially erm scoring a goal) then that's 70% of all his signings. The rest are Matic, Lukaku and Grant, the former two had regressed massively this season while the latter is nothing more then a cheerleader.

Mou likes to speak about squad inheritance. If a new manager comes in whom, out of Mou's signing, would the manager appreciate having around? Sanchez, Grant and Matic are in their 30s and they are already in decline. Bailly and Lindelof aren't up to grabs while Pogba might push a move anytime soon. I'd say Lukaku + Fred and Dalot (the latter two are still untested though). Meanwhile DDG, Martial, Smalling, Periera and Shaw are heading towards their last months of contracts and do not look set to sign a new one anytime soon. United risk ending up in a weaker position then the squad left by LVG and that's after spending 432.100.000 €
 
Sterling Archer said:
Referring to the initial piece, id just like to point out that it's October . And supposedly Jose has put in an updated transfer list. This better feckin be sorted well before the end of January.
Click to expand...

With some names which are obviously untransferable. Sure this will end well
 
Sarni said:
No, he should be forced to play Bailly and Lindelöf forever. I am also outraged that we allowed Ferguson and other managers to replace the transfers that didn’t work out. Veron should have been kept.
Click to expand...
Ferguson and other managers e.g. Guardiola certainly had their share of transfer failures, but in contrast to Mou, they also had some genuine successes along the way. Additionally, they were able to work better with what they had, with many players showing improvement under their coaching.

Mou has failed on both counts, which is why the board might be reluctant to back him over, say, a different manager.
 
Sad truth is Blind was better than all our current cb’s and he was sold because he was short. Although I rarely remember him getting beat in the air. He used his intelligence to overcome his limited pace and he had great passing and vision.
 
Ekeke said:
Forward passes from the CBs :

aaecb5c95d0f6a412eaea801bf3dfd40.png


I would have used our game with Spurs, but we had 3 CBs compared to 2 each here. It would have been the best comparison due to strength of opponents. Had to pick a 2 CB game though, so :

8f7501b5612742767e9bca0edc9bf443.png


On these screens you can see the number of forward passes from the players with checked boxes to the right of those boxes.

34 Laporte & 59 Stones

51 Lovren & 56 VVD

And then for us

36 Lindelof & 29 Smalling

Something that also needs to be considered though is that City played 15 more passes in general. So its highly likely that one of their players is going to make more passes than ours, in any position.

With Liverpool its close, they played 515 and we played 513

In this match Lindelof played more forward passes than Laporte. And Smalling 5 less for a team that played 15 less passes. Not much difference at all with Laporte in this match.

What about other positions though?

f1e6e3added96751520a3af66f7005e2.png


Thats how many forward passes were played by our players in this match against Burnley

0df91ce04ba6e1c9663e502bcc1e5978.png


be69cb78dc489a73e9dffeb6e86c405c.png


So Mendy played 21 more forward passes than Shaw in these particular matches

Gomez played 12 more forward passes than Valencia in these particular matches

Fellaini, Pogba and Matic all played more forward passes than Liverpool or City in these matches other than Henderson

Lingard, Sanchez and Lukaku all played more forward passes than Liverpool or City in these matches


So its definitely the defense thats one of the reasons we play a few less forward passes than the best teams in the league. But its not just the CBs. The fullbacks are even further off the numbers of some of their positions at Liverpool and City. While Lindelof was ahead of 1 of them and Smalling isnt far behind 1 of them - which considering all the blame thats put on him about passing, is a bit surprising.


7c35cd572c0d0ee2c41ce18d3f20da13.png


Against Newcastle both Smalling and Shaw played a lot more forward passes and so did the team in general. Both played more than Young. Bailly only played 19 mins so that explains such a low number.

Shaw played the most forward passes in the entire team, 1 more than Pogba. And Smalling played the 3rd most of our team.

Perhaps the valencia match here is the best example of us playing a 2 at the back against a fairly good team :

fb64f6f266914243a745a4b3f56ab8bf.png


Smalling played plenty from CB, more than Bailly and not a huge amount less than Liverpool's or City's did when they played each other. A decent amount behind Stones and VVD, but quite close to Lovren and 14 more than Laporte.

Valencia made much more than his previous screenshot and Matic played a lot too.


Smalling has a reputation but its not fair. Its mostly a myth. While he's definitely not as good as Stones, or VVD on the ball that doesnt make him bad on the ball. City and Liverpool only have 1 player here making a lot more forward passes from CB than Smalling.

So adding 1 player who can make around the same amount as they do and putting them next to Smalling will surely help. But sometimes the fullbacks arent making as many as our rivals either.
Click to expand...
Surely it would be more interesting looking at us against a minnow and City against a minnow. Those are the games we should be winning and aren't. City and Liverpool were
both more conservative than normal in that game as neither wanted to lose.
 
Another group of players that will comfortable sit on the bench or he's going to have a fall out with. Joseites will proceed to say he wasn't backed.
 
Posted this in the DeLigt thread

If it’s true about the €65m bid for DeLigt I’d wager money on it having been united just like the €65m bid for Skriniar at Inter which was also turned down. I also read somewhere that we also enquired about koubilay too. My theory is that Ed tried for the young ones first, got knocked back. Left with a bunch of older crocks to risk money on or Maguire he chose to take it no further this window and told miserable Mou to work with what he’s got
Click to expand...
 
Kapardin said:
Problem with Mourinho is, it is pretty clear from his desperation for CBs that he is not planning on changing. His strategy is to have an insurmountable defense and basically let attackers do their thing with no proper coaching. Unfortunately, he doesn't have Costa, Hazard or Fabregas in attack. Our attack needs coaching as individual brilliance is hard to come by, except for Pogba.

He thinks he can sign 2 WC CBs, then bore his way to 2nd or even win the league and get back to justifying his shite football with "Amazing season, I won x trophies". His biggest gripe is that the only excuse he had for his terrible style, viz., trophies and results, are not there and he feels vulnerable.

Those 20 minutes of the Newcastle game are not going to be his template. Not going to happen. The league's changed, solid defenses don't win titles, the team that scores the most goals does.
Click to expand...

Which team has won the title without having one one of the best defensive records of late?

Infact isnt Liverpool a perfect example of a side who hasnt really come into title contention until they sorted their defence.

The issue with United is that not only do you need a solid defence, you also meed a very good attack and we dont have either now. When we had good defensive records lately our attack has been poor.

So actually this conversation can get silly because in reality you need a good defenense AND a very good attack you dont win the premier league without both elements
 
Ekeke said:
Even if that were true, which it isnt, again England's "composure" and "ball playing" fell to pieces when they were pressed by decent teams which is what you said would happen to Smalling. So they are no different at least when playing for their country. Eric Bailly style panicked mishit clearances and aimless hoofs up the pitch is what it turned into against Belgium and Croatia.
Click to expand...
We can agree to disagree. If you believe Smalling is as composed on the ball as say Maguire or Stones, then that's your opinion. But, imo Smalling's real weakness in his game is his ability on the ball. I think Smalling is a player we should definitely keep in the squad, but we also need a first choice ball playing CB to either play alongside him or to replace him (depending on form).
 
United Pro said:
We can agree to disagree. If you believe Smalling is as composed on the ball as say Maguire or Stones, then that's your opinion. But, imo Smalling's real weakness in his game is his ability on the ball. I think Smalling is a player we should definitely keep in the squad, but we also need a first choice ball playing CB to either play alongside him or to replace him (depending on form).
Click to expand...

No thats not what I said.

You claimed Smalling doesnt have the composure and passing for when teams press him and thats why he doesnt play for England.

I simply said thats exactly what happened against Belgium and Croatia with England's defense. I obviously do think Maguire and Stones are more composed and better passers, although Maguire gives the ball away a lot he also creates some openings. But despite being more composed and better passers, the England defense fell apart in exactly the scenario you were saying Smalling wouldn't be able to handle. So even though they are more composed and better passers, it wasnt enough to deal with that situation either.

And yes I agree we need a +1 signing to play next to him because Smalling is never going to be the ball playing CB. My only point the entire time is that he isnt that far off the CBs who play for our rivals who take that 2nd spot in defense next to their best ball player. Not that he is as good as their best passer from CB.
 
DomesticTadpole said:
Surely it would be more interesting looking at us against a minnow and City against a minnow. Those are the games we should be winning and aren't. City and Liverpool were
both more conservative than normal in that game as neither wanted to lose.
Click to expand...

Which is why I wanted to compare it to Valencia, and eventually I did anyway - but initially I didnt want to compare duos at the back with the 3 man defense we used with Ander at RCB.
 
Ekeke said:
No thats not what I said.

You claimed Smalling doesnt have the composure and passing for when teams press him and thats why he doesnt play for England.

I simply said thats exactly what happened against Belgium and Croatia with England's defense. I obviously do think Maguire and Stones are more composed and better passers, although Maguire gives the ball away a lot he also creates some openings. But despite being more composed and better passers, the England defense fell apart in exactly the scenario you were saying Smalling wouldn't be able to handle. So even though they are more composed and better passers, it wasnt enough to deal with that situation either.

And yes I agree we need a +1 signing to play next to him because Smalling is never going to be the ball playing CB. My only point the entire time is that he isnt that far off the CBs who play for our rivals who take that 2nd spot in defense next to their best ball player. Not that he is as good as their best passer from CB.
Click to expand...

Thats a fair point at the end since Samchez isnt the greatest on the ball either at Spurs. But I guess witn City Liverpool Chelsea both their CBs are comfortably better on the ball
 
Cassidy said:
With some names which are obviously untransferable. Sure this will end well
Click to expand...

Untransferable or difficult to transfer? We're one of, if not the, biggest club in the world. If our CFO brags about doing things in the transfer market that others only dream of then we better not feckin see transfers of CBs from Inter and Milan as impossible.
 
Sterling Archer said:
Untransferable or difficult to transfer? We're one of, if not the, biggest club in the world. If our CFO brags about doing things in the transfer market that others only dream of then we better not feckin see transfers of CBs from Inter and Milan as impossible.
Click to expand...

Skriniar is impossible in Jan imo it doesnt matter what club they play for. If the player doesnt want to leave or the club dont want to sell they wont.

Its exactly said attitude that has got Woodward/us into trouble.

Understanding the market you’re playing in and not just saying “were Manchester United” is key. Gone are the days you could just bully most clubs because they are broke.

Thats doesnt mean we dont still have a privileged position in the market, it just means you have to be smart and not stupid. Like still going after a player who has said they are not interested in a transfer this season.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.