That movement in the box, my gosh! You can learn to get better at these kind of things by studying film and watching great players, but you're never going to be as instinctive and clever than a kid like this who just knows where and when to move/hold at the right time.
Erling Haaland | Dortmund player
- Thread starter Samid
- Start date
I'm sure they're used to it by now. But they have a great shot at the CL this year IMO. Get Reus fit and their starting 11 is fecking tremendous, possibly the best attack in Europe. Hakimi and Sancho I'd guess will both definitely leave in the summer, but that's it IMO and itll be interesting to see how they spend the £120 or so they get for Sancho. They tend to have a good eye for talent like that.
Where has the 'Hwang and Minamino are better players than Haaland' crew gone? I swear some hipsters on here only want to sound different and go against the public opinion for the sake of it.
It seems to stupid to say this because of how they've continued to recycle great talent (Gotze to Dembele to Sancho, Lewandowski to Aubamayeng to Haaland) but I doubt they can find someone as good as Sancho and Haaland. They certainly are great, but you're bound to get a dud sometime or another and when that happens your fortunes can change completely.
Reus is 31 and already you can, finally even after suffering so many injuries, see his ability starting to wain. Hummels is also going to be 32 and has already lost his speed while Witsel is also 31. These players won't give high performances for much longer so I don't think Dortmund can bank on youngsters because they won't have the older players to supplement the inconsistencies of those youngsters. What's worse is that if those youngsters don't end up being that good, then you're in for a downward spiral with not only you're experienced players gone but also no good youngster to replace them with.
Similar thing happened to Bremen in 2010, before that they were consistently in the top 4, bare one horrible season where they came mid table (but won the DFB Pokal, sort of similar to Dortmund in 14-15). They too had lost their best players but managed to replace them with great/good players (Micoud --> Diego --> Ozil, Ailton --> Klose --> Hunt). The problem though came when Ozil left and they bought Arnautovic thinking he could replace him. Suffice to say Arnautovic flopped completely and Bremen have never reached the top 6 since that season I think, that was despite still having Mertesacker, Marin and Hunt.
All it takes is one bad signing.
Ronaldo-esque tap-in merchant, and I mean that in the best sense of the word. His movement and instincts in the box are as good as I've ever seen, and the fecker is just 19! He's going to become an absolutely mad player when he hits his peak.
Dortmund's defense and away form are way too inconsistent for that. I wouldn't even say their odds for progressing this round are better than 50/50. It would take some Klopp overachievement magic to swing that and Favre, without trying to hate on him, certainly doesn't have that ability.
How is that a tap-in? People haven't seen the goal, have they?
Conventional wisdom tells you that Norway can't possibly have TWO talents like Haaland and Ødegaard at the same time. Understandable skepticism.
It's a first touch finish almost inside the six yard box. Tap-in might be the wrong word, but it's definitely the goal of a poacher/fox-in-the-box type striker.
Thats decent
No offense, but that Bremen comparison and your conclusion is way off.
Bremen was always on borrowed time, because they never really translated their sporting success into (enough) financial growth, they took one risky bet after another with transfers: Almeida, Carlos Alberto and Diego were - afaik - basically flops at Porto before Bremen bought them, Özil fell out with Schalke and Boenisch couldn't break into their first team, before Werder got them, Arnautovic spent a season on Inter's bench/stands before Bremen signed him on top of that a ton of random Scandinavians. If I remember correctly their wage bill also grew to levels only sustainable with regular CL income, their transfer spending was always evenish or negative.
The comparison with Dortmund ended perhaps around 2012/13, when Dortmund proved to be more than a 1 hit wonder, translated its success into the CL, shed its debts, moved from buying underrated talents and "obscure" players to buying Reus and skyrocketed its turnover to the firm no2 in Bundesliga. Where Bremen went bargain hunting Dortmund are buying tier 1 talents. Spotting the likes of Dembele, Sancho or Haaland isn't some arcane skill or luck, even random fans know about their talent long before they move clubs. The hard part is convincing these kids that it's best for them to join YOUR club among dozens of offers, some of them from bigger clubs with better wages.
You say "all it takes is one bad signing", but you might want to look at the 16/17 window, Schürrle for €30m, Götze for €22m, for different reasons neither really had an impact. Rode for €12m was another flop, as was Emre Mor for €10m, Alexander Isak for €9m (at least if we look at what he added to the team at Dortmund - I know it looks like he'll turn out to be a fine player) and Merino for €4m (similar story to Isak really).
That's around €87m for little to no sporting impact and it didn't end the club, they actually played their best CL campaign in recent years and won the domestic cup. The club has grown enough that it can sustain a couple of bad transfers (if you look at their domestic signings there have actually been a shocking amount of them).
Reus (who is still 30 btw) has already been somewhat replaced by Brandt in terms of attacking importance, I don't know if it's age or just a bad spell, but he hasn't been that integral to Dortmund's success this season.
Witsel has his successor lined up in Emre Can, infact tactically he probably already plays his role, as Witsel has been more attacking since they play next to each other.
Obviously Sancho won't just be replaced 1 for 1, but €150m (or whatever he will fetch) is a ton of money, enough to buy a good attacker and perhaps a great defender.
I don't know whether Dortmund will be stronger or weaker next season, there are too many transfers to be done until then, including the coaching position. Maybe they will lose Hakimi and Sancho, maybe they won't be able to compensate, but what I'm sure about is that it won't throw the club into turmoil or a downward spiral, it has become too rich and the squad too deep for that to happen and the people at the top know what to do.
I expect Reus´ role and position to shift back to what it used to be under Klopp: not the central vocal point of the attack but a strong attacking threat from the sides. Reus´ biggest strengths are his smart off the ball movement (Haaland reminds me a lot of Reus in that regard) and his shooting technique and these things usually don´t fade too much with age. He himself might prefer to play centrally but the fall off in terms of scoring ability is pretty marginal abd Brand is in terms of skill set (better passer, stronger close control but lesser attacking edge) simply better suited for a central role.
So I expect that Reus will actually replace Sanchos position in the next season at least for the short term (Reyna, who has more raw potential than even Pulisic, is already waiting in the wings). Reus will stay a consistent part of the starting XI for quite a while and as good as Sancho is, I´m confident that they will find a good solution to fill his void, if not individually than collectively. Hakimi will be the real challenge to replace.
The same dad who was killed by Robbie Keane?
Pretty decent stats
I think in a parallel universe Dortmund sign a German speaking Antonio Conte in the Summer and play 352 with a Can, Witsel, Brandt midfield (signing a CM prodigy to cover for Brandt or replace Witsel/Can against minnows), keep Hakimi and let Reus play around Haaland upfront. For all his insane attacking output I think Sancho is a liability defensively and the one good thing about him leaving is that it gives the club a chance to transition from being the team that wins 3-2, 4-3 to just winning 2-0, like a normal team.
He’s number ten in the Bundesliga top scorer’s list now (shared with a couple of players). I wonder where he’ll end up.
When I said similar I never meant to say Dortmund will also be in the relegation zone 3-4 years from now but rather meant to say they can go from being title challengers to just making the top 4 without making a dent in the title chase. To confidently say they will replace Sancho and Hakimi, or that they already have the tools to and will therefore continue to challenge Bayern, is not right for me.
I made the comparison with Bremen because between 2003 to 2010 Bremen were in the top 3 in all but 1 season, only Bayern had matched that record of consistency. That was made with them having the great ability to constantly rebuild their squad after losing players, similar to Dortmund they were the only team consistently challenging Bayern during that era. I don't think anyone expected them, especially since they kept Marin, to go down so quickly like they did.
With regards to the 16/17 signings, my point is that they still had Reus, Aubamayeng, Sokratis to keep the core decent and Dortmund floating in the top 4 (they were never challenging Bayern though, which they are now). Now they won't have the luxury of having those established players to maintain the standard of their team. Anyone watching will admit Reus is nowhere near his usual level this season, his finishing is off while he's not having the same impact on matches he once had (not saying he's poor because his level in previous seasons was very high), it seems the decline has finally started.
Dortmund don't just need to replace Sancho and Hakimi but also look at how to replace Reus, Hummels and Witsel. Currently I don't see anyone in that squad with the ability to do what these three vital players do. I don't agree with the Brandt comparison because Brandt plays a lot deeper and I don't think has the scoring ability that Reus had (129 goals in 266 games), Hazard doesn't have the ceiling to reach that level while Reyna is still way to young to be making such comparisons.
With regards to Hummels, if you asked my two seasons ago I would have had money on Akanji being a top class CB but nowadays he's being kept out of the starting lineup by a 34 year old RB Pizseck, so the jury is out on him. Zagadou is also really inconsistent while Balerdi hasn't been given enough games. For Witsel, Can is not on the level that the Belgian is and again, similar to Hazard, can't be expected to take over.
So to me, over the years they have always had the backup of players like Reus, Hummels, Gundogan, Witsel, Aubamayeng etc so that the core of the side was still good enough to make up for the youngsters around them not performing but now those same experienced heads will also be going and I don't see anyone in the Dortmund squad able to make up of those absences.
People in here like to point out that United is still a top club due to it's great financial situation and they're right. The moment you guys get your shit together, it'll take you 2-3 years at most to get ba k to the absolute top. Financial prowess is the one favtor that's most important for success. Money attracts talent which increases the probability of winming titles which again attracts talent.
And that's the thing I believe people miss abaoaut Dortmund when I read that they're 'one bad signing' apart from doing a Bremen or have a small club mentality. What we are witnessing there is quite unique, IMO, because it is one of the very very rare cases in which a club manages to develop into a top team without an investor that fuels the growth. From the top of my mind I can't think of another club that grew organically like Dortmund did. Atletico is probably the closest. They are making one step after the other since almost a decade and by now they've come a really long way. Nowadays they can buy the talent of any other team in the league bar Bayern. The fact that they landed Brandt and are still one of the favourites to sign Havertz from us speaks volumes. Yes, they are still losing their best talents and will also lose Haaland and Sancho but they are season by season, they get closer to keeping them. I'd say they are two, maybe three talent cycles apart from actually being able to retaining those prodigies.
I mean, look at the team they're currently fielding. Player by player, it's already better than the line ups of many clubs who are seen as being one or two tiers above Dortmund, including United. It's a talent hub and that is attracting other talents, Haaland is the prime example of that.
They are already paying wages no other Bundesliga team not named Bayern can pay. A HUGE improvement to their Klopp years. Comparable to the true elite of the business? No, not quite there yet, but give them another probably five years at the current pace and they are. And not only that. Ten years ago, they were reliant on signing players like Kagawa for peanuts. Now it even seems possible that they land Havertz for more than 100m - how many clubs have spent transer sums of that category? Barca, PSG and Atletico?
So yeah, IMO Dortmund is a behemoth of a club in the making. Even for the biggest clubs, it gets harder to bully them around seasom by season.
And that's the thing I believe people miss abaoaut Dortmund when I read that they're 'one bad signing' apart from doing a Bremen or have a small club mentality. What we are witnessing there is quite unique, IMO, because it is one of the very very rare cases in which a club manages to develop into a top team without an investor that fuels the growth. From the top of my mind I can't think of another club that grew organically like Dortmund did. Atletico is probably the closest. They are making one step after the other since almost a decade and by now they've come a really long way. Nowadays they can buy the talent of any other team in the league bar Bayern. The fact that they landed Brandt and are still one of the favourites to sign Havertz from us speaks volumes. Yes, they are still losing their best talents and will also lose Haaland and Sancho but they are season by season, they get closer to keeping them. I'd say they are two, maybe three talent cycles apart from actually being able to retaining those prodigies.
I mean, look at the team they're currently fielding. Player by player, it's already better than the line ups of many clubs who are seen as being one or two tiers above Dortmund, including United. It's a talent hub and that is attracting other talents, Haaland is the prime example of that.
They are already paying wages no other Bundesliga team not named Bayern can pay. A HUGE improvement to their Klopp years. Comparable to the true elite of the business? No, not quite there yet, but give them another probably five years at the current pace and they are. And not only that. Ten years ago, they were reliant on signing players like Kagawa for peanuts. Now it even seems possible that they land Havertz for more than 100m - how many clubs have spent transer sums of that category? Barca, PSG and Atletico?
So yeah, IMO Dortmund is a behemoth of a club in the making. Even for the biggest clubs, it gets harder to bully them around seasom by season.
They will lose Haaland and Sancho in the next 2 summers. And thats why most of us dont think they can build. Players like those 2 above go to Dortmund cos they know they can play in a relatively big team and get a move to a historically bigger team.
Ehm yeah, I don't really know what your point is though. I never denied that but actually adressed this issue in my post.
Your closing statement says it gets harder to bully them, it really doesn't as long as the players don't see it as the place to be. It is still seen as a stepping stone for young players hence why the likes of Haaland and Sancho went there. If/When they lose those two, they need to replace and carry on building. ITs just a never ending cycle for them. Bayern build on, they dont have to replace and build - and this is what the biggest/best teams are capable of.
I honestly think that the Ruhr Valley is a big factor. It gives them their enormous support due to the millions of people living there. That by default means Dortmund are a sleeping giant. But at the same time it’s just such a shitty area to live in if you can afford something better.
I think if Dortmund was at the sea or in the alps they’d find it easy to hold talent every now and then.
But aside of being a big hub and having lots of stuff to do, the area just isn’t appealing to people from elsewhere. If you’re a star athlete I guess a lot of the activities in the area are kind of impossible to partake in. Either it’s Schalke territory or you just get crowded out by fans.
I think if Dortmund was at the sea or in the alps they’d find it easy to hold talent every now and then.
But aside of being a big hub and having lots of stuff to do, the area just isn’t appealing to people from elsewhere. If you’re a star athlete I guess a lot of the activities in the area are kind of impossible to partake in. Either it’s Schalke territory or you just get crowded out by fans.
I think his main point is that Dortmund have made great progress financially. Dortmund has gone from the brink of bancruptcy in 2005, to being debt free with a large amount of savings and a greatly increased turnover. That is the main reason they are harder to bully, because they don't depend on the transfer fees and are able to pay better wages themselves.
Players like De Bruyne, Sané, Mbappe and Neymar did not go to City or PSG because the clubs are historically big, but because they offered a combination of great wages and a good chance of success. That is the second point, Dortmund currently have a great team, of which many players would love to be a part.
The combination of both brings talents like Sancho and Haaland to Dortmund. Their presence in turn boosts Dortmunds financial strength because they bring success, attract new fans and make neutral viewers turn in for Dortmund games. That brings better sponsorship deals, and to top it of, many of those talents fetch a large transfer fee when they move on.
That is the trajectory of a steep upwards spiral, not a vicious never ending circle.
First of all as a Dortmund supporters your post does stroke the ego quite well
While I agree about the general assessment of our development as a club (separate from sporting success which has been shaky in the last couple of seasons) I don't necessarily count on the trajectory continuing like that in the next 5-10 years. What is true however is that the club is a lot more robust to failed transfers and weak seasons than before and than Bremen have ever been. This robustness is definitely a good thing. Right now our team is a lot of fun and I am really sad that Sancho and Haaland won't be playing together for more than half a season (at least not at Dortmund probably ). I am happy to see how this team does in the future.Where I strongly disagree is your assessment of a possible Havertz transfer. It would be a wet dream to have him in our squad (even though I am not 100% sure whose role he would take and I could still see him not becoming the superstar that he looks like at times) but I really don't see that transfer happening. The only way it could work out would be if Havertz really wanted to come here and I believe we do have some arguments on our side (he would not have to move too far away from home, his buddy Brandt is there and he knows a lot of the other players as well, exciting team right now). But Dortmund absolutely do NOT have the capabilities to pay €100m+ for him. I don't see how a deal could be negotiated with Völler that Dortmund are able to manage, I only see it happening through substantial push from Havertz.
I think the fact Dortmund are harder to bully is reflected in the transfer fees their players command. While players like Kagawa, Götze, Mkhitaryan went for pretty little money in relation to their importance to the team it is common knowledge that Sancho for example or Dembélé two and a half years ago will leave/have left for enormous amounts of money. That is simply down to Dortmund having a better bargening position both with players (they have to have long enough contracts for negotiations with clubs) and with clubs. So yes, it is a cycle of building up players and selling them, but the club is growing steadily at the same time, I don't see them as stagnant.
Nicely put, especially coming from a Schalke fan, I appreciate it.
I'm not sure what the fuss is about. Dortmund are still a selling club and they know that and their transfer strategy reflects that (buying talents).
Someone used FM Editor. God damn cheaters!
What point are you trying to make?
Maybe he is a moaning Bayern fan seeing Haaland, Sancho and our great development, while thinking of Renato Sanchez and all the other great Bayern scouting sucesses. Also RB is doing great work and Bayern already feel the breaths of both of tIhem in their neck. BVB and RB slowly but surely got closer. Bayern just made too much errors in the last years and still have to proove if their can get back on track. Internationaly they are far away from being a competitor, and in the Bundesliga the great and steady work of BVB and RB results in narrowing the gap.
Your unnecessary wind-ups are a fecking embarrassment, please stop.
That you’ve been doing pretty much the same thing you’ve been doing the last 5 years buying young talents and selling them for profit, this is the allure in certain talents going there as well because they know they will get games, but also when it’s time to sell Dortmund wouldn't kick up too much of a fuss.
These 1 touch finishes he mainly scores, he would not get here at United and would have only scored around half the amount of goals at best as he has for Dortmund.
That's not really much of a new insight though is it? I was just wondering what discussion he was contributing to.
You are missing the point that Dortmund slowly climbed up the latter and still does. They worked theirself out of the situation of like 5 years ago. They can now get players in the top tier of talents which already can go to the richest clubs but prefer to go to the BVB (obviously to a surprise of some people, like in the last case with Haaland). They can pay more. They got more money than 5 years ago. The overall squad is filled with talents not only 1. They overall position has changed. You can't deny that. Situations like there is a buyout clause for Götze, this is the past. If BVB is loosing a player they planned to. And they get record sums for these players. These situations in the past are far away now, due to the work the BVB did and the progress they have got.
There is still a big gap to lets say Bayern. But, you can also see that they have progressed.
The level the whole club is now is astonishing if you think about that the whole club was 1 inch away of being shut down due to horrible politics and financial debts. And that is not long ago.
I agree that Dortmund have done incredible work and are generally a very impressive club in so many ways.
But how can you say that things like buyouts are a thing of the past when Haaland supposedly has a buyout clause?
I do think the gnashing of teeth on here about him is ridiculous though. Nobody is saying that Dortmund is bigger than Man Utd as a club. But if I were a young player, I would feel my development would be more guaranteed at Dortmund than at Man Utd and I'd lean to going there.
Big club in their own right, still a very good league, great stadium, good wages, pretty much guaranteed CL regardless of how bad a season they have, chance for trophies. And while they may not be in the very elite (yet...) he's only 19. Plenty of time to get his move to Madrid or Barcelona or whatever if that is what his long term plan is.
The environment would just feel more supportive for me. Not everything is about money as some on here seem to think.
First, and i hope that i don't lean out of the window too much, let me state: i know some people there and i strongly disbelieve that there is a "normal buyout clause" starting at one moment and has a freezed sum...
Second: the difference is, that in the past case of Götze, the differences of Bayern and Dortmund were still very large. And the buyout clause was to less compared to the value of Götze for the team (at this time) and the board were realy surprised of this happening (especially with the dirty tricks Bayern played announcing this before the Cl match BVB-Real Madrid and never informed BVB before). After the important new contract of Reus there were never again buyout clauses, therefor more of gentlemens agreement with the players. And the buisness knows that you can trust the board of BVB so it worked fine.
If BVB now is loosing a player, they well planned that before and are prepared. Something they had to learn after they climbed the latter to fast in very little time and when Bayern bited back.
That situation is long gone, and their overall position is totaly different now.
I mean just look at the fact that the top players of Dortmund now are a tier to high for Bayern. They can't get a Sancho for example. What happens next is: Bayern will do what they have always done and try to rip apart that RB squad (seems that it begins with Werner, maybe Upamecano will follow). But, they can't do this anymore with the BVB. Some fact that a lot of posters here miss when they told the wannabe funny not true anymore story of "Waiting for Bayern to steal that player from BVB".
First of all as a Dortmund supporters your post does stroke the ego quite well
Where I strongly disagree is your assessment of a possible Havertz transfer. It would be a wet dream to have him in our squad (even though I am not 100% sure whose role he would take and I could still see him not becoming the superstar that he looks like at times) but I really don't see that transfer happening. The only way it could work out would be if Havertz really wanted to come here and I believe we do have some arguments on our side (he would not have to move too far away from home, his buddy Brandt is there and he knows a lot of the other players as well, exciting team right now). But Dortmund absolutely do NOT have the capabilities to pay €100m+ for him. I don't see how a deal could be negotiated with Völler that Dortmund are able to manage, I only see it happening through substantial push from Havertz.
I think the fact Dortmund are harder to bully is reflected in the transfer fees their players command. While players like Kagawa, Götze, Mkhitaryan went for pretty little money in relation to their importance to the team it is common knowledge that Sancho for example or Dembélé two and a half years ago will leave/have left for enormous amounts of money. That is simply down to Dortmund having a better bargening position both with players (they have to have long enough contracts for negotiations with clubs) and with clubs. So yes, it is a cycle of building up players and selling them, but the club is growing steadily at the same time, I don't see them as stagnant.
Nicely put, especially coming from a Schalke fan, I appreciate it.
Gotze = Bayern paid the release clause.
Mkhitaryan and Kagawa = were going into the last year of their contracts so their prices reflected that.
Dembele you can say his price changed because of the Neymar transfer, without that transfer he doesn't go for 100m.
I admire your thinking but I guess we will have to wait and see how this plays out long term.
Got to love the caf, inside information all around!
Everybody who thinks Dortmund is stagnating and in tge same position as 5 or even 8-10 years ago hasn't been paying attention.
They will buy him for 100m and let him leave on a free to Bayern.
100m.
On a planet that just saw Dortmund generate 489.5m € revenue and 17m € profit last year - without any remarkable player departures. That's a better result than that of Atletico who just spent 120m on Felix. And Dortmund will probably make ~150m from the Sancho exit so they're likely to break the 600m €mark in the upcoming year. And not only that: Since 2015, they made almost 150m € profits from transfers so they're likely to have more than enough on the bank.
But that's not even that important since they are becoming less and less dependent on selling players, which was kind of my whole point from the very beginning. This is also evidenced by numbers, by the way. From 2018 to 2019, they increased their revenue without transfer revenues by almost 50m €. That's what I mean: In the whole world, there is probably no club that is growing organically as much as Dortmund is currently doing. Give them another year or two and they are on the same level financially as Chelsea, Arsenal and Tottenham.
So will they spend 100+m on Havertz? Possibly not since he'll likely go elsewhere. Would they be able to do that? Yes, they would be.