I just think it’s funny to see someone like Shearer constantly bragging about his PL record on MOTD etc. when he won one league title his entire career. Meanwhile Rooney and Cole are chilling with less goals but European Cups and multiple championships. What is Shearer going to do when Kane breaks his record? That will be a sad day in his household. That’s why you can’t put too much store in scoring records. They’re there to be broken.
Erling Haaland | Dortmund player
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I just think it’s funny to see someone like Shearer constantly bragging about his PL record on MOTD etc. when he won one league title his entire career. Meanwhile Rooney and Cole are chilling with less goals but European Cups and multiple championships. What is Shearer going to do when Kane breaks his record? That will be a sad day in his household. That’s why you can’t put too much store in scoring records. They’re there to be broken.
Of course it does matter, and record holder will be in the history book forever, until someone else break it.
Raul did make big headline when he broke it, but to be fair he is among the first of the group who benefits from the new era and new format of competition, with introduction of group stages and more teams more games etc.
Ronaldo record though, 135 goals isn't an easy record to break at all, its almost twice as many as Raul (71 goals in 142 games), of course breaking it would make a big deal. It was big deal for Di Stefano back then, who scored 49 goals in 58 games under the old format. Different era but he was GOAT because of his success and record in old CL.
Well even for WC record, with far less number of games played and far smaller sample size, its more likely to fluke the record. But let's say if Klose didn't score that many, no one would remember him today, but now you mentioned him, so of course to certain extent it does matter. And there are also players like Fontaine, who only played one tournament and had scored most goal in record book, I don't even really know how good his football is, but he is WC legend and people remembered him because of his WC record.
There's thing called hall of fame, prestige, history and all time records in football, its nothing new, been there all the time, unless you are fans of City or PSG who doesn't mind anything plastic in football, maybe then you would think it does not matter.
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I mean that's why I say it matters who you played for, who you played against, which level which league and the level of opposition etc.
Shearer's record is/was high held because he did it with Newcastle and Blackburn.
People will still remember Shearer as the first person to score 100, 200 and 250 goals in EPL. So yes goal scoring does have some merit. You just can't put them aside because of your preferences.
Klose will be remembered as a part of 2014 world Cup winners. He will be remembered as the golden boot winner of 2006. People will take his name when talking about all time world cup top scorers.
The bolded part is the contradiction in your words and the reason why they are not that important. Let’s put it that way. If you win a trophy it’s in the history books forever. Records always get broken.
Would he trade those records for a league title or two with Newcastle?
When people talk about great World Cup players in history, there will be dozens mentioned before you get to Klose
The Blackburn team was a very strong team thanks to the millions of Jack Walker and when he first got to Newcastle they were stacked too, thanks to the millions of Sir John Hall. For many years afterwards they were reasonably strong also, though they began to fall off. It’s not like he set the record with Norwich and Watford.
There's no black or white answer on these things, if that's what you looking for. For example, lets say even if Michael Phelps or Usain Bolt records to be broke by some one in future, their legacy will always be in the history books forever, as they did break/hold the record during their time, and was so successful too as they have won alot of gold medal in their career. I still remember Michale Johnson or Carl Lewis, even though they no longer hold their records.
You remember them because they won, which is key. The records always go. If you gave them a choice between the gold medal and a world record, they’d take the medal every time. Because that can’t be taken away (unless you get caught cheating, and sometimes not even then….)
There are plenty of winners of 100m and 200m that not many people remember. For me, it needs a little more than just winning. The record sets you truly apart
This is a strange comment. You've never won any gold medal nor broke world record, how would you know for sure? And isn't that usually the case when people broke world record, they would win gold medal too?
Well I will concede that records matter more in athletics and swimming than they do in football, which is a completely different kind of sport. How many goal records did Maradona have? One that I’m aware of which has already been broken?
But the point is that the gold medal is the eternal thing re the history books, not the record.
Well actually, about two thirds of all the world records in athletics were set outside major championships, so no.
However, football is totally different from athletics. The similarity is the fact that records get broken so that’s not what the sport (football) is about or should be about.
I think this last page or two really shows that he is doing something right at the start of his career....
He's managed his career much better than Ødegaard and he's avoided injuries too. Players like him and Bellingham have made a wise choice to go to a club like Dortmund. Even Sancho who did the same and developed his game has still found it difficult to get up to speed with the top level, if he had tried to do it 2 years earlier he probably wouldn't have made it.
he is alive in the Newcastle folklore as the guy who could have gone to United and won everything, but stayed loyal to them.
The scoring record is key to that legend, as it meant if he can score so much with Newcastle, what would he have done with United or other big clubs.
But did we said people remember him as great world cup players? No we were talking about the goal scoring in world cup.
Sorry but "goals without win" have no value debate is so naff.
that’s not the debate. The debate is centred around making a massive deal of goal records, not goals. I maintain that it’s naff to be as protective of a record as Shearer is when someone will obviously break it. He gets visibly agitated discussing that prospect on the telly. Napoli fans love Maradona because he could have gone to Milan or Juve and won more there. Is his goal record (which was recently broken) key to that love?
Edit: I think the modern obsession with them is tied to the modern obsession with statistics, which I think is due to the influence of American sport.
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It's been an interest for these things as long as goals has been scored in sports. It's not a "modern" obsession. As if the word modern makes it suspect for some reason btw.
Obviously social media makes it more of a match-to-match thing. Like when Haaland scores his CL goal, and a list of other players number of games to reach 21 goals immediately pops up. However, people are interested in it, you know. You are not. Fine. It's called preferences.
So you said it’s not a modern obsession and then showed exactly how it is by explaining how social media trumpets stats and records after every single gameday. It certainly never used to be like that. Which is not better or worse, just different.
I personally think that it stops people from appreciating football properly. I’d have to say that I follow the hoary old eye-test principle and value performances over stats. But then I like to actually enjoy what I’m watching. It’s entertainment and a diversion after all, not life and death (sorry Shanks).
Stats and numbers have their use of course but they can be very misleading and people can manipulate them and present them without context to support virtually any argument.
I was just reading an argument on Twitter where someone was saying that Lewa is a better player than Suarez because of his CL stats. I mean, I don’t have a firm belief either way but you can be sure that the numbers will be presented without any context. Having watched both play, I’d say Suarez at his best was a better player, even though his CL stats are not as good. That’s what I mean.
He has 21 goals in 17 CL games. Never seeing a goalscorer at 21 like him since Brazil Ronaldo. Haaland has much better attitude and mindset to improve than Ronaldo he just needs to avoid injuries.
If he stays fit for most of his career he will be breaking some serious records
If he stays fit for most of his career he will be breaking some serious records
Ronaldo didn't hit 21 CL goals until he was 25 which just puts into perspective how crazy his numbers became into his late 20s and 30s
That’s why I said Brazilian Ronaldo as he won Ballon d’or at 21. Cristiano is always a bad example as his progression from 23 especially in the goal scoring is one of a kind
In 20 years or so who'll be most remembered, Luca Toni, David Villa, Giroud or Klose?
They all where the starting 9s in their national squads which won the world cup. David Villa had the better club career by far, but the most remembered will be Klose because of the record.
That's the way it goes, you are either remembered as being one of the truly bests or because of holding some record.
It may sound vain, but in a team sport holding a personal record is always valuable.
Wow, you think Klose is going to be remembered more than David Villa?? Gotta disagree there
He will be remembered for now as much. He is the all time goalscorer in WC history. Villa obviously was levels above but Klose has that record
No way he gets remembered as much as Villa IMO, record or no record.
So say for example 30 years down the line. Will most know who David Villa is ? Probably not but Klose will always get a mention especially at WC if he holds onto that record.
If he loses the record then it’s no contest but Klose will be remembered for far longer than Villa if he keeps it
You know what's really impressive?
Batistuta's goal record playing for Fiorentina almost all of his career in a team that mostly finished mid-table every season and never being the penalty taker, yet almost always being top-scorer or joint top-scorer in Serie A.
Batigol.
Batistuta's goal record playing for Fiorentina almost all of his career in a team that mostly finished mid-table every season and never being the penalty taker, yet almost always being top-scorer or joint top-scorer in Serie A.
Batigol.
Villa will be remembered more than Klose with or without the record because he was a better player. He was part of one of the greatest club sides of all time and and also part of one of the greatest international sides of all time.
Name me great players from before you were born ? And I don’t mean the elite like Pele etc ? David Villa will be forgot in 30 years when most under 30 never watched him play as how good he was he wasn’t a generational player.
Yet in 30 years when a WC rolls around Klose will be mentioned all the time.
I know lots of great players from before I was born, what are you talking about? And we had a World Cup in 2018, I don’t remember Klose’s name being mentioned once. Plus in 30 years time the record will probably have long been broken making him irrelevant, which was my whole point.
In was mentioned loads of BBC as top goalscorer and yes everyone can name players but David Villa even with how good he is will be forgotten trust me. Even if people mention the Spain team that won 3 tournaments on the bounce Xavi, Iniesta, Ramos will get mentioned before him.
Yes people won’t know how good Klose was or how he played but he will be the top WC scorer ever and if that remains he will always be mentioned for as long as it stands
I think you have seriously underestimated the worth of all time record and legacy here. Regardless of how you rate those players having watched them played week in week out, in future, for those who were born after us, they wouldn't care too much about how good the players from their grandpa era actually were, but they would be always reminded of those who are GOAT or all time greats, or those with the records.
Take Fontaine for example, he hasn't won any major trophy throughout his career, nor did he score alot throughout, but he is still being remembered even today, because of his record in 58 WC. I am sure there were lots of better strikers than him during that time, but people could only remember him above the others (non-elites), who might be better than him, just because of his records.
I mean, just look at his overall career, he scored 227 goals in his club career in 12 years (average 19 goals per season). His overall numbers are actually similar to Klose. Then for France he scored 30 goals in 21 games overall, where 18 goals are scored in 1958 alone. He only have a truly extraordinary year in 1958 WC in terms of goalscoring, before that he only has 3 goals in 3 caps over 5 years period of his international career, and after that in the next 2 years period he managed another 9 goals in 6 games, and his career ends there. Theres nothing, apart from 1958 WC, or during period 1958-1959, to suggest he is a great player at all, yet he is still regarded as football legend, as was often named as best 100 players ever played the game. Truth is, no one would remember him if not for his record in WC, its plain obvious.
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This is what I’ve been saying too him. Maradonna was a world class footballer but his main success was the WC which sent him too stardom level.
Klose isn’t anywhere near Villa but in time the history books especially top goalscorer in WC history(biggest event in the world) will always be remembered.
I have heard of Fontaine because of the record but can't recall any French striker before Platini
I had already forgotten David Villa. But I remembered Fernando Torres, though.
Why are people talking about Klose and Villa on the Haaland thread??
Haalands immense, just enjoy watching him score for fun (until he joins City).
Haalands immense, just enjoy watching him score for fun (until he joins City).
Both top class although Torres fell off a cliff obviously
Villa is a World Cup winner (and has scored in the CL final as well) literally what are you talking about?! Hilarious.
And yeah it’s true about Maradona but does he hold the record for most goals scored in the World Cup? Of course not. It’s his performances that are remembered, same as any other player. That’s why Ronaldo Lima will always be remembered more than Klose despite the fact that Klose managed to statpad his way past him having played a bunch more games.