Erik ten Hag vs Sancho | Sancho back in full training

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Krakenzero said:
I'm sorry I just have to ask again, when did Ten Hag criticized Sancho publicly? Considering that it's the base for every Sancho apologist argument.
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He stated that he was not selected in the squad due to his performances in training.
 
Bondi77 said:
He stated that he was not selected in the squad due to his performances in training.
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Exactly. The very mildest of criticisms. If that's "calling a player out in public" then the player is a baby. He's not even calling into question the footballer's ability, or even really questioning the footballer's overall training habits. It's one week worth of training underperformance (so like 3 days?). He's not saying "he's a poor performer in training." He's saying "he performed badly THIS WEEK only."

How can anyone be on Sancho's side at this point? I was one of the few who were defending him before this too, so it's not like I have a bone to pick with Sancho. People are acting like Ten Hag did a Mourinho, what with the "this is why I pick Lukaku" comment.
 
In Rainbows said:
Exactly. The very mildest of criticisms. If that's "calling a player out in public" then the player is a baby. He's not even calling into question the footballer's ability, or even really questioning the footballer's overall training habits. It's one week worth of training underperformance (so like 3 days?). He's not saying "he's a poor performer in training." He's saying "he performed badly THIS WEEK only."

How can anyone be on Sancho's side at this point? I was one of the few who were defending him before this too, so it's not like I have a bone to pick with Sancho. People are acting like Ten Hag did a Mourinho, what with the "this is why I pick Lukaku" comment.
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He even explicitly stated that this isn’t a disciplinary measure, so that no one would assume a misbehaviour as the reason. It's as much deflecting criticism as possible.
 
Someone said:
Pep rarely does it and wasn't really right when he did. He simply has so much credit so he got away with it, he isn't perfect. We've all seen him and Klopp make mistakes. The difference is that he's been so successful and is pretty much invincible the same way Fergie was with United. If you look at Mourinho who was extremely successful at the beginning of his career, when he started doing it too often he started losing the dressing room too often. Now I'm not claiming that ETH does this frequently, but it still was a mistake and he didn't need to do it. And because we aren't playing well at all, this could harm him.
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I also reckon this resonates differently with Pep as you can see he demands the highest possible standard from his players and it shows on the pitch where you rarely see an underperforming player, he just doesn’t persist with them ever and as a result his teams don’t really have any significant runs of bad form.

It is different with us and ETH as there are obviously players in the team that play regardless of form, and the results are not there either.

I liked how Fergie managed it. He had no patience for lack of effort or lack of care but usually went about it quietly but the respect he was able to garner among players was not really comparable to perhaps any manager in the modern era.
 
el3mel said:
Ten Hag is dealing with this situation like a cry baby rather than a professional. He's hurting the team and Sancho isn't losing anything out of this, only the club. It's just easy to hate on Sancho due to his performance being not good so easy to make him a scapegoat.
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Awful take, as per.
 
el3mel said:
Ten Hag is dealing with this situation like a cry baby rather than a professional. He's hurting the team and Sancho isn't losing anything out of this, only the club. It's just easy to hate on Sancho due to his performance being not good so easy to make him a scapegoat.
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Except that's the most professional way to deal with underperforming overpaid entitled brats of this generation.
 
Someone said:
Pep has credibility that ETH is yet to have, even Arteta in dealing with Aubameyang. ETH on other hand keeps playing players out of form, and just had a terrible start to the season.

I agree that Sancho is generally in the wrong here, but ETH isn't dealing with the situation in a way that could cost him with other players.
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Hopefully that happens and the other turdy players are shipped off as well.
 
I really have no time for a footballer whose unwarranted ego is causing our team/club these sort of issues.

Even if this got sorted I still want him out the door asap. His Attitude is toxic regardless of his reasons for acting like this. He won’t be joining any club that’s got champions league or top level ambitions which tells you all you need to know about how his actions are being interpreted by everybody else.
 
Sarni said:
I also reckon this resonates differently with Pep as you can see he demands the highest possible standard from his players and it shows on the pitch where you rarely see an underperforming player, he just doesn’t persist with them ever and as a result his teams don’t really have any significant runs of bad form.

It is different with us and ETH as there are obviously players in the team that play regardless of form, and the results are not there either.

I liked how Fergie managed it. He had no patience for lack of effort or lack of care but usually went about it quietly but the respect he was able to garner among players was not really comparable to perhaps any manager in the modern era.
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It's extremely easy to drop underperforming players when you have amazing depth throughout the squad like Pep does.

Who can ETH bring in? Drop Rashford for Garnacho, somebody who has consistently been poor when starting and has been poor in general this season? Drop Bruno for Mount, who hasn't got going yet? Antony for Pellistri, who brings even less to the team? Casemiro for Scott? Most of the players that people are complaining about don't really have anybody pushing them for their spot.

Now I do think ETH should try to rotate those players a little more than he does, but he's in an incredibly difficult position. At least Rashford and Bruno have shown what they can do for the team if he can get them into form.
 
ayushreddevil9 said:
Hopefully that happens and the other turdy players are shipped off as well.
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That's my point. We aren't playing well and he needs to be clever and get rid of players the right way. If he loses the dressing room he won't have enough time to get rid of anyone.
 
Someone said:
That's my point. We aren't playing well and he needs to be clever and get rid of players the right way. If he loses the dressing room he won't have enough time to get rid of anyone.
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If we are a serious club we will stick by the manager but i agree they deal with numbers and replacing the manager will be easier for them.
 
Red in STL said:
What is he supposed to do?

Sancho called him a liar in a public forum, he's lucky he gets to train with anybody never mind the academy, given the leaks at OT, if EtH was wrong about Sancho we'd have heard about it, but we haven't, or at least I haven't, so I'm thinking he was spot on
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Stop acting like a cry baby for once. The player isn't forced to apologize as long as the relationship is professional and the player trains and follows his instructions on the pitch.

At the moment the only one getting hurt by this is the club. Sancho isn't losing anything as he's away from a manager who clearly doesn't favor him, he's getting paid weekly and losing the clubs millions and can stay like this till Ten Hag leaves.

It's a personal issue under no circumstances should have stayed for this long but Ten Hag just took it personally. He's the one who started it if anything.
 
Maybe he should apologise but I guess it must be hard if you fundamentally believe you are right. Not sure I'd compromise my beliefs for kicking a football...
 
Litch said:
Maybe he should apologise but I guess it must be hard if you fundamentally believe you are right. Not sure I'd compromise my beliefs for kicking a football...
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Even if you felt you were fundamentally right and the manager was scapegoating you, you'd just apologise so you could train and play again, after all, surely that's the dream no matter what else is going on and you wouldn't want to let your teammates down because you can't rebuild that trust once it's gone. Sancho isn't stupid, he surely knows Ten Hag won't last the season even if Sancho is selected every week so he's surely doing all this because he wants out of the club.

From what we understand, Sancho and Ten Hag sat down and went through the videos of training sessions and Ten Hag pointed out the points where he felt he wasn't training up to standard and Sancho disagreed with his observations and comments from the training videos. Where do you go from there? You've got a player who believes he knows more than the manager.
 
crossy1686 said:
Even if you felt you were fundamentally right and the manager was scapegoating you, you'd just apologise so you could train and play again, after all, surely that's the dream no matter what else is going on and you wouldn't want to let your teammates down because you can't rebuild that trust once it's gone. Sancho isn't stupid, he surely knows Ten Hag won't last the season even if Sancho is selected every week so he's surely doing all this because he wants out of the club.

From what we understand, Sancho and Ten Hag sat down and went through the videos of training sessions and Ten Hag pointed out the points where he felt he wasn't training up to standard and Sancho disagreed with his observations and comments from the training videos. Where do you go from there? You've got a player who believes he knows more than the manager.
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Its a job and if my manager criticises me about something I dont believe is right, Im not apologising. If we cant compromise, then I leave. Sometimes integrity and principles are more important even if others dont agree with them.

Its not like managers are always right....
 
To me what this shows is how much Sancho values the club and his own career. That he seemingly doesn't care what happens to both all in order to not apologise for the post says a lot about him as a player mentally. Even looking past the fact that all evidence points to him just not being good enough for the prem and united, there is no place for a player with that mentality at united.
 
Litch said:
Its a job and if my manager criticises me about something I dont believe is right, Im not apologising. If we cant compromise, then I leave. Sometimes integrity and principles are more important even if others dont agree with them.

Its not like managers are always right....
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No, they're not. But when a manager tells you you're not training right, I think he's generally telling the truth as a player rarely gets told in public. So, in this case I'm generally inclined to believe ETH.

Also, what happens in training generally reflects on a matchday and what we're hearing and have seen from Sancho when he's played matches up.
 
SirFergie said:
No, they're not. But when a manager tells you you're not training right, I think he's generally telling the truth as a player rarely gets told in public. So, in this case I'm generally inclined to believe ETH.

Also, what happens in training generally reflects on a matchday and what we're hearing and have seen from Sancho when he's played matches up.
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Fine. So we must therefore believe 21 other players are? Someone really believes that since he has been here, no other players have done?
 
Litch said:
Fine. So we must therefore believe 21 other players are? Someone really believes that since he has been here, no other players have done?
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Ah, here we are with the 'whataboutery' again.

ETH believes Sancho isn't putting the required effort in, and I'm generally inclined to believe him based on what I've seen on the pitch.
 
We really miss players like Sancho on a day like today. If only he would be on the pitch, you could feel assured that he'd put in a mercurial performance.

fecking not. What a geebag.
 
Litch said:
Its a job and if my manager criticises me about something I dont believe is right, Im not apologising. If we cant compromise, then I leave. Sometimes integrity and principles are more important even if others dont agree with them.

Its not like managers are always right....
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They're not, but it's your career also. If you can't put your ego aside to prove someone wrong for a second you'll never get anywhere in life. How do you think that looks on you also? Manager calls you out, you leave because he called you out. It's now your word against his and you're the one that left so it certainly doesn't look good on you.
 
crossy1686 said:
Even if you felt you were fundamentally right and the manager was scapegoating you, you'd just apologise so you could train and play again, after all, surely that's the dream no matter what else is going on and you wouldn't want to let your teammates down
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The issue with this is that Sancho obviously believes he doesn't get a fair chance from EtH. And that means he doesn't believe he even gets the opportunity to help his teammates (or let them actively down). So why apologize, train under a manager you believe is wrongdoing you, when you can instead train with the reserves or whatever in a hopefully better climate? And on top, when EtH gets sacked you can play the victim card to come back under a new manager.

I am sure his first assumption is wrong, but when you accept that basic belief it is actually pretty sensible behaviour from Sancho.
crossy1686 said:
They're not, but it's your career also. If you can't put your ego aside to prove someone wrong for a second you'll never get anywhere in life. How do you think that looks on you also? Manager calls you out, you leave because he called you out. It's now your word against his and you're the one that left so it certainly doesn't look good on you.
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You can only prove someone wrong who is willing to give you the chance to do that. If you think that this person already has made his mind up, then it is useless to even try.

And if you leave what's developing into a dumpster fire after a fight with the manager responsible for it, you don't look bad but look like someone who saw it coming and wasn't listened to.
 
stefan92 said:
The issue with this is that Sancho obviously believes he doesn't get a fair chance from EtH. And that means he doesn't believe he even gets the opportunity to help his teammates (or let them actively down). So why apologize, train under a manager you believe is wrongdoing you, when you can instead train with the reserves or whatever in a hopefully better climate? And on top, when EtH gets sacked you can play the victim card to come back under a new manager.

I am sure his first assumption is wrong, but when you accept that basic belief it is actually pretty sensible behaviour from Sancho.
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He played all preseason and Antony was out of the team while all this was going on, he was playing until the Arsenal game. If the manager doesn't fancy you then you find out what you can do to get games, you don't sulk and refuse to train or come in late because you're not getting picked. Sancho has burned too many bridges on the footballing side to come back into the fold now, it doesn't matter who the manager is.
 
SirFergie said:
Ah, here we are with the 'whataboutery' again.

ETH believes Sancho isn't putting the required effort in, and I'm generally inclined to believe him based on what I've seen on the pitch.
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Whataboutery is no different than 'inclined to believe'....

If what you see on the pitch is the barometer, what you inclined to believe about other players and the managers tactics too?

Like said, 21 players much be meeting the standards as hes not called any others out...someone turning up late is different. Lets not forget, he didnt even travel. I suspect the issues are much more deep-rooted.

I think if we hadnt lost the game in that way, Erik doesnt say anything and since he reverted back to how he responded previously.

I think if both had their time again, neither would have responded in that way...
 
crossy1686 said:
They're not, but it's your career also. If you can't put your ego aside to prove someone wrong for a second you'll never get anywhere in life. How do you think that looks on you also? Manager calls you out, you leave because he called you out. It's now your word against his and you're the one that left so it certainly doesn't look good on you.
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I think your journey to becoming a 75m player at his age, hes made more decisions right than wrong. Lets not forget as a young man, he left of his own volition to go to another country, league etc. I think hes already proven a degree of character at that age.

Not saying he's not wrong or right, just saying when these things happen which are unprecedented, probably thats because it is. Like said, this is more than just football....not different than a player being sent away for months for non-football reasons!!!
 
Rashford and Antony can do whatever shit they want on the pitch and they will never be criticized or dropped. Sancho drops poor performance, gets critcizied in public then banished from the team because he dared to respond and doesn't want to say sorry.

No matter how you look into it, Ten Hag is a hypocrite and unprofessional manager.
 
el3mel said:
Rashford and Antony can do whatever shit they want on the pitch and they will never be criticized or dropped. Sancho drops poor performance, gets critcizied in public then banished from the team because he dared to respond and doesn't want to say sorry.

No matter how you look into it, Ten Hag is a hypocrite and unprofessional manager.
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As much as I get why Sancho reacted. Theres nothing to be gained from him not apologising. Unless offcourse he really doesnt enjoy playing football then he is living the dream. Getting paid shit loads to essentially stay fit.
 
One of the very few reasons I want EtH to stay is so that still tw@t doesn't get his way.
 
I hope we don't fall into the trap of reinstating this cnut when Erik goes.

Both need to go. Both are useless for different reasons.
 
Both need to go. The club will be absolutely gagging to bring Sancho back if ETH goes first though. Anything to avoid a financial hit.
 
Surely can't be any worse than the sorry lot that occupy our wings at the minute. Not like he was much good and he's no angel, but I feel like since that row the team has looked less spirited and maybe lost the dressing room?
 
RedStarUnited said:
As much as I get why Sancho reacted. Theres nothing to be gained from him not apologising. Unless offcourse he really doesnt enjoy playing football then he is living the dream. Getting paid shit loads to essentially stay fit.
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There's no reason for him to apologize either. He can play the long game and waits till Ten Hag leaves and he's not losing anything in the process. The point is I can understand why Sancho will feel as a scapegoat when you look at Antony shitting the bed and yet plays every game and never gets criticized
 
On the bright side, as least ETH has shown that he does have the ol' "It's a tactical decision" throwaway line in his locker.
 
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