Erik ten Hag | 2024/25

[JPRouve]

What I find funny is 90% of the forum was on the ETH bandwagon before he got here. And vehemently so, treated him like the next Pep/Klopp.

Which makes sense. He looked like a very promising candidate. The issue is that people don't accept this reality, nearly all managers that are given a chance to manage a bigger club were doing a good to very good job in their previous club but nearly none of them will succeed at the top. That's why it makes no sense to be stubborn and refuse to accept that ETH was a great candidate in 2022 and he proved to not be good enough.

 

[Zed 101]

I actually think Charrager is the one being obtuse. When you run a football club you can't just sack for the sake of sacking and it needs to be more measured. They didn't really find anyone who they felt would be a worthwhile improvement and saw better value in backing the manager.

Nevilles point if I'm not mistaken is that decision would need conviction now by giving him time, until Christmas or so rather than just the first few games of the season.

Nevilles point is not and was never "ten hag is the right man for these guys". It was more "the right man doesn't look like he's in the open market so they've decided to roll with what they have first".

I think actually the point is INEOS only go looking if they don't think ETH is the man for the job, the fact that they didn't manage to find a replacement that fit their profile doesn't alter that.

We know that INEOS spoke to at least McKenna and Tuchel, we do not know why they were not progressed, it may be nothing to do with the footballing side.

The fact that INEOS went looking is the be all and end all in this, it doesn't mean that they think ETH is right for the job in any way shape or form, keeping him was a means to an end.

You can pretty much guarantee 2 things:

• One reason that RVN was brought in is to potentially act as caretaker
• ETH would be gone tomorrow if the right profile manager became available

In no way shape or form do INEOS' actions mean they have any confidence in ETH

 

[stefan92]

What I find funny is 90% of the forum was on the ETH bandwagon before he got here. And vehemently so, treated him like the next Pep/Klopp.

Well, he showed promising performances before, so it was justified to want him at United. I also was looking forward to that. Probably not on the "next Pep/Klopp" bandwagon, but still.

Nonetheless I simply think by now it is clear that he made wrong decisions (that happens to everybody) and dug himself a hole he won't leave by being too stubborn (that's Dutch). So it won't work out in the long run. But better now thank him for two trophies and be done with that tactical disaster he thinks to be the way forward.

 

[troylocker]

I'll give him until the next international break.

Then we should ring up Tuchel and tell him to cut his sabbatical short, break time is over.

Why wait? We're already 6 points behind the top and 4 points behind the top 5. Have you seen any signs of improvement from last season in his approach to the games or anything that suggests that he is on to something? It looks like we're not even remotely prepared for the games we play.

 

[Alex99]

Surely we're past the point of being fussy though? It feels like we're sticking by him out of blind hope at this stage as all results for the past 18 months point to another mediocre league season. We're sleep walking our way to another shite season.

Honestly, I think the majority of the Managers in the PL would be able to match a 50% win rate from 77 games. I think people put too much emphasis on the difficulty of managing United. Hiring someone that's actually capable would be a good start and if they show themselves not to be capable get rid ruthlessly.

This notion that we have to find the next Sir Alex is frustrating. If it happens, it'll happen naturally, I.E The Manager we employ is successful and with success brings longevity. Until then, we need to employ Managers that play modern enjoyable football. If results don't meet our aspirations then we sack and try again. We certainly don't continue betting on a dead fish.

I know some will say that ETH has been successful. Domestic cups are a bonus reward, they shouldn't be the only shining beacon in a shit storm of a season. We are not a cup only team. The league should always be out aspirations and sacrificing league position to attempt to win a trophy is to me counter productive. Get us challenging for the title then we can talk domestic cups.

Is it being fussy to not just hire the first interested guy?

It seems highly likely that we sat Ten Hag down and made him plead his case for staying, and then any potential candidates for replacing him had to give a better pitch than that.

After that, it seems likely that we were simply rejected by a couple of targets, for whatever reason, and then anyone else we spoke to that was interested, fell short of selling themselves.

He's started the season on thin ice, and it's already started cracking. If we don't see improvements soon, he'll be gone regardless of an immediate replacement, but I don't think it was being fussy to not just jump at someone like De Zerbi (who had a shite season at Brighton).

 

[VP89]

I think actually the point is INEOS only go looking if they don't think ETH is the man for the job, the fact that they didn't manage to find a replacement that fit their profile doesn't alter that.

We know that INEOS spoke to at least McKenna and Tuchel, we do not know why they were not progressed, it may be nothing to do with the footballing side.

The fact that INEOS went looking is the be all and end all in this, it doesn't mean that they think ETH is right for the job in any way shape or form, keeping him was a means to an end.

You can pretty much guarantee 2 things:

• One reason that RVN was brought in is to potentially act as caretaker
• ETH would be gone tomorrow if the right profile manager became available

In no way shape or form do INEOS' actions mean they have any confidence in ETH

And most of this is fine, but Nevilles view that hel likely get till Christmas isn't any less true. Charrager jumped on him because he wanted to stoke fire and purposely be obtuse.

If the right profile isn't available in the summer, he won't be sacked before Christmas unless he goes on an atrocious run, or Ancelotti breaks from Real and wants to return to the PL. In the meantime Ten Hag will have a fair shake, with the onus being on him to convince fans and the board from a state of doubt, rather than a neutral state. It just means he has less margin for error.

 

[Fortitude]

It's not even version 2.0, we aren't pressing higher and we are as bad at it as we were last season. Last season the pressing line was at the edge of the opposing box.

For my own sanity, I am trying to disconnect from last season. Failing, but trying!

 

[JPRouve]

Carragher suggests he has 'seen this at Liverpool' then evokes Klopp replacing Rodgers.

Of course, there is no Klopp on offer to us now.

Carragher does better in the argument but evades key talking points, is disingenuous regarding Liverpool and, crucially, cannot name a successor.

All too typical.

We say that there was no Klopp but at the same time Tuchel was available and interviewed, as far as I know nothing suggests that Simone Inzaghi was unavailable and there was a number of other decent options. I like Klopp a lot but people are inflating his achievements and resume especially before 2015.

 

[golden_blunder]

I think that they both have a point.

I made a similar point to the one Neville makes, there was a case to keep ETH if for some reason they weren't sold on anyone else. And Carragher also has a point because when you reach a stage where you are actively interviewing prospective managers then two things are true, you have no faith in your current manager and you actually identified alternatives that suits you on paper.

The issue is then about things that no one outside of the club and the candidates will know. What introduced doubts about the candidates and are these things reasonable?

Exactly my point. They were both valid but they spent 20 minutes shouting over each other

 

[golden_blunder]

Carragher suggests he has 'seen this at Liverpool' then evokes Klopp replacing Rodgers.

Of course, there is no Klopp on offer to us now.

Carragher does better in the argument but evades key talking points, is disingenuous regarding Liverpool and, crucially, cannot name a successor.

All too typical.

Klopp? I hope that the team go to meet and talk with him at some point over the next few months, we’d be remiss not to

 

[SuperiorXI]

What I find funny is 90% of the forum was on the ETH bandwagon before he got here. And vehemently so, treated him like the next Pep/Klopp.

Football fan opinion changes like the wind

 

[Bocca9978]

What I find funny is 90% of the forum was on the ETH bandwagon before he got here. And vehemently so, treated him like the next Pep/Klopp.

Unfortunately we are not psychic. There was hope. It's now very much gone.
Sad times.

 

[Zumbi]

The bit in bold may be true, but it isn't enough by itself. Rangnick met the same criteria, but nobody in the dressing room would listen to him beyond a single half against Palace. We've had similar experiences under Moyes, Van Gaal, and Mourinho. There's a very good chance that the lesser lights in your list like McKenna or Frank would be completely ignored. There's so much pressure at United, it's crushed managerial legends, most talented but less established managers wouldn't stand a chance.

In terms of the candidates you listed that are more promising - Nagelsmann, Emery, Amorim - how exactly would we go about getting them immediately? I think it's especially naïve to expect Emery to bail out on Villa in the Champions League where he has a huge amount of credit built up, to join us in a comparatively worse situation. Amorim is also in the Champions League. I think with both of them the amount of money it would cost to get them on board at this time would be too much to fit with the INEOS approach to not get ripped off. We refused to be held to ransom for Ashworth, choosing to go without instead, so I expect we'd rather wait to get the right manager in than go back to being shaken down.

Still, it all comes down to what the INEOS team think is the best way forward. I'm happy to trust them to make the good, well informed decisions, we'll have to see what happens.

Of course my brief summary of why various candidates would be better than Ten Hag isn’t enough for you - I could write paragraphs and paragraphs and you’d still find objections to each one. But that’s because your focus is a negative, fear-based case against hypothetical replacements, rather than a positive case for keeping Ten Hag.

Thankfully that’s completely irrelevant to the deep dive the Ineos team will have been doing on replacements since May. As I predicted many pages ago, you’re only asking for names so you can pick holes in any and every alternative because you’d rather stick with the failure that Ten Hag has proved to be. Fair enough, but focussing on possible future failings of hypothetical replacements over the actual, current failings of the guy who’s currently overseeing relegation form is bizarre. Actual failures are more damaging to our club that hypothetical failures. And that’s where we seem to differ.

You could find some similarity between every single candidate and every single failed ex Utd manager since Fergie, but I can more easily counter with the fact that Ten Hag has already lead us to a worse PL and CL performance than any of them. So again, that seems to me to be a fundamentally flawed argument in favour of keeping him. You could use that exact same justification to never ever change the manager, which is obviously an absurdity.

It’s been pointed out to you again and again that there is no formula or criteria that will determine success for new appointment. Failure is more likely than not for any of them, because success for Ud means the PL and CL, and that’s an incredibly hard level to get to. Someone can have an impeccable record and experience and CV and still fail. Someone could have a much more limited CV and succeed. Whoever is ultimately chosen, there will be enough potential positives about their candidacy to make them more attractive than keeping someone who we know for a fact is not cutting it.

As for attainability, it’s easy to propose hypothetical obstacles for every single possible candidate on the planet, but that’s just not a sound basis for concluding that not a single one is attainable. We don’t even know if any of the names suggested are on their list, and you have no more insight on them being unattainable than I do on them being attainable. Unless you’ve been reaching out to their agents to check, it’s nothing but baseless speculation on either side. And that is also not a sound argument for not replacing a failing manager.

When you look at the bigger picture, it’s hard to imagine that Ineos wouldn’t be able to lure a replacement, no matter what time of season it is. Big clubs finding new managers mid season is a perfectly normal and routine thing that happens in football and there’s no reason to think doing so will be peculiarly elusive only for Utd. That’s just something you seem to have pulled from thin air because you’d rather see Ten Hag sink another season first, at which point you seem to think all your hypothetical objections to possible replacements will magically disappear.

 

[stevoc]

Klopp? I hope that the team go to meet and talk with him at some point over the next few months, we’d be remiss not to

There's probably no chance he'd even entertain managing United.

 

[JPRouve]

For my own sanity, I am trying to disconnect from last season. Failing, but trying!

You can look at it from a pre Xs and Os point of view and it doesn't actually hurt. Also I don't know if it helps but I think that I had an epiphany the other day but it's kind of frightening if I'm right. The way the team operates is meant for Cruijffs 334, with the for being a sort of diamond and 33 being relatively narrow.

So in possession it would looke like:

De Ligt---Casemiro--Martinez
----------------------------------------
Mazraoui-Mainoo--Dalot
----------------------------------------
---------------Bruno
Amad---------------Rashford
--------------Zirkzee

Now this is a very difficult thing to do, because by default you purposefully leave lots of space and has many coverage rules to follow and it requires a lot of running as Bielsa has shown with his 3331. It's also better if you have someone like Blind as your fullback than Dalot. If I remember correctly there is some similarity to his 2018-2019 Ajax team with De Jong dropping to form a back three and Tagliafico-Mazraoui operating as wingbacks more than normal fullbacks.

 

[RedBanker]

Klopp? I hope that the team go to meet and talk with him at some point over the next few months, we’d be remiss not to

Absolutely. One can only wonder what it would have been if we hired him Outta Dortmund years back.

 

[Borys]

We played a more defensive brand of football under Mourinho & Ole, and look where that got us. And yes, the scatter gun approach to buying players which we’ve seen for the past decade has resulted in a squad not fit for a big club like Manchester United. That’s not exempting Ten Hag from criticism, but describing the reality that any manager at the club will have to deal with.

Did we? I don't think so, at least under Ole we scored more goals and we had some good periods. We played more conservative football but that was to our strength. I certainly don't think we're playing more attacking football now. We're pressing higher but that doesn't translate in anything other than tennis matches.

 

[troylocker]

What I find funny is 90% of the forum was on the ETH bandwagon before he got here. And vehemently so, treated him like the next Pep/Klopp.

I was very positive to him when he was hired. I really believed and hoped it would be a good choice and match. Now, two and a half years later, when we have seen him in action here over time, it's ok to change your opinion on that. Clearly out of his deapth and not the right man for the job. We will get manager appointments wrong in the future as well, even though they look good on paper. Happens all the time.

 

[Tom Van Persie]

 

[JPRouve]

It's not raining unless water falls from sky.

 

[Leftback99]

What I find funny is 90% of the forum was on the ETH bandwagon before he got here. And vehemently so, treated him like the next Pep/Klopp.

I was less so than others but either way the decision was clearly wrong so move on.

 

[Eddy_JukeZ]

Ye but we’ve slightly changed systems and tactics this year. Slots the first one to call us out on it. We press a lot higher with the front 2 this year.

We don't though. There was a graphic posted in the thread and our defensive line in terms of height is in the bottom half.

 

[SparcMac]

Both Four Four Two and Football Made Simple made beautiful tactical analysis of the game.

One problem was Casemiro for sure, because he doesn't have that passing range nor progression game, but the other part is that we didn't see that fast enough, either take out Mainoo and bring in Eriksen and move him behind Casemiro too have this passing midfielder to unlock the press or make Bruno come to offer overload on the wing like KDB did in City's first game vs Chelsea. Where it took one of their midfielders out of the midfield and caused their press to fail.

We'll see how ETH manages that next game and whether Casemiro starts.

 

[Oranges038]

Just noticing how almost every thread is being polluted with ETH nonsense.

It's becoming tiresome.

 

[Vault Dweller]

Both Four Four Two and Football Made Simple made beautiful tactical analysis of the game.

One problem was Casemiro for sure, because he doesn't have that passing range nor progression game, but the other part is that we didn't see that fast enough, either take out Mainoo and bring in Eriksen and move him behind Casemiro too have this passing midfielder to unlock the press or make Bruno come to offer overload on the wing like KDB did in City's first game vs Chelsea. Where it took one of their midfielders out of the midfield and caused their press to fail.

We'll see how ETH manages that next game and whether Casemiro starts.

See that's a good point that I've been thinking about. If he is obsessed with having this base midfielder who can pass quickly and through the lines, why not move Casemiro further forward then and play Eriksen, in any variation of the midfielders we have? The current way obviously isn't working and I would have a bit more respect for him if he at least tried changing personnel as he's sticking with this way of playing.

 

[golden_blunder]

There's probably no chance he'd even entertain managing United.

Why?

 

[GoodTimes]

He’s toast, it’s only a matter of time. His (and the teams) momentum has been in free fall ever since the cup win against Newcastle.

 

[crossy1686]

They have just had their first proper window and by their own account have admitted they could not find a better manager. They're not about to just sack him after three games, this is not realistic and you know it.

He has delivered two trophies which remain the barometer of success no matter what stat bros will tell you. No one will remember XG in 10 years. It was commonly agreed upon that last season we were marred by unprecedented injuries and the squad was still in dire need of investment.

Overall I think a lot of the negativity and wanting him sacked is an emotional reaction to the poor start.

Yeah, nothing screams we won’t sack the manager and we’ll back him quite like spending most of the summer trying to replace him.

No, it’s not commonly agreed. That’s an excuse people who are desperate to support the manager agreed whilst the rest of us pointed out that even with his preferred 11 we were equally as dog shit.

The negativity is a reaction to a poor 18 months being carried over into a new season when we were all promised this would stop once he got backed and has his ‘own players’ who were fit. Here we are, the excuses are totally worn out, times up.

 

[LankyHoggie]

Why?

Liverpool legend and icon until the end of days, not a chance he would ever consider managing Manchester United.
He’s had a special connection with the fans and the community.

Could you see SAF managing Liverpool or Manchester City at any point after cementing his status as Mancheter United icon?

We’re not talking about Heinze here.
I can’t even imagine Klopp managing Bayern even though he’s less associated with Dortmund than he is with Liverpool at this point, but even Bayern would make more sense than United, and they could offer him the same money as we could.

Not a chance, no doobt bout it.

 

[crossy1686]

Klopp? I hope that the team go to meet and talk with him at some point over the next few months, we’d be remiss not to

I said this in the other thread but as highly as unlikely as it is we ever get him, someone needs to put a massive offer on the table and see what happens.

 

[Eddy_JukeZ]

I said this in the other thread but as highly as unlikely as it is we ever get him, someone needs to put a massive offer on the table and see what happens.

I'm pretty sure it'd be the most impossible managerial appointment you can think of.

 

[golden_blunder]

I'm pretty sure it'd be the most impossible managerial appointment you can think of.

Which is why we should try it. At least have Ashworth and Wilcox sell their vision, changes behind the scenes, no longer “Disneyland”, want to build a successful team that will consistently challenge for PL and CL. Be better than Pep. Money there to support him where he feels it’s needed.

Appeal to his competitive spirit. We might be surprised.

Then if he says no, he says no.

 

[Cloud7]

What I find funny is 90% of the forum was on the ETH bandwagon before he got here. And vehemently so, treated him like the next Pep/Klopp.

What point are you trying to make here?

ETH looked promising at the time he was hired. Hiring him then was absolutely the right move. It’s just not worked out, but it happens. Signing Schneiderlin was also the right move at the time, but it just didn’t work out, it happens.

 

[TheRealRedShady]

Did we? I don't think so, at least under Ole we scored more goals and we had some good periods. We played more conservative football but that was to our strength. I certainly don't think we're playing more attacking football now. We're pressing higher but that doesn't translate in anything other than tennis matches.

We've scored 9 if I recall under Ole, and many games ended with 4-5 goals. We were manace untill the environment inside the dressing room changed when someone took Ole's off the wheel and signed players he didn't actually wanted, as a coach it's a hard blow and state of not believing in the coach. We were much batter at attacking and defending, scoring late goals and dominating games, lots of United academy and win or die mentality. That's why we loved Ole, it was old United all over again...

 

[SuperiorXI]

Yeah, nothing screams we won’t sack the manager and we’ll back him quite like spending most of the summer trying to replace him.

No, it’s not commonly agreed. That’s an excuse people who are desperate to support the manager agreed whilst the rest of us pointed out that even with his preferred 11 we were equally as dog shit.

The negativity is a reaction to a poor 18 months being carried over into a new season when we were all promised this would stop once he got backed and has his ‘own players’ who were fit. Here we are, the excuses are totally worn out, times up.

"Most of the summer"? They told Erik he'd be staying only a month after the end of the season and then cracked on with getting players in, so you're wrong. They highlighted in their assessment that they considered Ten Hag to be the right man for the job, they made their decision so they aren't going to just change their minds after only 3 games.

It is a question of consistency, it was such an injury ravaged season he was barely able to field the 11, and when he did get a chance he won us the FA Cup v.s. the best team in the world currently. The proof is in the pudding.

You are right about time being up, it is time for him to put up or shut up, but as I said, Ineos won't sack him so soon, he will be given the opportunity and time to show whether he can do it or not. I think by Christmas they will have another decision to make.

 

[Rojofiam]

Liverpool legend and icon until the end of days, not a chance he would ever consider managing Manchester United.
He’s had a special connection with the fans and the community.

Could you see SAF managing Liverpool or Manchester City at any point after cementing his status as Mancheter United icon?

We’re not talking about Heinze here.
I can’t even imagine Klopp managing Bayern even though he’s less associated with Dortmund than he is with Liverpool at this point, but even Bayern would make more sense than United, and they could offer him the same money as we could.

Not a chance, no doobt bout it.

I don't even understand how people would want him here. I wouldn't want him at United no matter how great he is.

 

[golden_blunder]

I don't even understand how people would want him here. I wouldn't want him at United no matter how great he is.

Having an attitude like that only hinders progression. If Klopp and say Pep were available you wouldn’t talk to them at least because of the teams they managed previously? Its nonsense.

 

[SuperiorXI]

Having an attitude like that only hinders progression. If Klopp and say Pep were available you wouldn’t talk to them at least because of the teams they managed previously? Its nonsense.

Klopp would never come here, come on. Nor would Pep.

 

[LankyHoggie]

Having an attitude like that only hinders progression. If Klopp and say Pep were available you wouldn’t talk to them at least because of the teams they managed previously? Its nonsense.

Pep I would have no issues with, City isn’t a real club, its not even the same club, their history starts from the FA Cup semi final in 2011.

But Klopp? He is so deep rooted in the Scouse folklore I wouldn’t even trust him, I would genuinely believe every loss would be self sabotage to decimate whatever is left of this great club.

No thanks, we would have to find our own Klopp, they’re out there.
Its just really hard to find one when every manager we hire gets 2-3 years and millions to spend even if their incompetence is obvious 6 months in.

Life is too short for that.

 

[golden_blunder]

Klopp would never come here, come on. Nor would Pep.

Klopp is a big enough character to handle it. I could imagine him saying something like:

“Yes, I loved my time at Liverpool and I will always be immensely proud of the success we had. They will always be a part of me.

But I’m refreshed, feeling good and this challenge that I’ve accepted, how could I turn it down? Sir Jim and Dan Ashworth, they’ve sold the Manchester United project to me and we will work hard to get them back to the levels that this huge club deserves. “