Erik ten Hag | 2024/25
- Thread starter Cheimoon
- Start date
I'm sorry for you
It’s what I have been saying for a while and the post above showing that we only won 5 or 6 of the last 17 games strengthens that notion, his job would be in question at pretty much any team in PL bar relegation fodders with these results. Poor finish to last season, getting progressively worse since League Cup final, playing disjointed football that cannot in the long term bring good results.
West Ham finished one spot below us and decided it was time for them to move on from Moyes, who also won them a trophy (arguably a more important one than FA Cup was for us, given this was their first European cup). I genuinely think some of the mid table teams have higher ambitions and definitely much less patience for mediocrity than we do.
He would 100% have been sacked if we lost that cup final. That’s my biggest concern with INEOS right now. Knee jerk decision making. Although if they’re playing the long game until the right target comes up then whatever. Still, the summer transfers were clearly influenced by him just buying a load more ex Ajax.
Mourinho lost the FA Cup Final in 2018, next season got sacked after 7 wins in 17 league games
I’m sorry but this is exactly the kind of post that annoys me. Not that I don’t think that fans are not in their right to criticize the manager or state their opinions, it’s because it’s argued from a position as it’s a fact. But actually, it comes over to me as completely untrue.
First of all, Ten Hag worked under Pep Guardiola as a young coach and both are Cruijff disciples. So to state that Ten Hag doesn’t understand or have the nous to understand the way Pep prefers to play is highly unlikely to say the least.
In terms of how the midfield is set up, nowadays most of the better teams in the EPL will set the midfield up the same way as United as they’re trying to play through the press, so they need to find a pass through the press and will position midfielders behind the back of the opposition midfielders pressing. Unfortunately, our midfielders don’t seem to have had the quality & skillset to make relatively simple balls over relatively short distances as our rivals do over the past 2 seasons. We keep giving easy balls away and are so sloppy. So if we criticize the manager for being able to improve our players abilities, or for buying a load of crap players with the wrong mindset, then yeah I feel that’s a fair argument. Unfortunately, our players aren’t in the same league as Rodri, Bernardo Silva, and de Bruyne.
Now of course there’s room to argue that we should set up more defensively, but we played that way under the previous 2 managers, which turned out to be a nightmare as in order to win to win something those type of tactics have become obsolete in the era of the high pressing game and/or counter pressing. And the previous 2 managers didn’t have the same personnel problems Ten Hag has had to deal with.
I’m not trying advocate for Ten Hag to stay, I think that if things haven’t improved in 3 months time then he needs to go because of the way he’s been backed this summer, but at least give the manager some respect because he’ll have a lot more footballing nous or knowledge than any single poster in this forum.
I went through the reasons in various other posts. The reasons largely centered around comparisons with Ten Hag, like the fact that those managers are doing more impressive things with fewer resources than Ten Hag is. They get their teams playing better football, setting them up in a way that makes them harder to play through whilst also being more cohesive in possession - which are both very obvious failings of ten Hag’s set up.
And that goes back to your claim that changing the manager is change for change sake, versus my argument that it would be change for the very specific purpose of trying to improve the performance of our team. Because this discussion about bringing a new manager in isn’t happening in a vacuum. It’s happening specifically because our current manager is underperforming so badly. Therefore it’s not simply a case of assessing each potential candidates record independently. You assess them in comparison to the other option, which is keeping Ten Hag. And to me that’s a much bigger gamble than trying someone else, because we already know he’s not working out how we hoped, and it is already hurting us as a club. Finishing 8th is damaging. Finishing bottom in a CL group is damaging. Getting spanked by teams up and down the table, at home and away, is damaging. Winning only six PL games in the last 17 is damaging. Setting new unwanted record after new unwanted record is damaging. So the sooner we put an end to this the better, both short term and long term.
As for the questions regarding whether any of these managers are attainable, my answer is yes, I would expect Manchester Utd to be able to lure a suitable candidate as soon as they become set on doing so. I can’t predict which one, and you can dismiss each and every name that’s been proposed with various questions and doubts all you like, but I just don’t think the notion that suitable candidates are attainable only at the end of the season but not during the season is well founded. It might cost more money, but managers move between clubs mid season every single season. To think that it’s somehow unachievable for a club like Utd is laughable. Do you really, honestly think it’s beyond Ineos to identify and lure a replacement mid season?
Indeed, in this circumstance it’s much more likely to happen mid season, because they’re less likely to be even looking for a new manager if Ten Hag does well enough to still in post by May. If he goes, it’ll be sooner than that, and it’ll be because they’ve found someone they think will do better.
Posted by ifightdragons...
As high as 11th!
Reaching for the stars!
Thanks but you can save that for yourself.
I already have enough of feeling sorry simply by watching this side continue to be the laughing stock of the footballing world for yet another season...
The memes and jeers just encapsulate our seemingly never-ending banter era.
There isn't a rule, it's just a sensible thing to do. Otherwise it could take us in the wrong direction.
If you genuinely believe there's no way whatsoever to gain an idea as to if a manager will be a success, then we're never going to find common ground. Appointing a manager for no other reason than them not being the incumbent is as irrational as it gets.
Rolling the dice isn't proactive though, it's just irrational. That could easily cause more damage, as our most recent caretaker did.
The folks you've mentioned are in the position they are because they aren't prone to irrational knee-jerk reactions. I expect they'll replace the manager when an option they believe to be better becomes attainable, and not before.
I think you missed the joke
I don't want to throw another season down the drain, but I even more so don't want to throw multiple seasons down the drain, which is why on balance I think we'd be better off waiting until summer.
As I've said repeatedly though, I'm open to be convinced. Who would you replace Ten Hag with immediately, and why would that be better than waiting until the summer and getting a top candidate in?
We've already done that.
There is no point waiting until the summer. It'll be another season wasted by then.
Yeah I think that’s a very valid point which isn’t mentioned enough. One of the things that stuck with me is that during the summer is that the club seemed to be saying Ten Hag is the best manager available for us for now, it didn’t come across to me as if the club are giving unconditional backing to Ten Hag. The fact they extended his contract might not necessarily mean they’re not preparing to wait for what they think is a better candidate. I think the light at the of the tunnel for us as fans is that the club at least seem to have created a football structure required to be successful, which I think has been the root of the problems on the pitch.
The bit in bold may be true, but it isn't enough by itself. Rangnick met the same criteria, but nobody in the dressing room would listen to him beyond a single half against Palace. We've had similar experiences under Moyes, Van Gaal, and Mourinho. There's a very good chance that the lesser lights in your list like McKenna or Frank would be completely ignored. There's so much pressure at United, it's crushed managerial legends, most talented but less established managers wouldn't stand a chance.
In terms of the candidates you listed that are more promising - Nagelsmann, Emery, Amorim - how exactly would we go about getting them immediately? I think it's especially naïve to expect Emery to bail out on Villa in the Champions League where he has a huge amount of credit built up, to join us in a comparatively worse situation. Amorim is also in the Champions League. I think with both of them the amount of money it would cost to get them on board at this time would be too much to fit with the INEOS approach to not get ripped off. We refused to be held to ransom for Ashworth, choosing to go without instead, so I expect we'd rather wait to get the right manager in than go back to being shaken down.
Still, it all comes down to what the INEOS team think is the best way forward. I'm happy to trust them to make the good, well informed decisions, we'll have to see what happens.
The problem with this argument is that since Ten Hag has been in charge, Ten Hag has been the 2nd most successful manager in England in terms of trophies won. I.e., doing impressive things is not good enough for Manchester United. We’re not going to win the league or the CL by being harder to beat.
Casemiro can play those passes actually; he does it every game.
He switches off and makes the wrong decisions sometimes, we have seen it many times last season. Bad decision making.
You don‘t play the pass when it isn‘t on. Pool‘s pressing was good, but we made the mistakes they capitalized on.
I get you trying to defend Eth, but if you see the top teams playing, their midfield is not so far apart that a cruise liner could go through it without issues.
That is the problem with posts like these. All the blame on the quality of players and none on the suicidal tactics. We have played better football with worse players in our side.
There is no way on this Earth that other PL managers play the maniac tactics which Eth played last season. Bruno playing as almost a second striker is also not the preferred method of midfield deployment in most PL teams, let alone the top ones. Someone like Odegaard, who is very similar to Bruno in his role as a 10, also plays like a proper midfielder under Arteta's style. Yet we have you here saying that other PL teams play like us.
I was joking refering to his press conference... I actually wish they would sack him in the morning.
These two are a bit reminiscent of late stage Oasis where the Gallagher brothers couldn't stop arguing.
Pure insanity. Pogba at one stretch that lasted close to 12 months produced more than Kevin De Bryune but he never recieved anything close to the same plaudits KDB was adorned with
The other day I had lengthy discussions with fellow posters. It got passionate but I started thinking about it over the course of today. Some posters felt I was trying to whined people up because I'm a new member. It wasn't about that at all.
Firstly, I'm here the same reason as all of you - we share the same passion for our love for United.
I may have been a little blind sided to how poor we are. I only go to OT once or twice a season, sometimes three. I run a small business in Ireland and United is my escape. When I start to get burnout, Manchester is my place to let off steam. A few drinks in the Blaize, a walk around the stadium grounds eating a burger and then the match. I fecking love it! I've been to enough games where its not really a novelty and when I'm there, I want to see good football.
I think my biggest reason for defending Ten Hag is quite simply, probably hoping by sticking with a manager success can come. Like Fergie. I know Fergie is a different breed and not comparing Ten Hag to him.
I really feel and maybe some of you will agree - I wanted to see a manager here that the players don't get sacked. But I understand that its down to how the players play and that's where the manager comes in. I think because Fergie was there for so long, seeing United go through managers like other clubs - it's now what we are about.
Although it was two cups, one in each season - it was nice to see some success.
The club has gone through a huge overhaul with players and executives behind the scenes. Do I think Ten Hag is right man to steer the ship? I honestly don't know. My thinking now is get to 10 games. That's enough time to get the squad fit and for new players to settle and if the style of football isn't progressing by then and we aren't getting results and look like we are going nowhere then sack him.
One thing we can agree on, it will be bittersweet when United are on top again - whomever the manager will be.
Anyhow, just wanted to get that off my chest.
Firstly, I'm here the same reason as all of you - we share the same passion for our love for United.
I may have been a little blind sided to how poor we are. I only go to OT once or twice a season, sometimes three. I run a small business in Ireland and United is my escape. When I start to get burnout, Manchester is my place to let off steam. A few drinks in the Blaize, a walk around the stadium grounds eating a burger and then the match. I fecking love it! I've been to enough games where its not really a novelty and when I'm there, I want to see good football.
I think my biggest reason for defending Ten Hag is quite simply, probably hoping by sticking with a manager success can come. Like Fergie. I know Fergie is a different breed and not comparing Ten Hag to him.
I really feel and maybe some of you will agree - I wanted to see a manager here that the players don't get sacked. But I understand that its down to how the players play and that's where the manager comes in. I think because Fergie was there for so long, seeing United go through managers like other clubs - it's now what we are about.
Although it was two cups, one in each season - it was nice to see some success.
The club has gone through a huge overhaul with players and executives behind the scenes. Do I think Ten Hag is right man to steer the ship? I honestly don't know. My thinking now is get to 10 games. That's enough time to get the squad fit and for new players to settle and if the style of football isn't progressing by then and we aren't getting results and look like we are going nowhere then sack him.
One thing we can agree on, it will be bittersweet when United are on top again - whomever the manager will be.
Anyhow, just wanted to get that off my chest.
Why should anyone spend the time trying to convince you of anything?
if ETH is smart he’ll change his tactics/system. Arne slot told everyone how to beat us in like 2 mins. He broke down our tactics and knew how to get around it.
This is an indusputable fact, in every generation of managers there is usually one or two who make it whilst others fall by the way side. But clubs don't stop trying because landing the next big one will have a bigger upside than the potential loss of taking a chance on one, as long as you move on quickly.
My point was more in reply to the narrative that there is no suitable replacement so we should allow Ten Hag to bleed the club to death. There are so many factors and moving parts that you just don't know which is which. Ruud, for all his weaknesses, he has two things going for him - goodwill of the fan base and a knowledge of the club, these things helped Ole succeed here.
So you just never know, even if you bring Guardiola here he can fail miserably and McKenna could succeed. That's no reason to continue crippling ourselves by keeping a failing manager, we should just avoid ever going all in on a manager by giving him vetoes and spending half a billion on his personal preferences.
There are multiple interviews from opposing managers from last season breaking down how to beat us. It isn't a new thing. At all. Which makes it all the more damning.
Ye but we’ve slightly changed systems and tactics this year. Slots the first one to call us out on it. We press a lot higher with the front 2 this year.
I think this touches on part of the problem. To paraphrase as I can’t remember the wording
“A United loss is a bigger news story than a Man city win”
“Manchester United are still the blue chip English football club”
Every player and manager who comes in is expected to help United become great again.
I think this club is too big for him. His idea on doing a good job here is miles away from what the public expectations are. Especially in your 3rd season. United should start title challenging soon. Ten Hag thinks it’s ok to be behind city and just win the odd cup
I don't think Ten Hag actually believes what he's giving the press for whatever it's worth. Every manager under the kosh comes out with utter nonsense. Not that I agree with that approach but just putting it out there.
We played a more defensive brand of football under Mourinho & Ole, and look where that got us. And yes, the scatter gun approach to buying players which we’ve seen for the past decade has resulted in a squad not fit for a big club like Manchester United. That’s not exempting Ten Hag from criticism, but describing the reality that any manager at the club will have to deal with.
Ten Hag is making a conscious choice to play in a way that loses games. There is no pot of gold at the end of that rainbow. If he prioritised tightening up the midfield and building play from there, we would instantly look like a top 4 team.
Yes exactly that.
To be honest I try not to take any notice of what is said by not just Ten Hag, but pretty much any manager. Or player for that matter.
It is just words, often meaningless drivel. After all, they are just human and certainly not particularly intelligent and tend to say what they think we want to hear.
Pundits have it totally backwards. Erik has no future not because
1. He lost 3-0 to Liverpool while trying to be prematurely brave and playing on the front foot without having squad that can go toe-to-tow with Liverpol,
2. or because he has no style
NO! He has no future because he cannot figure out the system/style that fits his key players, especially Bruno and Mainoo, and keeps implementing "everybody bomb forward" crap easily defeated by most oppo managers or "park the bus" low block that can only win an odd game here and there
The real problem is how he plays Bruno, and consequently Mainoo. It was pointed out by people who actually watch and analyze games (hint: therefore not Neville or Caragher) that Bruno is too advanced. We do not need free-roaming, undisciplined #10, instead we need to pull Bruno farther back and let him direct play from deeper, earlier in the build-up. Bruno CAN DO IT, we have seen it in couple games but he is almost never asked to play like that
Basically, we need two #8s, Bruno and Mainoo, where actually it is Mainoo who operates closer to the box most of the time, but they should also interchange to make things less predictable. Ugarte can sweep right behind them and in front of mobile CBs
Our full-backs need to also stop bombing headlessly forward, rather one staying a bit behind when another is attacking
Overall we need more balance and more cohesion but more than anything we need Bruno in more pulled back, disciplined, better defined role and our midfield to play more like box-to-box partnership rather than vertical line of 6-8-10
This is key tactical adjustment that is painfully needed. This is more how top clubs like Arsenal and City play, and yet it is a tactical necessity Erik shockinhly cannot wrap his mind around
He also needs to implement rotation for this system where Bruno can be subbed by Mount in this system. Mainoo can even be subbed by Zirkzee playing deeper, immediately giving us more options
In short, Erik is incapable of identifying the sustained system that works against our rivals and best utilizes our key players, Bruno and Mainoo. This is why he is failing and there is no fix in sight.
1. He lost 3-0 to Liverpool while trying to be prematurely brave and playing on the front foot without having squad that can go toe-to-tow with Liverpol,
2. or because he has no style
NO! He has no future because he cannot figure out the system/style that fits his key players, especially Bruno and Mainoo, and keeps implementing "everybody bomb forward" crap easily defeated by most oppo managers or "park the bus" low block that can only win an odd game here and there
The real problem is how he plays Bruno, and consequently Mainoo. It was pointed out by people who actually watch and analyze games (hint: therefore not Neville or Caragher) that Bruno is too advanced. We do not need free-roaming, undisciplined #10, instead we need to pull Bruno farther back and let him direct play from deeper, earlier in the build-up. Bruno CAN DO IT, we have seen it in couple games but he is almost never asked to play like that
Basically, we need two #8s, Bruno and Mainoo, where actually it is Mainoo who operates closer to the box most of the time, but they should also interchange to make things less predictable. Ugarte can sweep right behind them and in front of mobile CBs
Our full-backs need to also stop bombing headlessly forward, rather one staying a bit behind when another is attacking
Overall we need more balance and more cohesion but more than anything we need Bruno in more pulled back, disciplined, better defined role and our midfield to play more like box-to-box partnership rather than vertical line of 6-8-10
This is key tactical adjustment that is painfully needed. This is more how top clubs like Arsenal and City play, and yet it is a tactical necessity Erik shockinhly cannot wrap his mind around
He also needs to implement rotation for this system where Bruno can be subbed by Mount in this system. Mainoo can even be subbed by Zirkzee playing deeper, immediately giving us more options
In short, Erik is incapable of identifying the sustained system that works against our rivals and best utilizes our key players, Bruno and Mainoo. This is why he is failing and there is no fix in sight.
If I could I would upvote this post, very well put.
Especially that you wish everything could be as if a new Fergie has arrived, but likely that wish isn't coming true.
Troll Football is just ABU 'bants' filler.
Any serious United fan should be ashamed of endorsing it, even for the jolliest of japes.
The point being we don't want to waste any seasons, so succession is paramount.
Fact is United are not replacing EtH as much as they are replacing Ferguson, yet again. There is no discernible replacement so knee-jerking it will lead to Ineos having a three year period in which to cultivate a mediocrity.
Whatever your opinion on EtH's performance, you need to find a manager who will have United in title races and the CL's business-end. It is 'knee-jerk' to sack without securing a suitable replacement in this regard.
If you do think top-four is all we need going forward, there are quite a few coaches who can do this for you, only ten Hag is proven as one of them. As, Ineos might claim, is Gareth 'Two Finals' Southgate.
Yes. It is too big for the playing squad, also. Including senior staff. Quite a few of the fans, too.
Not sure if people have accepted the impact of the last decade, yet. Some still believe Fergie Time is just right around the corner and this or that 'chancer' is depriving them of their birthright.
It could take another decade, at least, to reach par. Definitely longer if Ineos fluff their lines. It's why they're reluctant to rehire.
EtH is about our level at this stage. A good cup coach and a solid patsy for our unrealistic edifice. Tactically infirm albeit able to motivate somewhat. Will only be sacked belatedly.
Not expecting much of any potential successor.
Managers over the kosh come up with nonsense. Football is not so interesting it can generate genuinely meaningful headlines. Read any article and it virtually is exposition.
Enforcing pre and post match pressers is crucial to the brand. The sport's allure is chiefly hyperbole. Media sources know this.
It was a good one, but I'd advise caution to the notion 'when we are top again'.
There is no guarantee this will absolutely happen.
Furthermore, if we are on top, it's never enough. We have to prove it again in the next season. Over and over and over.
I completely agree with that and this works in pretty much any industry. If you have someone that’s actively making your organization worse, you strive to replace them as soon as possible.