I'm not so sure deluding himself into thinking his job was secure would make him stupid to be honest.
Erik ten Hag | 2024/25 | Sacked
- Thread starter Cheimoon
- Start date
- Status
I'm not so sure deluding himself into thinking his job was secure would make him stupid to be honest.
The style is in attack based on a quick vertical passing game in order to beat the opposition during transition and in defense it's a mid block with central pressing from the forwards.
Yeah that’s what I thought, just wanted to be sure…
Well most Sunday league teams will have a way that they play or try to play.
Usually when people use that as a criticism they are using it as short hand for "ineffectual and illogical style of play" which would be more accurate for us.
Exactly. We have a style of play but we are not good at it. And we are not good at it due to how it is implemented and executed.
Nailed it.
Strange how some can't grasp this simple fact.
We finished 2nd and 3rd in the league under him, scored more goals and played better football than any of his predecessors or successors in the post-Ferguson era. You can make the argument that none of those managers were good enough, and that may well be a valid argument, but the only part of the Ole run that was awful was that final season after Ronaldo joined.
Saying he was one of the worst things to happen to this club when Moyes happened, Mourinho blew up and the likes of Rangnick and Ten Hag have stunk it up since is hyperbolic nonsense.
Other 3 are
You ain't wrong but get the ball forward as quickly as possibly and win the ball back as quickly as possible is almost too simple to be considered a style of play (in my book). It's playground rules hidden behind football terminology.
I am not sure our squad is good enough for top 4.
City, liverpool and arsenal squads are better by far (and with better managers too).
How many united players will get in Aston villa first x11? Lisandro and maybe Bruno?
How many in Newcastles? The same 2+ De Ligt?
Ten Hag is not only very poor in tactics, but his eye for talent is embarrassing.
600m in 2 years and we are stuck without a capable striker, pensioner in the middle and a clown goalkeeper. Depressing
Kind of but a style is in fact the simplistic description. Within styles you have a multitude of tactical goals and tendencies. Anyone should be able to spot a style within minutes, tactics and strategies within a style are what requires more time and precision.
Well the point was that things can be dressed up a certain way when you have an agenda.....
Maguire was the target, but Woodward was the one who negotiated badly, and it's on Woodward that we spent so much on him when we could have gotten him a year before under the previous manager for about £30-40m cheaper.
Antony was the same thing, Murtough baulked at the ~€60m price tag, couldn't provide any workable alternatives, and panicked and went back for Antony when Ajax were in a much stronger position and was forced to pay over €90m.
Fortunately, it looks like we won't have to put up with that kind of approach any more.
We clearly have a coaching issue and I say that as someone who has always backed ETH. Even keeping aside the individual errors by Casemiro, surely it has to be coaching instructions to find a line breaking pass immediately after gaining possession.
The coaching and structure have to suit the players who are on the pitch and not so wedded to a structure that everything else is disregarded.
The coaching and structure have to suit the players who are on the pitch and not so wedded to a structure that everything else is disregarded.
That's a fair point, there is potentially a cost to keeping ETH if we don't improve. So it's about balancing that cost with the cost of other scenarios, such as a caretaker coming in and taking us even further south, as our most recent caretaker did, or permanent manager coming in and achieving largely the same result, but being expensive to move on if they we don't see them as a long term target, etc.
Really it's all a balancing act, my opinion is that I don't see anyone immediately attainable, who is willing to come in as a caretaker, who will improve things (football wise yes, but the pressure would crush the vast majority of applicants).
If we can convince Nagelsmann though, I'm all aboard.
The managers would have been briefed about the prices and could have said no to have used such a big % of the transfer kitty.
If you somehow think that every big news agency and even the cafes transfer forum know the prices but the manager is left out of the loop then I dont know that to tell you.
You clearly have forgotten all context within those seasons. We had many dark moments and you’re living in denial. League finishes didn’t tell the full story like how we were 14 points behind city at the end of the season we finished second after being top around Christmas…
Sounds like you’re trying to shift the blame on Ronaldo to block out the reality Ole is a shit manager.
He couldn’t coach so he played a low block and counter and hoped no one noticed. He also destroyed the dressing room by promoting a toxic atmosphere and empowering losers. He lied to players and selected out of form players with injuries over superior players.
I could go on but a simple google search could remind you. Our rivals loved Ole.
Ten Hag wasn't unheralded at all, he had an impressive CV from Ajax to point to, a club with very high expectations at least domestically who hadn't been on top for a while, and he put them back at the top resoundingly. He also had experience in the coaching atmosphere at Bayern, a club with similarly high expectations and pressure as we have at United. This wasn't a big break, it was a step up, one that made sense as his record pointed to a reasonably good chance that he'd be be successful. He also reportedly was really impressive during the interview process. It certainly wasn't out of nowhere.
I'd be absolutely fine appointing someone from the new wave of managerial talent that you speak of, as long as there's a sensible case to be made that they could handle the job and make a success of it.
Well of course, offering the manager a choice between their main target for a silly price or nobody at all is going to result in them picking the former. That isn't a gotcha.
This club has burned through money due to Woodward's and subsequently Murtough's awful approaches. It's not a manager's job in the modern game to be a scouting system, they generally aren't good at it, that's why it's important to have a structure around them to help with stuff like that (which we now have, and have seen the rewards almost immediately).
No one knows how anyone will perform given all the intricacies involved. Sometimes it's just plain luck, Wenger had a bigger coaching pedigree than Zidane but only one is going down in history as a multiple CL winning coach. There was no scientific method by which one could reasonably argue that Zidane was the right pick.
For all we know we could appoint Nicky Butt and he will shock the world. There is no settled science on this but what has always been clear is that a failing manager must leave and new ideas implemented by someone else. Wasn't Kovacic Flick's boss? But who is now getting jobs with the NT and Barca whilst the other is in the glue factory?
Alonso and McKenna may have let their big break pass them by when they didn't make their big moves. This season may not be so great for them and by this time next year there are new kids on the block. That's how football is both magical, fickle and cruel. A player touted for big things gets injured and another takes his place then blows up.
You can mention the style of play or lack of but when you have players like Rashford it won’t work. Alls it takes is 1 bad egg and the system fails or doesn’t work consistently. When the style works though we look really good. We seen glimpses in the Final when we passed through city, played 1 long direct pass and we score a beautiful team goal. The players mentality is a big issue.
Honestly I don't know how many times I have to correct this strawman, it's getting silly. At no point am I assuming the next manager has to be perfect, I just think some thought should be put into the decision, and we should appoint someone with a record that suggests they could do the job here.
You're right about what INEOS can do, but managers can take us backwards as well as forwards, just throwing them at the problem could mean we take longer to get back to the top. Fortunately, INEOS don't seem to be as reactionary as folks on here would like, and so are sticking with the manager until they've identified a replacement that we can reasonably expect will improve things.
Well the current one is taking us backwards more than anyone could imagine, so the odds are the next one could perhaps at very least slow down that process. Honestly I would expect virtually anyone to be a better option now and at least stop causing further damage. We are already the laughing stock of everyone anyway so may as well appoint Allardyce.
Zidane had a very important feather in his cap that very few managers do though, particularly for the Madrid job, in that he was a club legend and would immediately command the respect of the huge egos in the dressing room, which was particularly important at the time as Benitez received very little respect from them. It was a gamble, yes, but there was some thinking behind it.
Not very many of the long shots work out though, we tried the same with Ole, who again had the same effect on the dressing room by virtue of being a legendary figure within the club, but he hit a ceiling in terms of how far he could take us, and we didn't really progress under him in terms of the squad or style of play, so it amounted to effectively a waste of 3 years in our quest to get back to the top. We're running out of time we can waste by making more flawed appointments.
It’s a style. Just a shit, ineffective one that’s poorly set up
So many of the 'next big things' have failed over the years as well. Villas Boas was touted as next Mourinho and his career at the top was quite short lived in the end. De Boer looked brilliant at Ajax and failed miserably at Inter and even Palace. Laudrup was once considered among top coaching talents while at Swansea and even linked with United. Marco Silva failed at Everton after looking brilliant with Watford.
ETH himself is on that list, he seemed great at Ajax.
Hmm I think on average Ten Hag and Moyes are worse pretty clearly, even if I had huge issues with Ole. I guess you can point to the cup wins to put ETH above but I would rather watch an Ole team over a Ten Hag team any day and he was generally much more consistent in the league until the Ronaldo year meltdown.
It's actually worse when we scrape a piss poor win and it wildly sways.
Up to 30% after we grab a last minute equalizer against Southampton. Corner turned.
40% if we win after last minute fluke goal, having been battered all game long.
De Boer was sacked after 5 games at Palace. It's wild that our club loves to play the long game with managers who clearly aren't good enough.
Some tend to struggle with that. Both managers and players have limits, they may and generally look and perform well at a certain level but are totally out of their depth at an other. For players people are happy to claim that it's because the player didn't want it enough or because he earned too much, when it's simply a case of reaching his limit, the same is true for coaches.
Most players and managers will fail at the highest level, that's why it's recognized as the highest level.
Imagine if we get a pair of 1-0 wins against Southampton and Barnsley. This place will be awash with people proclaiming it's proof that we are "improving" and need to trust "the process".
Seems like you love going around in circles.
There is no rule that you need to find a better manager before firing the current one for doing a poor job. That rule is something you created in your mind and using that as a base to argue retaining ETH.
An interim manager can be of lower level than the current one. A new permanent manager can be a new guy to the league, who can be successful or fail.
Especially when no one actually knows who is a better manager in a given situation until that situation occurs.
Summer literally ended last week.
So you’d throw away a whole seasons worth of disjointed and low level football instead of acting proactively and rolling the dice? That is ludicrous.
Thankfully INEOS, Ashworth and Berrada won’t think the same. A few more losses with terrible on pitch performances within the next month and he’ll be gone.
- Status